Talk:Cheese/Archive 2

Cheese is typically made by butchering animals
And by butcher I mean in the traditional sense of the word - one must butcher a calf to obtain rennet. Most of my friends have no idea this is how their favorite cheeses are made. I would like to propose a change: "then the addition of rennet completes the curdling" to "then the addition of rennet, a curdling agent typically obtained from the stomach of a calf, completes the curdling." This clarifies the next sentence which talks about vegetarian rennet. --Silver442n (talk) 21:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Joseph Harding
I would like to include the work of Joseph Harding in England in developing modern processes in cheese manufacture in England ref: http://www.ashmanor.com/history_cheddar.html. Any objections???

Big Man Bill/ RMAX
'''Center for the B-T-W Foward/Guard for the B-T-W''' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.127.88.130 (talk) 15:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

MEAT?
IS CHEESE CONSIDERED A MEAT? Well no. it's actually considered as a vegatable! Although some people considerate an animal or alien! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.44.250.83 (talk) 22:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC).

(personal attack removed)

No. It's a dairy. ~Crowstar~ 15:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Ummmmm

Who do you know that actually thinks cheese is a meat? And why did you say it was a vegetable? Its a dairy product.

The smartest people sure do show themselves on the Internet.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.102.82.68 (talk) 17:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

no way man its a meat you all have been told a lie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.81.44.96 (talk) 01:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Target for Vandalism?
For some bizarre reason, it seems that this article (from a glance at all the reversions of late) is of special interest to the dimmest of wits. Perhaps it should be protected from anonymous edits, perhaps more. --Kaz 14:21, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

CHEESE ROCKS AND U KNOW IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.99.81.159 (talk) 21:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. My favorite article (looking at the edits) is living hell for the 'bots that patrol Wikipedia, due to the moronic people who inflict vandalism on the page. Also, (looking at the edits) most all (it's now semi-protected) of the vandals are registered users. I think this page should be further protected. I'm very annoyed by the fact that I'm agreeing that an article on a wiki about cheese (of all things) should be protected, but it seems to be the only way to make the "dimmest of wits" stop.

Thanks, CheeseGamer 23:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm a cheese fan, and will now be contributing my efforts to watching this article for vandalism. And I also agree: after looking at the edits, I question the intelligence of the article's average vandal. It's like someone is handing WP editing capability to 7- or 8-year-olds or something? Seriously! I suspect it may be grade-school kids in the library, discovering Wikipedia for the first time. And of course, there's always that one little weenie, the one who says, "Hey, look, you can change stuff on this website! And you can put whatever you want!!" but never once realizes that there are other people involved.. Weasel5i2 (talk) 18:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

cheese affecting dreams
~i think it is all in your head. If you think you will have bad dreams, you probably will. if that makes sense to anyone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.5.160.202 (talk) 21:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

it is fairly widely accepted that cheese affects dreams, making them kinda freaky in cases. that is why i looked up this article but didnt find anything within regarding dreams....

is it part of the opiate effect? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.9.229.170 (talk) 23:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC). cheese dont affect dreams

I love cheese! I could eat it for lunch every day.... but my personal experience is that if I eat it at night I have bad dreams. This is what you call "Original research"... can't write it in the article without documentary evidence! --Amandajm 11:35, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I love cheese too. I've never found it to affect my dreams especially. Here's a link to the British Cheese Board which did a study suggesting that different cheeses will have different effects on your dreams, but won't give you nightmares. http://www.britishcheese.com/news.cfm?page_id=240 Jon5 11:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * My experience with cheese is similar to Jon5's. Perhaps the affect of cheese on sleep varies from individual to individual, as well as flavor to flavor.--69.234.209.104 (talk) 20:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you have to be a bit careful interpreting the results of the 'study' - it was done by the British Cheese Board - hardly impartial observers. There is also no indication of the quality of the study. There is no indication of a control group or how those involved in the study were recruited: for all we know, they are all cheese enthiusiasts on the British Cheese Board's mailing list! Also - would you expect 200 people to have even a single nightmare in a fortnight? I have perhaps one every year or two. Let's be honest, it's a rubbish source of data and the article should note its shortcomings. PsychoticSock 18:13, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Certainly the source needs to be considered here, since nobody would want to eat something that causes nightmares. In their shoes, one would want to be very careful making any statement that might become the latest rumor on Facebook. So you actually have to have respect for what they *did* say -- it goes pretty far. The article cited talks about specific dream effects of particular cheeses. If they'd had legal council -- well, they might have been advised not to print it. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 04:21, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

BCE to BC
Everyone knows the BC/AD dating system, the BCE/CE system is an obvious ripoff of it. The correct term is BC or AD. The BCE/CE system is the same system, but with junk names attached. I strongly suggest that you change the references of "BCE" in this article to "BC", and also those of "CE" to "AD". It might not be politically correct, but since when has Wikipedia ever been politically correct? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.220.204.53 (talk) 00:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC).
 * Agreed. BCE/CE is stupid and most of the world have never heard of it. In fact there's no need for AD either. Years before 1 should be BC and years thereafter should just be the year without further annotation. Should we change it? 86.31.35.135 (talk) 21:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No, please don't. As per WP:SEASON: "It is inappropriate for a Wikipedia editor to change from one style to another unless there is a substantive reason; the Manual of Style favors neither system over the other." --BorgQueen (talk) 03:57, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The substantive reason is that the majority of readers are unfamiliar with BCE terminology, so give them something they understand. 86.31.35.135 (talk) 22:00, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Obviously, the consensus here in Wikipedia is that you shouldn't change it only because you think "the majority of readers are unfamiliar with BCE" (which I disagree, by the way). Try to push your idea like this user did and you might be blocked for disruption. --BorgQueen (talk) 14:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, looking at your edit history I'm sure you'd jump at the chance to block any user who dared to be so bold as to make such a change. I didn't realise it was such a big issue on Wikipedia, but looking into it further there seems to a concerted attempt to impose, or maintain, political correctness. 86.27.228.214 (talk) 20:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the catholic church. We will use BCE and CE. —Ƿōdenhelm (talk) 17:37, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Just for the sake of fairness: If the article is directly related to Christianity, there is nothing wrong with using BC/AD. But not this article. --BorgQueen (talk) 17:41, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

"BCE" was introduced in 525 AD (heh) according to the BCE article.. I think that gives PLENTY of time for the phrase to become known.. I'm for using both in WP articles in an equal and un-religiously-biased fashion. NOTE: I use "BC/AD" myself, rather than "BCE/CE", simply because it's what I was taught first. And I agree with BorgQueen: it should depend on the context. In the end the goal is to have the article be as reader-friendly as possible, which means no biasing for any reason! Be as universal as possible! At least, I think so. Weasel5i2 (talk) 18:59, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Cancer
I suggest editing this section out of controversy until a peer-reviewed medical source or published research study can be cited. The source link does not actually even mention cancer. Cannot edit myself due to protection. Ngaskill 22:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed per notes above. Additionally, I have found scholarly articles citing links with caseins, but none that directly implicate cheese as a factor in cancer. Perhaps if this is the assertion one wishes to make, it would be best cited with the article foe casein itself which this one is linked to. Ngaskill 03:12, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

edits please
as far as the following content: "Hard cheeses — "grating cheeses" such as Parmesan, Pecorino, and Romano — are quite firmly packed into large forms and aged for months or years" Romano is a type of Pecorino, so it is redundant to have both of these on the list. i would suggest just "pecorino romano" as it is the most well known of the grating cheeses.

and this content: "Some cheeses are categorized by the source of the milk used to produce them or by the the added fat content of the milk from which they are produced. While most of the world's commercially available cheese is made from cows' milk, many parts of the world also produce cheese from goats and sheep, well-known examples being Roquefort produced in France from ewe's milk, Peccorino Romano, produced in Italy from goat's milk." again, about the pecorino romano. first of all, it is mispelled! secondly, pecorino means sheeps milk, not goats milk. any pecorino is always a sheeps milk cheese. acozza 08:20, 24 May 2007


 * Thanks, acozza! Yes, goat/sheep.... stupid mistake! i'll fix it if its not already fixed. --Amandajm 00:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

To quote from the first paragraph: "Cheese is lighter, more compact". This line makes no sense whatsoever and is wrong in so many ways. Firstly the article should refer to denseness as that deals with mass per unit volume. (Even if we assume 'lighter' here to mean less dense then that would imply a certain mass of cheese is LESS compact than the same mass of milk.) Also as the article is at great pains to point out, there are many kinds of cheese with different characteristics - some will be denser than their milk, others less. I think something along the lines of 'more nutrient dense' is much better. (http://www.innovatewithdairy.com/InnovateWithDairy/Articles/IF_Facts_Cheese_062905.htm) Jon5 12:15, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I suppose the lightness (density) has to do with the fact that cheese has a higher fat content and lower water content than milk.....
 * OK! I just tested the theory with a piece of cheddar. The cheddar sank like a brick. No doubt whatsoever that the cheese was denser than water.

--Amandajm 03:48, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Fixed! --Amandajm 03:54, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you
What a great article. Thanks to everyone who participated. I appreciate it. 71.110.130.138 20:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

history versus origins
In this context, these headings are synonymous, and the same ground is covered in both sections, with oblique contradictions--or so it seems to me. Does anyone else feel these sections need to be combined and reconciled by a good editor? 167.115.255.20 14:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)LINKBook


 * I did quite a lot of organization here and put in headings where necessary. History is the Heading, origins is the subheading. Yes, I think maybe it does need tidying up, but I'm always loathe to chop bits that other editors have written, unless they are really off the mark. --Amandajm 15:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think I sorted it out. --Amandajm 10:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Pom Sprout's comment
Please remove the move protection of Cheese! It interferes with me. Sev Snape 03:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Why do you want to move the page? I think that Cheese should stay as it is, because Cheese (as in the food) is by far the most dominant use of the word. Alternate uses should remain on the disambiguation page. Please see WP:DISAMBIG. Andrew_pmk | Talk 03:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ignore the comment. It is from a page-move vandal. --BorgQueen 03:18, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * This is a vandal who made this comment. Please ignore, and keep the protection up. Thanks, CheeseGamer 00:04, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Obesity
The unsupported claim regarding OBESITY should be removed unless the person who posted it can provide a reference. The web page of the American Dietetic Association seems to take a different position. I can not find a study suggesting that societies with increased cheese consumption have increased obesity. In fact the highest cheese consumption countries, ie, France, Germany, et. al., are not at the forefront of the obesity epedemic.Lwready 21:02, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, not quite : in Germany, nearly half of the male population is overweight, and more than half in Greece, the country with the largest consumption of cheese per head... for female population that's respectively 33% and 36.5 %. But France, the second largest country for consumption of cheese is, nevertheless, one of the slimest developped country with only 35 % of overweight male and 20 % of overweight female :. By comparison, 66% of americans are overweight  -nearly 80 % of male...). Anyway, that proves nothing, as what makes people fat is the global quantity of calories they eat, whether it is by eating a lot of vegetables or a smaller portion of cheese... Gedefr 15:28, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

A possible external link?
Hi all, I'm building a forum just about Cheese as I couldn't find one one th web with emphasis on Cheese Making, I'd approceiate it if you added it to the links section as I believe it could be useful to severeral of your users, thanks.


 * Website & Forum for Cheese Lovers & Makers

CHEESE ROCKS!!
Chese is awsome but i think it is a dairy product seeing that it comes from cows milk. So why would anyone think that cheese is a meat?? I mean, if you think about it... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Dairy and meat are to different products. Making cheese does not kill the cow, goat or wherever you got the milk from. Unintended Disaster 16:12, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, but Cheese uses Rennet, which is calf stomachs. That kind of does kill the cow... JoeyETS 06:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Rennet can be made from vegetable sources: See rennet - Chaotic42 (talk) 05:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Bias?
This section seems a bit like advocacy of processed cheese, and especially one brand, convenintly ignoring that processed cheese is (at least in my experience) usually pretty much tasteless:

"Processed cheese is made from traditional cheese and emulsifying salts, often with the addition of milk, more salt, preservatives, and food coloring. It is inexpensive, consistent, and melts smoothly. This is the most-consumed category of cheese in the United States. The most familiar processed cheese may be pre-sliced mild yellow American Cheese or Velveeta. Many other varieties exist, including Easy Cheese, a Kraft Foods brand sold in a spray can."

Soaringgoldeneagle 12:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have fixed this little problem by removing the brand names, which are inappropriate. I don't think that we can go so far as to write into the article that true cheese-lovers wouldn't eat processed cheese in a fit. That would be POV.....my POV....your POV .... and .... I dont think I have eaten processed cheese since 1967.... not intentionally, anyway! Amandajm 14:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

"Legend"
I removed the following unreferenced assertions:


 * There is a legend to this effect, about an Arab nomad carrying milk across the desert.
 * There is a legend as to where cheese came from that says an un-named Arab nomad discovered that milk could be taken from animals, and began filling his water pouch with this milk. According to legend, one day he was out traveling when he became incredibly thirsty. He pulled out his pouch filled with milk, and the milk had separated into curds and whey.

Is this superfluous? - the article already says "&hellip;likely that the process of cheese making was discovered accidentally by storing milk in a container made from the stomach of an animal&hellip;". If not, can a reference be found, and can it be documented more elegantly and precisely? --RobertG &#9836; talk 12:50, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I found a reasonable sort of reference and will incorporate this, hopefully to satisfaction of those who want it there. Amandajm 06:03, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Does cheese SUPPLY calcium?
That cheese CONTAINS a high percentage of calcium is not in question.Whether however it supplies it is controversial.Three factors are involved: first, calcium uptake is regulated by hormones, not dietary uptake. Secondly, because of the phosphorus/calcium metabolism, foods -such as cheese- which are high in phosphorus limit absorption of calcium. And vice-versa.Thirdly, foods high in protein and acid ash likewise inhibit absorption. Drs. Bekha and Linbowiler at Wisconsin University studied young men on a standard diet of calcium intake of 500mg per day. When the protein intake was 47gm per day, calcium retention was 31 mg. At 92gm protein/day, retention was MINUS 58 mg, and at 142 gm it was minus 120mg with none of the nine subjects in calcium balance.The calcium loss was via the urinary tract. This proves convincingly that whilst cheese is a good food in general, it should not be considered in any way comparable with milk or other sources as a good source of calcium, given the usual western high protein diet. In some of the world's largest cheese-producing areas, it is not uncommon for children to fall on grass and break both wrists due to this leaching process. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Colcestrian (talk • contribs) 06:13, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Please unlock all locked pages
This has gone beyond a joke, please unlock all the fing pages, you people have obviously gone off the deep end. To paraphrase, the terrorists have already won if we have given up our freedoms. -- Planetfck (talk) 16:18, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Can't say I agree with you about that, Planetfck. I vote for leaving the pages protected. Timothy Perper (talk) 16:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The terrorists have won if we don't unprotect this article?! Personally, I would have gone for "Think of the children," but my taste in melodrama is a little less sensationalistic. — Satori Son 20:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Pages are protected to prevent them from excessive vandalism from anonymous users. This has nothing to do with terrorists. —  Wen li  (reply here) 02:28, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Error in data for "World production and consumption"
Under "World production and consumption", first table (Top Cheese Producers - 2004) error for US cheese production in 2004. In article, 4,327, but according to the source, 4,026. http://www.fas.usda.gov/dlp/circular/2005/05-12Dairy/toc.htm Further, all numbers for the European countries are for 2005, and not 2004 217.162.106.185 (talk) 10:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)jmsprof

I have corrected the USA data to 2005 since that is easier to do than reverting the all the European figures back to 2004. Of course, it would be more up to date if someone would replace all the figures with the now available 2006 figures. And it would be more consistent still if the other tables (Export and Consumption) were updated to 2006. But at least I have got it accurate now.

Spinningspark (talk) 23:05, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect information
So I'm new to the wikipedia editing thing, but there are many inaccuracies throughout the cheese article such as St. Pat being referenced as a goat cheese in an image near the 'cheeses classed by content' section, or alternately the information regarding lactose in cheese. During the creation of artisanal cheese most of the lactose is expelled when the whey is drained off. For being a featured article that is so difficult to get modified you'd think you'd have decent info to share with the world. Ever think about asking someone from the American Cheese Society or another established association to dress it up a little? Accuracy is desired after all, yes?

Gillespie1979 (talk) 17:56, 18 December 2007 (UTC)-christopher

Why is a Featured Article more difficult to modify? It is just the same as a regular article (but it might have a few more people watching over it). Do you need some help in editing?

Spinningspark (talk) 23:11, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Caption
The picture caption for curd cheese says "oven-baked to increase longevity". My thinking is that longevity is a vague word. Whilst I know what it means, I'd like to be able to click on it and find out more about keeping cheese longer! The sense that 'longevity' is a bit vague is confirmed when you click on the internal link (longevity) to view its article - which is a mess, tbh! Any opinions? Or ideas for a word to replace it? I was thinking of "increase its shelf-life" but that sounds a bit too retail :) Trouts! (talk) 17:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe change the wikilink from longevity to longevity? londonsista  | Prod  04:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Good idea. In fact, I may as well do that. Unless someone else did! Trouts! (talk) 17:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Who LOVES cheese??
Plz tell me... what type of people generally like cheese?? Nerds, weirdos, socs, rich ppl, or poor ppl?? What do y'all think?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.6.213 (talk) 00:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Uh, what does this have to do with the Cheese article? —  Wen li  (reply here) 05:22, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It would have something to do with the article, if there were particular people who like cheese, and those who didn't. Specific cheeses are an "acquired taste", but, thinking about it, that seems like a matter of familiarity, rather than absolutes. Some cheeses have high-brow connotations (Stilton, Bree), but even that seems to have to do with cost and prevalence, not anything inherent in the cheeses. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 04:30, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Place to share cheese opinions
I read through the external links on the cheese page and thought that adding a link to a new site I've been working on might add value to the page. It's basically a cheese review site where you can rate cheeses you like or hate. I thought of the idea because I kept forgetting which cheeses I like when I went to buy some at the store. This way I, and others, can record their opinions and remember the good (and bad) cheese choices.

As the fulfillment of a niche for cheese reviews, I thought it might be a good resource for the cheese article. The site is: Cheese Reviews. Any thoughts on the matter? Also, if anyone chooses to check out the site itself, any feedback would be welcome.

Resident Cheesemonger (talk) 22:32, 17 June 2008 (UTC)Resident_Cheesemonger 6.17.08


 * This wouldn't be an appropriate external link to add to the article, I'm afraid. Please see our guidelines on external links for details. Thanks, Gwernol 23:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I understand. Thanks for the feedback. Resident Cheesemonger (talk) 12:49, 18 June 2008 (UTC)Resident_Cheesemonger

Controversy Section is strangely sectioned
In "Controversy" there is a section labeled "Effect on sleep," but states that it has a good effect on sleep. How is that a controvery? Ron James 007 (talk) 18:21, 18 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It's on account of the rumors that cheese causes nightmares. The British Cheese Board published a study that, rather ambiguously, says this isn't the case. See the above discussion "cheese affecting dreams", and also read the rather interesting article cited Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 04:34, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Should add Yak Milk Cheese
Should add Yak Milk Cheese to "Categorized by content" section. http://www.tibetyak.com.cn/eng_cheese.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Galeso (talk • contribs) 16:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Sharpness
Should mention more about sharpness - what it is, how it comes about, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.184.47.91 (talk) 03:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Italian Cheese that has LIVE bugs or maggots
I've heard about a Italian cheese that has worms or bugs in it and the damn things can burrow into your intestinal system, i.e. your guts as you eat this cheese. What is it and is it in the cheese article?65.173.105.133 (talk) 05:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, done found that insect riddled cheese. Who would eat that?65.173.105.133 (talk) 06:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

In language: cheesy, cheese wagons, etc.
I don't think this section belongs here. WP is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. The subject of this article is not the word 'cheese', but the thing called 'cheese'. Though an etymology of the word makes sense in an article about the thing, I don't see that discussion of "cheesy", "cheese wagons", and "say cheese" belong here at all. --macrakis (talk) 01:08, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Need more Cheese added.
I am wondering when some of the sub cheeses will be added, I'd do it myself if I didn't disagree with a few of wiki's community standards on posting content, and sourcing referances. Some of my additions would be "Farmers", "Brick", "Cooper", Cream Goat Cheese, and more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.255.126.107 (talk) 22:47, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Cheese
Delicious food from France.

Cheese
Delicious food from France.

Cheese
Delicious food from France. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.15.175.207 (talk) 22:05, 29 September 2008 (UTC)