Talk:Cheesesteak/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Removed Passage

I removed this passage from the last paragraph of the cheese whiz section.

In Philadelphia, I’ve heard, Cheez Whiz is often considered a tourist affectation, the kind of thing ordered by a person more concerned with what people might think of him than with what he might be putting into his mouth."

I don't know much about cheesesteaks, so feel free to replace it, but that passage was so obviously screwed up that it needed to be removed. --209.117.148.2 21:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Quotes

Why the hell does this article quote people from Los Angeles and New York? Provolone is "the" cheese, it is "a" cheese that is available for use. Why is this article quoting the authority of a GUY FROM LA when the food is from PHILADELPHIA?

• Because they were the best sources I could find on the choice of cheese. By all means, find a verifiable source citation from a Philadelphian on the relative merits of the various kinds of cheese and add it to the article. It would be a good addition. But personal testimony from individual Wikipedians doesn't cut it. The precise reason I pointed out that the reporter was from LA was to enable you and other readers to take that into account when judging the source. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

• • Sorry but I wholeheartedly agree with the first guy here, noble effort to find a quote but the presence of a quote from a Los Angeles journalist here is absoultely a detriment to the article - while as a journalist for a big paper, he certainly has authority in some areas, but the guy selling pretzels on the corner has more ethos than him with regard to this subject. People go wiz, people go provo, people go american, I've seen mozzarella, there's absolutely no one cheese that can be called "the" cheese, especially given the diversity of the sandwich in Philly and its suburbs. And I can see why any Philadelphian would be insulted by the presence of a quote from a LA journo here. Add to this the fact that there is a sandwich called the "California Cheesesteak" and it is a completely different beast than the Philly steak, and this really has no place here. Flyiggsfly (talk) 14:31, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

---

Utter nonsense. The cheesesteak is a purely Philadelphian invention.

It is a cheesesteak, not a Philly cheesesteak. Those copycats trying to pass off their trash as our famous food should be able to be prosecuted for forgery. I'm moving this to Cheesesteak, because that is the sandwich's actual name. - Arthur George Carrick 04:12, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hey! The cheesesteak was invented by Franklin and two others, and there's a grease stain on a table in Independence Hall to prove it. I believe that story was even given in a documentary about Philadelphia, I think it was on the History Channel... - Arthur George Carrick 19:14, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I disagree with you. When was the last time you walked into a store and they were selling just "cheesesteaks"? I've never seen it. And besides, for us Philadelphians, we have our honor placed entirely in this food. --(mathx314) Last week at the Phillies Game i bought a cheesesteak... I don't think I have ever been to a place and bought a "Philly Cheesesteak." In fact, death to all of you who call it that. its a cheesesteak.12.160.240.155 01:58, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

As a native Philadelphian, I can unequivocally state that you would never find pepperoni or bacon on an authentic cheesesteak. On pizza, yes, but never on a cheesesteak.-- mikeheth

Never? Well, you need to get out more, or at least do some research. You can get one of each at Shorties or Fat Freddie's or Zio's. Although I'd probably never order one, this guy actually thought the pepperoni was good. Tony Luke's, Drexel Pizza, and La Pizza Nostra all offer pepperoni cheesesteaks.--BillFlis 13:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I removed the section about Jarlsberg cheese. While it may be verifiable, it was from over 20 years ago, no one in Philadelphia recognizes Jarlsberg cheese as acceptable, and the referenced restaurant no longer exists as such.

Image

Does anyone possibly have a slightly more appetizing image of a cheesesteak? The one in the article honestly looks like dogfood. siafu 19:15, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

...cheesesteak generally does. At least all the joints I've ever had it at it does. Delectable, yes, but looks like dog food all the same... --Deridolus 9 July 2005 06:39 (UTC)

I agree we could create a better pictue. Sounds like an excuse to go out to lunch! ike9898 15:14, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Theres nothing I enjoy more than spontaneously going to Pats during the early hours of the morning (its about an hour away from my house). Rest assured, next time I go I'll take some appetizing images of the steak (if I can delay eating it long enough) --Msc44 00:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I dunno if it looks any better, but feel free to use mine if you prefer it: [1]. It's already CC-licensed. —Chowbok 15:57, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

cheese used

One point of particular interest for cheesesteak connoisseurs is the choice of cheese used in the sandwich. Pat's Steaks provides the traditional Cheez Whiz, while other establishments sometimes also offer Provolone or American.

The last I knew, Pat's offered American and Provolone cheese in addition to Cheese Whiz, although the Cheese whiz seems to be preferred. Can anyone in Philadelphia confirm this? -- Temtem 19:48, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Where did you find that Cheese whiz is preferred?voice99

Pat's offers all three, saying Cheese Whiz is prefered is sort of POV. It points out that you have to enjoy Cheese Whiz to be a "Connoisseur". This is obviously not true and POV based. -- CharlieFandango

But if it is Pat's POV then it can be reported here as such; crediting a POV to its notable holder in the article is itself NPOV. — mendel ☎ 16:11, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Do you have a source for this? I don't mean to be rude, I'd simply really like to see a source with Pat stating that Connoisseurs prefer Whiz. --CharlieFandango

I found a New York Times article saying, in so many words, that Cheeze Whiz is a "sine qua non for connoisseurs." And a different article saying that Cheez Whiz is only the best of the meltables, and is used in preference to American cheese only because it melts quickly. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:21, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Would you be so kind as to provide links to what you've found? I still feel the wording is POV-ish in favor of Whiz. Having lived here all of my life I've known more people preferential to one of the other two options. I feel like these sentences:

"One point of particular interest for cheesesteak connoisseurs is the choice of cheese used in the sandwich. Pat's Steaks provides the traditional Cheez Whiz, while other establishments sometimes also offer Provolone or American"

should be amdended to place all three cheeses on the same level or removed entirely. It also makes it seem as though Pat's only offers Whiz, while others offer Whiz, American and Provolone. Thoughts? --CharlieFandango

I agree that at a minimum the line has to be changed to indicate that Pat's offers American and Provolone cheese as well as Cheez Whiz. What Pat's prefers is another matter. -- Temtem 21:18, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

The New York Times article was obtained through a ProQuest database available courtesy of my local public library. See whether you can get it through yours. I don't know of a free link. Print references are usually considered better references than web links, however. You have my word of honor that the article is correctly cited and quoted.

The New York Times article I cited second, November 16, 1985, p. 10: "About Philadelphia: Where Cheese Steaks are King, One Family Has Assumed the Crown"—also says that Pat's Steaks offers a

choice of provolone, American cheese, or —yes, that's right—Cheez Whiz, the processed cheese spread familiar to millions of parents who prize speed and ease in fixing the children's lunch. Mr. Olivieri uses it for the same reason, because it is fast.

So, the second article does not say that Cheez Whiz is better than, or more authentic than, real cheese. What it says is that it is faster to prepare than real cheese, and that according to Frank Olivieri it is better than other, unnamed fast-melting cheese spreads. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:44, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for you pains in gathering that info Dpbsmith. I think you've helped prove my point that Whiz is considered good for it's speed. Otherwise it's upon the same level as american and provolone cheese. I think then that we're both in agreement that the these sentances need some editing to reflect this balance? --CharlieFandango

Definitely. I've tinkered with it accordingly, see what you think. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:16, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I like it. YOu are both a gentleman and scholar. --CharlieFandango

Let me be the Philly dickhead (after all I did creat the Eddie Savitz article). This Cheese section is for the birds. What is the purpose of having an L.A. food critic talking about his cheese and some douche from NY talking about Jarlsberg? WTF is Jarlsberg? People from Philly know that you can order Whiz, American, Provolone and maybe Mozzarella and that's it. I am not even going to approach the topic of the proper roll which everyone knows is the key to the sandwich. All this other stuff does not belong or should be listed under "Sh*& steak & cheese sandwiches from outside Philly" or something a bit more appropriate.

I will sadly admit that this is the most passionate I have ever gotten over any article on wikipedia but the fact that the word Jarlsberg is in the article is a disgrace. Anyway being from Phill I am parochial by nature and I don't need outsiders telling me that what is appropriate is regional. The latest edit that what constitutes a "Philly Cheesesteak" is regional is a joke. If it is not from the Philadelphia metro area or the Jersey shore then it is a Steak and Cheese sandwich. I would argue that The cheese section should have the Oliveri paragraph maybe another on typical cheeses considered appropriate in Philly and then go to the Kerry paragraph that is a classic, maybe the greatest thing the Daily News ever wrote. Interested to hear some feedback. Regards--Looper5920 11:22, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Also if anyone knows anything more about them I just created a Amoroso Baking Company page. If anyone wants to chime in on the Philly roll this might not be a bad place to do it.--Looper5920 12:09, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Ed Rendell, when he was still mayor, gave a hilarious speech (I heard a snippet on the radio) as to why other cities cannot make a proper Philly cheesesteak. (My recollection is that it was to a convention of nutritionists.) His key points were: (1) they use good meat; (2) they drain the grease; and (3) they use real cheese (not CheezWhiz). My haphazard research failed to find it on the web, but I think it would make a nice quote to include. BillFlis 15:42, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Comparison table removed

I'm removing this table as unsourced and not meeting the verifiability policy. Please do not reinsert unless sources for the facts in the table can be provided. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:35, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Material removed

A lot of talk goes in to who makes the best steak. Here are a few characteristics and comparisons of different steaks.

Characteristic	Pat's Steaks	Geno's Steaks	Steve's Steaks
Steak	cut up into small, thin pieces; unseasoned	long, uncut, thick pieces; seasoned	long, thin, fatless pieces; unseasoned
Onions	mixed in with steak; sweet taste	underneath meat; spicy taste	above meat and cheese
Cheese Whiz	Kraft brand; on top of steak	generic brand; under steak	generic brand; above steak
Bread	hard and firm	soft, with unique taste	soft yet firm

Why removed

As noted in the discussion above, this material does not meet the verifiability policy, which says that "This means that we only publish material that is verifiable with reference to reliable, published sources" and "The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain."

Note that the personal experience of individual Wikipedians, or even the consensus view of a group of editors, does not constitute a verifiable source according to the policy. The reader must be able to trace every fact to a published source outside Wikipedia.

When factual information seems to be undisputed common knowledge, there may not be any rush to apply the policy, but it is clear, from one of the references the article does cite, that this is not the case here.

Our article says Pat's slice the steak thin: "cut up into small, thin pieces". But one of the sources we do have in the article, to http://www.hollyeats.com/Philadelphia.htm , has a review of Pat's that comments "To my taste they slice the meat too thick."

Thin or thick? Which is correct? I don't know. I do know that we have a fact that is not only unsupported by a source, but at variance with one of our sources. That justifies removing the table now rather than later. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:35, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Come on, we are talking about Cheesesteaks, for crying out loud, not National Defense Policy! Its FUN to have the table in, for both natives (myself) and non. I'd add building decor- I personally can't stand the garish Orange of Geno's, plus I think Pat's has cornmeal on the outside of the roll? Redneb 00:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it seems a bit heavy for cheesesteaks but my problem with it was with where does it stop? People kept adding extra shops. If we did one for every shop in Philly or even the top 10 it would be to much. Best to just leave it out. Might be better as prose under each shop's individual listing.--Looper5920 00:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

We're talking about an encyclopedia, for crying out loud, and it says at the bottom of every edit box that "Content must not violate any copyright and must be verifiable." Where in the verifiability policy does it say that content doesn't need to be verifiable as long as it's about a trivial topic, or that unverifiable content is fine as long as it's enjoyable?

I'm all in favor of a table of this kind, but the entries in it must be sourced. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

And what happens when someone posts information that is true and useful but never before published? If the information is original information and wrong, let the readers of Wikipedia correct it, but don't delete it because it does not reference a citation that may not yet exist. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mikeheth (talk • contribs) 22:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC).

When someone posts information that is true and useful but never before published, it is eventually challenged and removed, because Wikipedia does not accept original research and requires that all the content in Wikipedia be traceable to published sources, per the verifiability policy. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for disseminating previously-unpublished information. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

---

I wouldn't know how to add this myself, but this article really needs to mention the dificulty of getting a reasonably authentic cheesesteak outside of Southeast PA or New Jersey. This was even a plot point in one episode of the sitcom Fresh Prince of Bel Air. At one point, someone had brought Will Smith's character a "cheesesteak" (and I use the term loosely) from a local L.A. resturant. He immediately dismissed it, stating "That's not a Philly Cheesesteak. If that was a Philly Cheesesteak, it would have soaked through the bag by now."

A "Cheesesteaks in Popular Culture" section would be a good place for that, as well as the little Mayor Rendell speech I mentioned above, if we can find the text. Also, Rendell, while governor, made a bet with Massachusetts' Governor Romney over the Eagles-Patriots Super Bowl; Rendell's side of the wager, a cheesesteak, was met with Romney's reply that they have "no nutritional value." See why other places can't make 'em? They don't understand 'em! BillFlis 00:10, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Cheesesteaks elsewhere

Clarification: The about.com article does seem to support my general assertion in paragraph 1. I quote: "You see, other cities have cupcakes and "soft pretzels." True, they're nothing like ours, but they have them. But people in other parts of the U.S. often don't even know what a cheesesteak is. No, they're not Steak-Ums. Steak-Ums are a substitute - like Egg Beaters are to chicken eggs.

Real cheesesteaks are cooked fresh, covered with American cheese, provolone or Cheese-Whiz and rest in a roll dripping with grease. Sound disgusting? You're obviously not from this town."

Also, you're right in that it doesn't back up my assertion about American (in fact, it contradicts it)... but I grew up in Philadelphia (well, right outside of it, but my mother's family lived in Fox Chase) and I think you will, as a native Philadelphian, agree that if I went to South Street and asked for American instead of Provolone I'd probably not be alive to be able to write this. :) But yeah, if I can find a source specific to the cheese (and I see from the above discussion that this has been quite a violent struggle) then I will delete that reference.--Caliga10 18:20, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what I know, it only matters what can be verified. And I'm sorry but I can't find any on-line menus from cheesesteak joints that don't include American cheese. Pat's, Geno's, Jim's, Steve's, Tony Luke's--they all offer it, and they're all well south of South St., which is only the beginning of South Philly. Chink's in Tacony offers only American. Youse can look it up.--BillFlis 19:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, let's assume my memory has been malfunctioning then and I shall delete the cheese reference. I could swear it's not usual to eat it with anything but provolone and cheese wiz, but I have not lived in Philly since 1998.--Caliga10 19:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at what the Pat's King of Steaks cheesesteak recipe. It's from their own website and it says "Cheese {we recommend Cheez Whiz®} American or Provolone works fine." I had earlier found a New York Times article with an interview with Pat Olivieri in which he said the reason he preferred Cheez Whiz is that "American cheese takes longer to melt," which seems to me to confirm the authenticity of American cheese. Finally, while I'm not a connoisseur of processed cheese food products, I would have thought that Cheez Whiz was essentially the same as American cheese, just processed to a softer consistency. This is all secondhand... I don't know Philadelphia and don't know much about cheesesteaks. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced folklore

I'm removing this:

According to the folklore of the Milano family (8th & Federal Streets, circa 1910-1940), one Salvatore Milano, paternal grandfather of Kensington historian Ken Milano, was to have gone into business with Olivieri. At the last moment, Milano pulled out of the deal and started his own shop nearby, near to 6th & Catherine. Needless to say, Pat's is the "King of Steaks" and Milano is now unknown.

It's had the "citation needed" tag on it for a long time and nobody has provided a source. Per WP:V (and the "no original research" policy, Wikipedia articles can be derived only from published material. If this story hasn't already been published in a reliable source, it can't be included in a Wikipedia article. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:36, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Tourist trap; authentic cheese, again

Recently added:

Despite this, many Philadelphians dismiss boh Pat's and Geno's as tourist traps, pointing out such disappointing features of their cheese steaks as the use of Cheez Whiz over real American cheese.

I'm removing it from the article and putting it here pending discussion and provision of a source.

Given the total number of Philadelphians, this statement is of course vacuously true: there are no doubt "many" Philadelphians who dismiss them as tourist traps and no doubt "many" who patronize them loyally. What we need here is a sourced statement from a reliable source suggesting that most Philadelphians think that what these establishments serve are not authentic Philadelphia cheesesteaks, but have had their recipes altered to appeal more to non-Philadelphians.

The somewhat legendary Cheesesteak Project by local food critic Craig LaBan in the Philly Inquirer supports the idea:

If you are a visitor, a newly minted Philadelphian, or a night owl with a 2 a.m. case of the munchies, it is more likely that you have been initiated into the rites of steakerie at the corner of South Ninth Street and Passyunk Avenue.

LaBan also mentions "...two other tourist favorites - the dry hamburger-like steaks on squishy rolls at Jim's on South Street, and the bland, water-splashed skinnies at Rick's in the Terminal Market..."

I do not think that the notion that Pat's and Geno's are "touristy" implies that they are serving inauthentic or altered cheesesteaks. It's more that the locals usually have an allegiance to a lesser-known shop and see these "big name" shops as part of the tourist experience or fallbacks at 2AM on Christmas Morning when nothing else is open. I imagine Chicagoans feel the much the same way about Pizzeria Uno. Jzerocsk 20:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

As for American cheese being authentic and Cheez Whiz being inauthentic:

• I've seen various remarks on this very talk page about American cheese not being authentic. By people claiming authority as Philadelphians.
• Pat's and Geno's both offer a choice of Cheez Whiz, American cheese, and provolone, so what is the issue here? If you order it with American cheese, does the availability of Cheez Whiz as an option make the flavor of your American cheese different than it would be if Cheez Whiz were not available, and if so, how? Is Pat's and Geno's offer of American cheese a bait-and-switch deception (i.e. do they pressure customers into accepting Whiz)? Do Pat's and Geno's use a variety of American cheese inferior to the American cheese used in authentic cheesesteak eateries, and, if so, what exactly is the difference?
• What is "real American cheese?" American cheese is by definition not real cheese; it is a processed cheese food product. I believe that the only difference between American cheese, Velveeta, and Cheez Whiz would be the amount of oil, affecting the room-temperature consistency and how fast they melt. In fact our article on American cheese calls out Velveeta and Cheez Whiz as varieties of American cheese. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:03, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The bottom of the Processed cheese article states:

Despite this usage, American cheese also has another definition. It can also refer to a mild, pale white to yellow cheddar. This type of cheese is not a processed cheese, and is considered by many Americans to be the "real" American cheese, to which the orange-colored processed cheese is a pretender. Real American cheese is typically sliced to order in delis, usually very thinly, as a cold cut. The Philadelphia-born cheese steak uses real American cheese, (though can be found with the processed variety outside of Philadelphia).

J.reed 04:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Chink's Steaks?

I'm dubious. One of the references mentioned in an HTML comment, http://www.phillymag.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/article.view/articleID/9a9a5c98-4edd-4e4f-9e6f-2409d42cd0de awards Chink's 3 (out of a possible five) "clogged arteries." True, he gave Geno's only 2.5 and Pat's only 2, but given the presence of one 5, four 4.5's, and four 4's, it's not clear that Chink's has any special notability.

How many Best of Philly winners are there? If there's only one a year it might be appropriate to present a list of the winners for the past ten years or so, but I think we need to avoid the tendency for this article to degenerate into collection of unsourced opinions and short personal reviews of individual editors' faves. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:35, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Best of Philly Awards fall into several dozen categories (which you can find at phillymag.com, along with the winners by year), which usually include Cheesesteaks and possibly one or two others that a cheesesteak purveyor might be eligible for (Tony Luke's once won for "Best Sports Bar", I think). But within each category, there is usually only one winner, never seen more than two, sometimes none at all (category not listed for that year). Philadelphia Magazine gives them a plaque, and of course the prominent review in the Awards article, both of which they're usually proud to display. I definitely think they're worth mentioning, especially in articles having a strong Philly connection, but I wouldn't use them as the basis for a list of what to include. As to Chink's notability, I wasn't the one who added it to the list here, but I think its longevity gives it some cred--evidently the store hasn't changed since it opened over 50 years ago, making it kind of a landmark, which I think is more of a reason to list a store here than whether its steaks are "good." Chink's also serves as a prominent example of a store that doesn't offer Whiz or provolone (to counter what some "experts" have opined here as to what constitutes a "proper" cheesesteak). Furthermore, it's well north of South Street! And I wholeheartedly agree with you about the unsourced opinions here.--BillFlis 14:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

This is getting out of hand

We need to come to a consensus on what Steak shops we are going to put on this page. I think 3 or 4 have been added in the last day or two. Given enough time maybe every shop in Philly can be listed. Why not add in the suburbs too and make this article absolutely massive. I recommend Pat's and Geno's, maybe Jim's and Tony Lukes and if other's want to mention their local places then start another page for Cheesesteak shops in Philadelphia or something to that affect. Interested to hear other people's thoughts.--Looper5920 22:01, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

These lists are always problematic. Most most unbaised way to deal with it is to have no list at all. Of course, I agree that a short, select list would be ideal, but understand that it will get new additions from now until forever, because there are always new Wikipedia users. ike9898 22:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I suggest Pat's and Geno's, period. I imagine that sources can be found that cite these two in particular as "the famous ones" or "the rivals" or "the tourist traps."

I maintain that everyone will agree that those two need to be included, and nobody will agree on the others. I'd also accept a simple list of "cheesesteak establishments that have won the Best of Philly award."

Notice that Steve's and Chink's Jim's and Tony Luke's and Larry's and Mama's and Explorer's Den have no source citations at all. Pat's and Geno's aren't very well sourced in their own sections, but are mentioned in sourced items elsewhere... for example, the Kerry contretemps took place at Pat's. BillFlis says Chink's and Tony Luke's have won Best of Philly awards (although he hasn't sourced this), which might be used to warrant inclusion. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I gave the source of the Best of Philly Awards as phillymag.org. Weren't you able to find them? Do I have to spoonfeed you the URLs of the individual pages? Sheesh! Go to the library. At least what I put is verifiable, if not by a lazy person like yourself. Just about the rest of what's here is complete crap, the opinings of armchair experts with no credentials except a claim of being "native Philadelphians" (oh, what an ignorant bunch we are!), let alone signatures. OTOH, I don't think winning a BoP Award is enough for inclusion here; a shop should have a sort of landmark status--longevity, popularity (which, without some survey, has gotta be POV), whatever. I have no problem with Pat's and Geno's--tourists know their names even before they come to town (for better or worse, I add). Let's leave out the discussion of which one is "better", that's entirely POV, unless you mention a BoP Award, which has a shred of legitimacy. Who listens to critics anyway? (And I mean professional critics, not the slobs here.) Also, I cited a bunch of links about Chink's that cited original links that were no longer valid (what can I do?); I still think they had some foundation, unlike most of this article. Sorry if I picked on you, but I'm a bit frustrated by this article too.--BillFlis 01:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I was able to find many references to Pat's and Geno's as a famous pair. I was also able to find many Web references, probably none qualifying as reliable sources, that ring many changes on the "tourist trap" theme. (They're tourist traps... in recent years locals have come to regard them as tourist traps... despite their reputation as tourist traps they're good... etc. etc.) Dpbsmith (talk) 00:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't even bring up the tourist-trap issue; it's entirely POV. With carefully crafted wording, however, it might be possible to subtly convey that idea, but it would never stand up to the ceaseless editing by the ham-handed "editors" we have here, some of whom think those places are absolutely fabulous, mainly because they provide sustenance to drunks at 3am.--BillFlis 01:41, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I did the deed. I hope those URLs actually work. They seem to work for me. Now, friends: this is why we need citations. The article has said for a very long time:

(Steve's Prince of Steaks) The shop has won the "Best of Philly" Award for "Best Cheesesteak Shop" several times, and is patronized by many Northeast Philadelphians.[2]

But, the link (to the "hollyeats" website), while giving Steve's high marks (five grease stains), says nothing about Best of Philly. Now the actually Best of Philly section of www.phillymag.com is a bear to navigate, and can only be searched one year at a time. I clicked on every year and searched on the word "cheesesteak." Unless I missed something, Steve's never came up. So, they may have won a Best of Philly award, but not for a category containing the word "cheesesteak." Unless, as I say, I missed something. Can anyone confirm what year(s) Steve's won Best of Philly, and for what? Dpbsmith (talk) 19:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

See? Those URLs are like a mile long, which is why I didn't bother to quote them. Philly Mag is primarily print, so the Awards are verifiable that way. "Verifiable" doesn't necessarily mean "you can find it on the web". URLs tend to change anyway.--BillFlis 06:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, "verifiability" means you have to cite the sources, meaning IMHO if you want to use a print source you still need to give a citation, but to periodical name, volume-and-number (or month-and-year), and page number. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

P. S. So, did Steve's win a Best of Philly award, and, if so, for what? Dpbsmith (talk) 23:35, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Passyunk Ave.

Is it pronounced "Passy-Unk," three syllables, or "Pass-Yunk," two? Dpbsmith (talk) 02:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Well both ways you have it are 2 syllables. I don't know, i have always pronounced it "Pass-y-unk" though when i say it has a tendency to come out "Pass-y-yunk", and y usually sounds like a e, but i could be wrong, i have a tendency to pronounce come things a bit quirky. I ahvbe also herd it pronounced like "Pasie-Unk" or "Passa-Yunk" --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

On the street (pronounced "shtreet"), you'll hear "PA-shunk AV-()-noo", where what goes in the "()" is less than a schwa, just sort of a preparation for the next syllable, and what Boothy said only for emphasis or clarification or in the 'burbs. "I said PASS-ah-YUNK AV-eh-NYOO!" (Fluffyans know how to talk, they just don't bother.) The accent on the "a" is peculiar but what you'd expect; start to say "passion" (but not "pass", which has a very different "a" in Philly). The most confusing intersection is Shunk and Passyunk--they rhyme.--BillFlis 06:17, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The morning traffic reports call it Pass-Yunk. -anon

Either pronunciation is acceptable. It just depends on where you're from and how thick your accent is.72.78.154.193 (talk) 11:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Recently removed stuff on eateries

I'm putting the material removed by dpbsmith here for future reference, or for possible inclusion in a proposed article on Philadelphia Cheesesteak Eateries.--BillFlis 11:43, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I should have done this myself. Sorry. OK if I trim out the stuff that was not removed from the article, leaving only the individual eatery descriptions. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi - I came here looking for specific information on cheesesteaks to settle a discussion. I think the article suffers for not having this section on famous eateries. This is exactly what I was looking for. I think its a shame that someone has to go publish it somewhere so it can be referenced in wikipedia on the front page. And by the way - the article needs to be cleaned up now that this is removed "pats" is referenced in the first section of the article but not explained at all. I had to come to the discussion page to find out. --67.101.88.222 03:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure what you mean: Pat's is described within the History section, which is also where Pat's is first mentioned in this article. It is again mentioned in the "Famous locations" section, which provides... well... info on famous eateries. Am I misunderstanding your comments? --Bossi (talk ;; contribs) 05:34, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Famous Philadelphia cheesesteak eateries

Jim's Steaks

Jim's Steaks was founded in 1939. Originally started in West Philadelphia, Jim's expanded to the eclectic South Street in the 1970s, with another branch in Springfield, Pennsylvania in nearby Delaware County, and a fourth shop in Northeast Philadelphia in Roosevelt Mall.

Steve's Prince of Steaks

Steve's Prince of Steaks, obviously a take on its competitor Pat's, is lesser known in Philadelphia, but still a favorite in many neighborhoods in the city's northeast section. First opened near the outdoor Roosevelt Mall (at St. Vincent and Bustleton Ave), the company soon opened a second shop at Comly Avenue and Roosevelt Boulevard.

The shop has won the "Best of Philly" Award for "Best Cheesesteak Shop" several times, and is patronized by many Northeast Philadelphians. [3]

Chink's Steaks

Chink's Steaks is a small steak shop in the Tacony section of Philadelphia. Though smaller and open fewer hours than its competitors, it is highly regarded across the city, including a Best of Philly Award by Philadelphia Magazine in 2002. When it opened in 1949, Chink's sold only plain (cheeseless) steaks, but now offers (only) American cheese. Named for its late founder, Samuel Sherman, who had gone by the nickname "Chink" since a boy, Chink's has been the subject of a recent controversy that its name is a racial epithet, offensive to Asians.

Tony Luke's

Perhaps better known for their roast beef and roast pork sandwiches, Tony Luke's Beef and Beer Sports Bar's steaks still pack a mean (and greasy) punch. The original store, located on Oregon Avenue near Front Street in South Philly, was awarded Best of Philly by Philadelphia Magazine in 2005. Other locations include Center City Philadelphia, Citizens Bank Park (home of the Philadelphia Phillies), New York City (Manhattan), and most recently, the University City section of Philadelphia.

Larry's Steaks

Larry's Steaks is a well-known and established steak shop in West Philadelphia, known most notably for its "Bellyfiller" 6 foot hoagies and steaks. Opened in 1957 by Larry Morelli, it was once one of the best known and the first to have television advertising (featuring its best salesman Larry Morelli) in the 1960s and 70s. It is well known among West Philadelphians and people come from miles away due to its fame. It was originally located near Overbrook High School during the days of Wilt Chamberlain, but has since moved to 54th & City Avenue accross the street from St. Joseph's University in Wynnefield.

Mama's Steaks

Mama's Steaks is located in Belmont Hills on the Main Line outside Philadelphia. While not as well known, it has some of the best steaks in the region and is very popular with local cheesesteak afficionados. It is also a popular place for office workers and local television personalities who work at nearby Channels 6 and 10.

Explorer's Den

Explorer's Den is a popular steak house in the Germantown section of Philadelphia next to LaSalle University. While the steaks are not as well rated as many of the places above, it is probably one of the best-known steak shops in the Northwest section of Philadelphia, especially for night owls coming home from downtown nightclubs who live in Northwest Philadelphia.

Furture articles?

Following are links to the expected locations of all of the above, to allow for easier verification of the existence of those articles:

• Jim's Steaks (a redirect to "cheesesteak" as of 30 October 2007)
• Larry's Steaks
• Mama's Steaks
• Explorer's Den

Though I don't particularly care if any of them ever get pages, I would suspect some would qualify as "notable" and I might go ahead and create stubs at some point. Or not. - SummerPhD 13:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

So far, that would be a big "not". See the topic "Best of" for more. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:54, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Optimum strategy for pronouncing "wit?"

The article says:

It is not called "Whiz with", as the guttural South Philadelphia Italian-immigrant pronunciation actually appears on menus—ordering otherwise brands one as an outsider or tourist.

But if, hypothetically, one were an outsider or tourist, which would actually the path of whizdom: to say "with" and brand ones' self as such... or to attempt, doubtless unsuccessfully, to emulate a guttural South Philadelphia Italian-immigrant pronunciation, thereby branding ones' self as an outsider or tourist poseur? Dpbsmith (talk) 19:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the article puts too much emphasis on how to say it. Truth is, the guy behind the counter doesn't give a shit. Taking the order and producing the steak is automatic because he is so skilly. He's only thinking about what he's going to do after he gets off work, not whether you have a South Philly accent, a Northeast Philly accent, or whether you are from Osaka, Japan trying to immitate a South Philly accent (probably the poseur case). Dan 05:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I would think that one is branded as a tourist by going to Pat's or Geno's in the first place. I don't think anyone gets turned away for saying "with" rather than "wit". I think a much bigger Philly faux pas is referring to Yuengling as "Yuengling" rather than "Lager." That really does brand you as a non Philly person. john k 17:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Cheesesteak Pic

That looks like a poor example of a cheesesteak for the following reasons:

• It isn't loaded with steak
• The steak isn't finely chopped
• Where are the chopped fried onions?
• It looks like someone spilled yellow paint on it -- is that Whiz or wiz?

If others agree, consider putting up a better photo. Feel free to use the photo to the right.

Dan 04:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

If you look closely, you will see that the wrapper says "Pat's King of Steaks." I don't want to get into the debate about whether Pat's and Geno's serve good cheesesteaks, but surely Pat's King of Steaks serves at least a reasonable representation of the genre? Dpbsmith (talk) 20:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC) P. S. I see onion in your photo, but the cheese seems to be rather subtle. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:36, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

That's the trick. If you go to any common cheesesteak place and order a cheesesteak, what you get is something that resembles the photo I put up here, not the photo currently representing Philly cheesesteaks in the wikipedia entry. Regardless of where the cheesesteak in the current photo is from, it does not look like your average cheesesteak. Good point about the cheese, but that is something that is perhaps unique to ordering Whiz. All other cheese is usually mixed in with the steak or between the steak and bread. Incidently, the cheese in the photo is provolone. Dan 22:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

To counter your points:

• Pat's and Geno's don't "load" their sandwiches with steak, I know of only one place that puts that much steak onto their sandwich.
• No establishment I've been too chops their steak that fine, that is a common mistake of Philly Cheesesteak immitators. They are usually the slab style as pictured, or the thin chopped style as mentioned in the article.
• Fired onions are an optional topping, you can't even tell that your picture has them unless you enlarge it.
• Thats Whiz. I haven't been to Pat's in a while, but I don't recall it being on the top either. I don't even see cheese the photo on this page, that can't be a very good representation of a CHEESEsteak.

Most of your questions could have been answered by reading the image caption. Perhaps it should be expanded? J.reed 17:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I have been to several establishments and all of the cheesesteaks at those establishments look very similar to the one above. From Northeast Philly to South Philly, from West Philly to the west suburbs -- they are loaded with thinly chopped steak very much unlike the one shown in the main page. Maybe Whiz is the standard, but most of the people I know get provolone or white American, and it is always embedded in the cheesesteak, not thrown on top of it. I guess I will just have to drive around ordering cheesesteaks and taking pictures to prove that the Philadelphia standard is not something that looks like Steak-ums. By the way, the cheesesteak in the picture I posted is from a South Philly location. Dan 22:37, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

What location? I was born at Pennsylvania Hospital and live in NJ just over "the green bridge" as I call it. I personally don't know anyone that orders provolone, its either Whiz or American. This is all a matter of personal preference. The fact that there are many sources from steak restaurant owners themselves to tourism guidebooks that either recomened or highlight the use of Whiz, I say the picture stands and we don't downplay Whiz to highlight the other two cheeses. WP:NPOV does not require an equal ammount of feature on opposing topics. I'm all for someone getting another steak from a notable establishment (namely one of the Best Of Philly winners) and taking addt'l photos. I forgot my tripod last time I went to Geno's. I'm a neutral vote on the onions, either they're in the picture or they're not, doesn't matter to me! J.reed 03:25, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Dan that I've never seen a cheese steak that looks like the one in the picture on the article. most places I've been cut the steak fine, not slabs like that. And the cheese on top is also weird. As a grad student in Philly, I don't recall people I know actually ordering with Whiz. It's a custom more honored in the breach than the observance, I think. And I don't see how showing a picture with provolone or american is "downplaying" Whiz and "highlighting" the other cheeses any more than a picture with whiz is "downplaying" provolone and american and "highlighting" whiz - why is the latter acceptable, and the former not? john k 17:38, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why there shouldn't be more than one picture. I'm convinced at this point that there is no single "authentic" version, so why not have several representative examples of the genre? The Philly Mignon article asserts that "the real controversy is chopped versus nonchopped. My grandmother wouldn't eat a cheesesteak in which the steak had been hacked up by the grill man's spatula, but my Aunt Beth prefers a Jim's-style chopped steak." This article also includes the interesting detail that Pat's does not use Amoroso rolls.

I need to confess something. I'm responsible for the "yellow paint" appearance. I photoshopped the picture currently on the main page. I removed what I thought were some gross-looking blobs of cheese on the "lip" of the sandwich, I removed some grease stains from the wrapper which, while doubtless authentic, looked unappetizing; I tweaked the color of the meat, originally a neutral grey, to put some roses in its cheeks; I removed a noticeable greenish cast from the bread and the cheese; and I made the cheese more yellow. I overdid that part. However, if you look at the original, obviously I didn't change the quantity of cheese, its placement on top, the quantity of the meat, its texture (not chopped), or the general architecture of the sandwich. If someone prefers to go back to the original image I have no objection. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:52, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, that explains it, partly. The original looks mostly better, I think, at least in terms of color. john k 19:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I, too, must make a confession. The cheesesteak in the above photo is actually a vegetarian cheesesteak. The photo was taken at Gianna's where the cheesesteak was also purchased and devoured. It was delicious. Anyway, it is a better representation in my opinion. I am against multiple photos of cheesesteaks. I am all for a photo that represents cheesesteaks found all over the city, NOT misrepresents them. People will inevitably go to Pat's and Geno's if they are tourists -- it's just too bad they can't have a real city experience by checking out other cheesesteak locations. And I KNEW J.reed was from Jersey, I knew it. Dan 07:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Pudge's (Blue Bell)

I'm moving the entry

• Pudge's (Blue Bell)

here for two reasons. First, there is a restaurant named Pudge's in Blue Bell PA and I believe that is the restaurant that is being referred to.

The qualifications "in Philadelphia" and "award for cheesesteak" were chosen carefully and I think these are reasonable limits that will lead to a fairly stable, reasonably objective list. (Philadelphia magazine awards Best of Philly awards to establishments in New Jersey, and they have award Best of Philly awards to establishments that serve cheesesteaks for reasons other than their cheesesteak.).

A restaurant in Blue Bell is not an establishment in Philadelphia and hence does not belong on a "a list of establishments in Philadelphia that have won Best of Philly awards for cheesesteak." Second, no citation showing that Pudge's has actually won a Best of Philly award was provided. But there's no point in looking for one if, in fact, Pudge's is not even in Philadelphia. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC) Dpbsmith (talk) 00:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, Pudges did win Best Of Philly in 2005 for Best Cheesesteak (Montgomery County), but it's still not in Philadelphia-Proper. Jzerocsk 19:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, but this is the "cheesesteak" article, not the "Philadelphia" or "Philadelphia cheesesteak" article. And nobody would argue that it's not a "Philly cheesesteak" just because it's sold a few miles out of town. I think people are being rather provincial here--why not at least include the whole province (Delaware Valley)? If the article is getting too long, there are better and more polite ways of dealing with it than just deleting things that people took the time to write. Break it out into another article.--BillFlis 13:22, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I have to wonder whether the difference between, say, a Boston "steak and cheese sub" (made by people of Italian ethnicity), and a Philly cheesesteak is all that much larger than the difference between the Pat's cheesesteak pictured in the article and the one pictured below by User:Dbulwink. But there are numerous references that say things like "if you haven't been to Philadelphia you haven't had a Philadelphia Cheesesteak, plain and simple."[4]

How can we define a "Philadelphia cheesesteak?" How far has knowledge of the secret spread? Philadelphia Magazine awards Best of Philly awards to New Jersey locations, too. Should we include them? If not, why not? What about a sandwich made on an Amoroso roll by Billadelphia's Restaurant in Texas, whose full name appears to be "Billadelphia's Authentic Philly Food?"[5], and whose menu claims "We'll change your y'all to yo" and has logos for Tastykake, Herr's, and Habbersett pork scrapple?[6]

I'm agreeable to anything reasonable, but I want a definition that is sufficiently clear that several different editors with different personal points of view could expect to agree on what does and does not meet the definition. What I am averse to is a situation in which anyone puts in any restaurant they like on their own personal authority. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:12, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

A Philadelphia cheesesteak is one which does not feel the need to include "Philadelphia" or "Philly" in its self-description. john k 19:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Best of Philly links

Yes, I see that the Best of Philly links I put in don't seem to be working anymore. I'm open to any workable suggestions for stable links to the Best of Philly website. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd put the citation to the print version. Anybody know what month Philly Mag gives the Best of Philly Awards? I'm pretty sure it's always the same month. Then we can put "Philadelphia Magazine, (month), (year)", with a link to the phillymag.com website. Anybody who cares to can then climb into that site on their own, and navigate away, sailor. BTW, there really should be an article on Philadelphia Magazine.--BillFlis 20:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

English only

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/14720152.htm

Seems reasonably notable to get editorialized like this, for a sandwich shop anyway. The policy probably ought to get some brief mention. Derex 17:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

So, patrons are required to speak English (and are not even allowed to point to an English description on a menu), but, at least according to our article, it is considered somewhat inappropriate to use the standard American English dictionary pronunciation of the word "with" when ordering. What's the local pronunciation of "irony?" Dpbsmith (talk) 17:06, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I think Vento's point is that one need not have the vocabulary of William Jennings Bryan to order a cheesesteak successfully. One need only learn a couple of psuedo-English grunts; that's not a lot to ask. It's worth noting that the South Philly dialect that produced "wit'" probably has a lot to do with lots of Italian natives trying their best to speak English, even if it wasn't perfect. Vento's issue is not poor diction, but instead an unwillingness to even try. Jzerocsk 19:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Vento is a fool. --evrik 16:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding cheese

Hi. With regard to all of the cheese-related discussion above, I'd like to point out that Philadelphia is a very large city of very diverse neighborhoods, each with its own unique characteristics. In South Philadelphia, Cheeze Whiz might very well be the established norm, where as in my neighborhood (Roxborough/Manayunk), American deli cheese is highly preferred and is assumed unless the client specifically askes for the, um, goopy orange crap made by Kraft. :) The point I would wish to make is that neither the owner of Pat's nor of Geno's should be considered the final arbiters of the proper constitution of a cheese steak as the "average Philadelphian" thinks of it. Savatar 02:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Streamlining Article

Someone above mentioned how this article is getting out of hand by listing several cheesesteak-sellnig establishments. Not only does it talk about their histories, but their personal politics. What does that have to do with the SANDWICH? Nothing. Cheesesteaks are beef, cheese, other crap, and bread. They have a history associated with Philadelphia. Any other tangential information needs to split off into its own section. For example - Geno's - especially with the now highly publicized controversy - needs its own section. Joe Vento's questionable ethics do not belong on a page about a sandwich. I am going to start this by recreating the Geno's steak page and trimming down its section on this one and adding a link. Godheval 06:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm guilty of the overkill on the quotes showing that Pat's and Geno's have a special status. I don't object to your trimming. The reason why I did it is that I continue to seek ways of preventing this article from degenerating into a long serious of personal mini-reviews of favorite cheesesteak establishments.

I wanted to emphasize Pat's and Geno's special status to explain why it is not unreasonable to mention this pair by name in an article about cheesesteak. I wanted to underline that there really is a separation between these two and the rest, and that mentioning Pat's and Geno's should not be a green light to give dozens of others the same treatment as those two.

It seems reasonable to try to separate cheesesteak-related matters (Pat's as Whiz innovator), to Vento-related matters, which do not, and to push that stuff into a different article. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, no, here we go again

I knew it.

Other well-known cheesesteak establishments include Tony Luke's on Oregon Avenue in South Philadelphia, Lorenzo's on Henry Avenue in Roxborough, Jim's Steaks on South Street, and Rick's King of Steaks at Reading Terminal Market.

Not sourced.

These are apparently one editor's personal selections, based on his personal expertise. Original research. Unverifiable.

I bet this list expands to dozens within a matter of days.

Please, let's define some objective and verifiable criterion for inclusion.

I once again propose that to be mentioned in this article, an establishment should a) have a Philadelphia address, b) have won a Philadelphia magazine's "Best of Philly" award, c) and the Best of Philly award must be for cheesesteak. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe this article should simply not provide any sort of listing of sandwich shops at all? Jzerocsk 19:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the Dynamic Duo probably need to be mentioned in some detail... I'd be happy to do away with the Best of Philly list but if we did I think we'd have what we had before: someone sees Pat's and Geno's and says, "Oh, then we need a paragraph on Jim's" and adds one, then someone says "Well, then, we need Chink's" and adds it, and then someone says "Oh, Rocky's Steaks at 6550 Haverford Ave is better than any of them..." and we have a dozen equally-long minireviews of the stellar, the merely famous, and the 24-hour hole-in-the-wall whom locals think is better than any of them. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I replaced the sentence with a "see Best of Philly awards." I added a not-very-good source, but nevertheless a source, indicating that less-well-known local shops may be as good as the famous ones. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Alternative Names

I suggest a mention that many Philly natives refer to cheesesteaks simply as "steaks". I am admittedly a transplant (though from elsewhere in PA), but I know LOTS of people who will just say "steaks", and it is evidenced by the fact that so many places are called "_____'s King of Steaks", not "of Cheesesteaks". Seems an informative addition. Have to be careful not to add it to the names referred to by people outside of Philly, since that's decidedly not the case. --M0nstr42 18:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

• Seems reasonable, but be sure to find and cite a published source. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Philadelphia-centric bias?

It will come to no surprise to those editing this article that it is not about sandwiches throughout the world which have the name "cheesesteak" but rather that sandwich which originated in Philadelphia. Any discussions of cheesesteak sandwiches outside Philadelphia is limited to how those places imitate the Philadelphia sandwich. Since this is the content of the article, I suggest it be retitled "Cheesesteak (Philadelphia)" –Shoaler (talk) 11:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Except, there's just the small matter of the "Cheesesteak" being invented in Philadelphia. Cheesesteaks everywhere else - at least those fitting this description (and I know of no others) - are emulations of that original recipe. There is no bias. But feel free to append this article discussing how the recipe has spread across the country since its creation. Godheval 15:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Philadelphia cheesesteak and Philly Cheesesteak already exist as redirects for this article. (And now Philly cheesesteak does, too). I can't imagine a need for Cheesesteak (Philadelphia)... but... what the heck, now it redirects here, too. I don't think there's any "Philadelphia-centric bias" worth bothering about. (Although, yes, I do wonder whether a "steak sub with cheese and onions," as ordered in Boston, is a copy of a Philadelphia original, or whether in fact there have been multiple independent inventions of the food item).

But I don't think associating cheesesteaks with Philadelphia represents "bias," any more than referring to U. S. automakers as "Detroit" or U. S. movie studios as "Hollywood." Dpbsmith (talk) 16:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The cheesesteak is a Philadelphian creation. Honestly, in my belief, a steak sandwich is not a cheesesteak unless it was actually created in Philadelphia and im sure anybody who has ever eaten a genuine Philly cheesesteak will agree with me on that one.

What about the *meat*?

Not to drag up an old conversation, but after reading the article, it occurred to me: How does one slice ground beef?--MUSpud2 19:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

There seem to be several thousand words in this article about the cheese, but almost nothing about the meat other than that some places slice it thin and others thick. Surely the meat is as important as the cheese? What cut is it generally? Ie, chuck, round, etc. etc. Is it cooked at high temp, medium, or what? (Also, towards the end of the article, there's a first-person reference -- I think that this ought to be edited out. DPB, are you there? Hayford Peirce 20:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

A problem with this article has been a tendency for people to add their original research based on their asserted Philadelphian expertise/ (Even if Wikipedia allowed original research, as this talk page shows, the cheesesteak-related assertions of editors self-identifying as Philadelphians are... not always in accord). Interestingly, the Pat's website recipe is rather vague about the meat and how it is cooked... I'm sure anything verifiable about the meat would be welcome...

By the way, NPR (and other news sources) had an obituary, an audio obituary in NPR's case, a few days ago for Harry Olivieri, who died a few days ago. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:57, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

The key is probably the meat -- that's why they keep mum about it. Could it be like Chinese restaurants, who take cheap beef and tenderize it before cooking it, so that round is as tender as filet (easy enough to do, but tedious.) Who has the strength of character to clean up this article? It really needs a lot of work. Yes, and the NYT had both a small obit as well as a pic of the place, with, I think, a major competitor visible in the picture right across the street. Hayford Peirce 23:10, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

other locations

This, in the article's comment about Los Angeles: "along with other steak shops in L.A. such as Markie D's in Culver City and in Venice Beach and South Street located in Westwood and Burbank)". I haven't lived in L.A. for many years, but I *did* live there once and knew a lot about its geography. Culver City exists, and Venice Beach exists. And I suppose there's a South Street somewhere. But (since I used to live in Westwood) I'm pretty sure there's no South Street in Westwood that ALSO exists in Burbank. In fact, it's impossible. So what does this sentence mean? Unless it's explained, or modified, within a reasonable period of time, I'll delete it. Hayford Peirce 04:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

  ["South Street" is the name of the steak shop and should have been in quotes]  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.164.118.29 (talk) 05:09, 21 March 2008 (UTC) 

Ordering etiquette

From the article:

In shops in Philadelphia that sell primarily cheesesteaks, there is defined protocol for ordering a cheesesteak, consisting of the desired cheese and whether fried onions will ("wit") or will not ("witout") be added. For example, "I'd like a provolone wit," is an order for a cheesesteak with provolone cheese and fried onions on top.[2] Orders for additional toppings, such as sauteed mushrooms or peppers, are usually added at the end, e.g. "I'd like an American witout and peppers." Some shops will refuse or delay service to customers who order incorrectly. Shops that sell cheesesteaks in addition to other items, such as pizza shops, lunch trucks or delis, usually do not follow this etiquette.

I don't feel like rewriting this, but it is inaccurate in scope. The only steak shop I know that follows this South Philly speak is Ginos, to wit: asking for something wit something is simply a display of the typical urban Italian American accent. The other aspects of the protocal are specific to Gino's and possibly Pats, and those two are just the tourist traps of steak shops; they do not represent typical Philly shops, although this article keeps trying to assert otherwise. 70.20.208.14 07:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't feel like rewriting it either—I feel like deleting it! Instead, I clarified the "reference", heh-heh.--BillFlis 10:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

could somebody please delete that vandalism? I would, but i don't know how.

Either a source needs added for the sentenace that currently reads "Some shops will refuse or delay service to customers who order incorrectly." or else it needs deleted. I'm leaning towards deleting. Which shop(s)??? It's just makeing it sound like cheesesteak shops in Phily are run by soup nazis, which is definately non-wiki.

Jon 18:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly my feelings. If some serious citations don't crop up pretty soon I'll just delete the whole thing. Hayford Peirce 18:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

>> Etiquette has nothing to do with it. It's much more akin to the 'soup nazi'. This is escpecially true at 3AM in the world of 'Pats/Genos'. You have about 3 seconds to step up to the ordering window, blurt out 'Cheeze Wit', then step to the side. If you take longer, you get grief from the lady behind the window, and the drunks behind you in line. It's all part of the show. (and yes, at 3AM...there's a few hundered folks there, all participating in the show).

Cheesesteaks elsewhere

This section has become another unreferenced list of personal faves, inserted on the authority of individual editors. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I am going to start removing the non-encyclopedic links per WP:SPAM unless someone provides a reason why they're encyclopedic and worth mentioning in this article. I expect I'll start doing this next week. --Thisisbossi 19:03, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Go for it! I've removed a bunch over the years but many of them sneak back.... Hayford Peirce 19:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'm removing the unsourced material. I'd suggest, as a very minimum, that a cheesesteak restaurant should at least cite a review in a newspaper or magazine; references to the restaurant's own website may meet reliable source guidelines for the establishment's existence, address, phone number, etc. but are surely not a reliable source for its local reputation.

One could imagine a Wiki in which people share their personal testimony and experiences, on their own authority, but Wikipedia is not a social networking site or a web forum about restaurants. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I got a couple more. Can we trim down the multiple external links for Geno's and Pat's, or are they all absolutely critical that they be included? --Thisisbossi 04:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced material moved here for discussion

There are numerous places to get authentic cheesesteak in Los Angeles. The Cheesesteak Factory chain introduced Angelenos to the cheesesteak, and they (along with other steak shops in L.A. such as Markie D's in Culver City and in Venice Beach) have been regarded by some travelers as close to a cheesesteak made in Philadelphia. Residents in Orange County enjoy cheesesteaks at Philly's Best, which serves the sandwich on Amoroso's rolls along with other favorites like french fries with Whiz. Carl's Jr.resturants also serve a cheesesteak burger that tops a regular hamburger with the ingredients of a cheesesteak.

In San Jose, CA, Jersey's Bar has been serving cheesesteaks for over 25 years.

San Diego's Gotham City Pizza has Amoroso's Rolls shipped in from Philadelphia.

Plano, TX is home to Fred's Downtown Philly Cheesesteaks. The shop is owned by a North Philadelphian and has Amoroso dough shipped fresh and baked in town. They are highly regarded in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area as THE place to go for an authentic cheesesteak in a small shop surrounded by Philadelphia sports memoribilia. http://www.downtownphilly.net

Denver-based Taste of Philly also stocks the Amoroso's Roll and is a favorite of many former Philadelphians.

Northern California is served by the The Cheese Steak Shop, which uses Amoroso's Rolls.

PhillyPhlava of Tampa, Florida, is another restaurant serving cheesesteaks on Amoroso's Rolls.

Varieties

Per this edit, Hayford Peirce added several {{Fact|date=August 2008}} tags. I understand his intentions, and therefore I feel that a more applicable debate would be with regards to what makes a variation notable or not; not necessarily whether any factual information is needed (it's tough to argue that they indeed exist). Is there a more appropriate tag, perhaps, until some agreement is made as to what varieties are notable for mention in this article? --Thisisbossi 05:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Consolidate into a varieties paragraph, noting that there are more than just what is mentioned. Chicken, pizza, and hoagie are notable varieties, in my opinion, though specifics like "Buffalo" should be left out. J.reed 06:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

"This Is My Cheesesteak"

Moving this here for discussion.

Starr and his $100 Cheesesteak is featured in Ben Daniels' new documentary "This Is My Cheesesteak."

No sources. In its present state, suggests either a prank or a promotion for a non-obviously-important documentary. imdb lists no such documentary. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

It's probably a reference to this uncompleted film. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Bush

I removed the statement that Bush "ordered 'Whiz wit' like a local." Bush gave a speech in which he said that he got his cheesesteaks whiz wit, it is true. However, the Delaware County Daily Times reported the next day that Bush likes his cheesesteaks with American cheese and without onions, based on the say-so of a restauranteur from Essington who actually made cheesesteaks for Bush. I think it best to remove the statement entirely - it is certainly misleading otherwise. john k 03:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, whoops, I forgot to give the link: [7]. john k 03:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Type of Sandwich!!

This article seems to miss the point. The cheese steak is not just a "sandwich" per se, it is a TYPE of sandwhich. So is a 'steak' in philadelphia. For example, its not called chicken cheese sandwich, its a chicken cheese steak. or buffalo chicken cheese steak, or pizza steak, u get the point —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.20.220.60 (talk) 02:32, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

Cheese contradict

"Long-time competitor Geno's Steaks claimed they were the first to add cheese to the recipe, though Harry's son, Frank, claims he first added Cheese Whiz in the 1960's." Pat's King of Steaks

"In 1952 Pat's added Cheez Whiz to their sandwich ingredients." Chesesteak Mdbrownmsw 21:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

steak sandwich

We need to add to the steak sandwich article, after all, it is the grandfather of the cheesesteak! Tomticker5 (talk) 15:58, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Variations

This section has become the target of drive-by unsourced additions. Undoubtedly most of the variations mentioned exist, but without references it's not clear how important or well-established they are. I'm moving the unsourced items here; they should be sourced and moved back, or left out of the article. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

• A chicken cheesesteak uses thinly sliced chicken, also sautéed on a griddle. With Buffalo wings sauce it becomes a Buffalo chicken cheesesteak. Bleu Cheese dressing is also commonly offered as an addition or on the side in such cheese steaks.

• A cheesesteak hoagie is a cheesesteak with lettuce, tomato, and American or provolone cheese.

• Cheesesteak springrolls are an appetizer offered at several Philadelphia restaurants.

• A Western Cheesesteak features barbecue sauce and, typically, jalapeño or bell peppers.

• Meatless Cheesefakes are sometimes offered for vegetarians.

And again:

• A western cheesesteak has barbecue sauce, cheddar cheese, and bacon.

• A steak hoagie may have uncooked onion, tomato, lettuce, and other traditional hoagie ingredients.

Ideally, descriptions of "variants" should contain a reference showing that these are well-recognized, popular, important variants, but at the very least they need some reference. Sandwich shops of all kinds have always enjoyed creating variations and giving them names. I wouldn't doubt that there are cheesesteak shops that have more kinds of cheesesteaks than Baskin-Robbins has flavors of ice cream, but that's not a reason to list them here. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:31, 21 September 2008 (UTC)