Talk:Chef/Archive 2

Misc.
Couldnt find out how to post so Ill do it here, Isnt Sous spelled Souse? Or is tht just the Computer Not knowing like French or something to that Extent
 * No, the word is spelled Sous. Please sign you posts.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 16:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge Proposal
I placed a proposal on Sous Chef to merge into this article, as the informatihhhon exists here already, it would just be changed to a re-direct to this page.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 17:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

RfC: Chef de Cuisine vs Executive Chef

 * I am not quite sure what the issue/question is... could you post a diff of the edit warring in question?--Yeti Hunter 09:19, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The original edit was listed as Executive chef with proper citation from a well respected text on culinary arts. User:Cokehabit has edited the section multiple times after revert to Chef with information plagiarized from the BBC citation given. The issue User:Cokehabit states is that Executive Chef is an American term, used for chain restaurants and American themed restaurants which is not true at all, even if that were true the next heading which is in fact Chef de Cuisine properly cited again from the aforementioned text explains the term is used synonymously in Europe and in the United States takes care of that issue. [User:Cokehabit]]'s edit is just confusing and an infringement on WP:Copyright by plagiarizing the BBC website.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 18:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I am no expert on chef titles, but the article as it stands (06:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)) is much easier to read and understand. The earlier revision by User:Cokehabit doubles up on defining certain terms and is quite frankly confusing. My only suggestion would be to subjugate "Chef de cuisine" to a lower level headline, to indicate that it is not necessarily a lower level on the chef hierarchy, but another term for Executive Chef. The article should make clear the hierarchy and/or different jobs of different chef ranks (and can cite this adequately), and do so in a clear and understandable manner.--Yeti Hunter 06:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The information as it stands is at best from an American POV and at worst is blatantly wrong. The main chef in a restaurant is the head chef, only about 5% of restaurants actually have executive chefs.

From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/tv_and_radio/masterchef/training_index1.shtml#know_the_basics

''# Head chef/chef de cuisine: the boss. Will plan menus, hire and fire staff and deal with suppliers and manage costs and budgets. Depending on their profile and other commitments, the head chef will often leave much of the day-to-day work to the sous.'' ''# Executive chef: larger establishments such as hotels will have an executive chef. This person may have much the same responsibilities as the head chef of a restaurant but on a larger scale. They may be responsible for planning the menu and setting the agenda for the style of the cuisine served, for example.''

From: http://www.cuisinenet.com/digest/custom/restaurant/chef_ladder.shtml

''# Chef de Cuisine This is the apex, the chef whose initials are etched into the silver flatware, and embroidered onto the washroom towels. This chef has the vision, conceives the dishes, imbues the whole restaurant with his/her personality. This would be the person who appears on television. Sometimes, if need be, chefs de cuisine even cook.''

''# Executive Chef This is a nebulous title, as only the biggest, most famous chefs de cuisine follow themselves with executive chefs. Executive chefs run the whole kitchen when the big boss isn't around and are often employed when a chef has more than one restaurant. They hire and fire the staff, determine costs, revamp the menu, take care of all administrative tasks, interact with the dining room managers, and generally oversee the well-being of the restaurant. In smaller, less flamboyant restaurants, the Chef de Cuisine sees to all this, and an executive chef would be redundant.''

They are the first 2 articles explaining it in a search

Anyone who has trained as a chef knows this. Please change it to what it is supposed to be, "chef" Tanner obviously has some sock puppets by the look of it as well.

If more examples are needed just Google it or ask me.

Cokehabit 05:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * From the start, Chef de Cuisine is clearly already in the article, so you are being repetitious by adding it in again. It also states that the phrase chef comes from Chef de Cuisine and as well that the term Chef de Cuisine is synonymous with the term Executive Chef.  I also beg to differ on this being an American POV as I have friends in Italy, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Ireland and other countries where they are titled Executive chefs.  I have also been called by many a headhunting agency for chefs in Europe looking for an "Executive Chef".  At any rate, Chef de Cuisine itself is actually a European phrase, than it is a world-wide accepted phrase,but even Executive chef is a term that is being accepted there as well.


 * Your other major issue is that you blatantly click-and-pasted information from a section of the BBC website which is plagiarism and against copyrights laws. In addition that section of the site is not put together by professional chefs, it is a life-style page, not from a professional standpoint.  I would've been at least a little more impressed if you at least plagiarized Le Cordon Bleu or the Slow Food center in Bras, Italy.


 * I also have no need of a sock puppet, I am a respected editor in the realm of food and drink on Wikipedia and have no need to hide my opinions becasue I handle all instances with a level, unbiased, educated head that follows Wikipedia policies. Please take your accusations to somewhere where the will have more meaning as they have no bearing here.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 06:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

My 2¢
Cokehabit is arguing that the term Executive Chef is solely an American term, well according to my sources that I googled (per his suggestion) I have come up with the following:

the definition of Chef de Cuisine:

chef de cui·sine /ʃɛf də kwiˈzin/ Spelled Pronunciation: [shef duh kwee-zeen] –noun,

plural: chefs de cui·sine /ʃɛf də kwiˈzin/ Spelled Pronunciation: [shef duh kwee-zeen] French. chef (def. 1).

[Origin: lit., head of kitchen] - Dictionary.com

Dictionary.com does not have a definition for Executive Chef. I tried the OED but it is subscription based.

Here is a description of the terms: The position of "chef," which comes from chef de cuisine, or chief of the kitchen, signifies the highest-ranking worker in a grand hierarchy. Initially he was in charge of running the kitchen, and, like the butler, reported in turn to the head of the household. In twentieth-century parlance, the "chef" traditionally has been a department head. Chefs de cuisine were part of the guild system, which regulated artisan practices in France until the French Revolution. Guilds controlled apprentices, the only means available for acquiring training in artisanal crafts and becoming an established craftsperson. Guilds also supervised aspects of production. In France up until the nineteenth century, maître queux, or master cooks in noble houses, were treated under a separate set of guild statutes. Cuisiniers and traiteurs, who worked alongside the urban streets, were considered another corporate group. Only after the revolution did these two groups meld, eventually leading to the identification of the chef de cuisine or head of any large establishment, public or private. As the modern restaurant became more a part of the economic culture, however, chefs de cuisine were as often found outside the kitchen, promoting their restaurants, dealing with customers, and reading and responding to profit and loss statements. The traditional tasks of over-seeing menu and recipe development and supervising the production of food as it goes out of the kitchen into the restaurant remained a vital part of their job descriptions but did not encompass them totally. In larger, more corporate environments, such as hotels, chain restaurants, and college food services, the title chef de cuisine was often replaced with "executive chef." Managing a professional kitchen revolves around a corporate-style identity as much as or more than any cultural or culinary allegiance. -Answers.com

Based on these two sections, I can read nothing about the term Executive chef as American only. It appears that the term is about a corporate position, or an executive in charge of division or group of locations. Now before you scream that the article does go on about Chef de Cuisine and America, the paragraph in the next section does list American influences, however it is about celebrity chefs.

Now here is an example of it being used in London (Not Connecticut, as in England): Darwin-born Michael Radtke, 29, is the executive chef at Novotel London Tower Bridge. He has 10 chefs in his brigade and four kitchen porters, and it's fair to say that his approach to man-management and motivation is a little different to the norm. - Michael Radtke, executive chef, Novotel London Tower Bridge

Here are some job listings for Executive Chef positions in England (Cokehabit's Home turf):
 * Job Title:Executive chef
 * Head Executive Chef in India
 * Executive Chef positions in Beijing, Ireland, Oman, Portugal, Taiwan and Singapore

Based upon these, I would say it is fairly global, not solely an American, term. Now as a person who has been in the Hospitality industry longer than Coke Habit has been alive, I have learned that the two terms are use interchangably, and Ckoehabit is in the wrong IMHO.

By the way, I am not a sock puppet, a Sox fan yes, but not a sock puppet. Read all about me here.

- Jeremy (Jerem43 08:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC))

I just ran a search at Caterer.com, a British site for food service job seekers. Their page for searching for positions by specialty does not include 'Chef de Cuisine' as an option, however, when you follow the link for Executive chef, about one out of every 30 is listed as a Chef de Cuisine. The rest of the positions, in London, Edinburgh, Dublin, Christchurch, on cruise lines, etc. (in other words, all over the United Kingdom), are Executive Chefs. Obviously, the UK job-searching site seems to consider them the same position, and Executive Chef as the more common one.

There are 12,500 matches for 'Chef de Cuisine' (exact term) in the United Kingdom through Google. There are 43,700 matches for 'Executive Chef' (exact term).

This seems peculiar, if 'only 5% of restaurants' have executive chefs. Why *would* UK websites mention them 4 times as often?

I want to see real cites to back this up, from actual industry authorities (not a BBC site for a cooking show, or CuisineNet, which is actually a dead site (if you go to the main page cuisinenet.com, you will be redirected to 'dinesite.com', and the timestamp seems to indicate cuisinenet hasn't been updated for years). Both the American Culinary Federation and the Canadian Culinary Federation have descriptions indicating that the positions are close to the same. Find me something within the industry that actually backs up what you're saying, or, regardless of the truth of it, it fails on verifiability, which is what Wikipedia needs. --Thespian 08:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I never said that the term wasn't used, I said that it is mainly an American term, most used when a chef of note has his name to a restaurant but as he has more than one he uses a protege. Web sites are obviously being thrown around liberally so i'll add 2 more: http://www.successfulnewcareer.co.uk/chefs.htm t 12,500 matches for http://www.caterer.com/JobSeeking/job33887584.html The latter is from caterer.com (if BBC wasn't good enough).

A note was made that 'Chef de Cuisine' had 12,500 matches in google and that 'Executive Chef' had 43,700. Well the term that I keep saying is used is Head Chef and/or Chef de Cuisine and head chef gets 1,450,000, over 20 times what "executive chef" does. 

I suggest a rewrite with Executive chef addressing the larger establishments with more than one cuisine type (like a large hotel) and with a note that it is also the title give by well known chefs to their protege.

Cokehabit 14:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Please to note, the matches that I pulled up were for the UK only. Not Google.co.uk searches, but advanced searches, on Google, for matches that were only within the United Kingdom. When I do that for 'Head Chef', I get the same number of matches as I did for Executive Chef, *however*, unlike Executive Chef, they're almost completely ads and resumes, while Executive Chef had restaurants, chef/restaurateurs, culinary schools, as well as resumes and job ads (again with a lot of overlap, where it says both head chef and executive in the same ad to describe the same position). Again, it is up to you to prove that the additions and changes you want to make are verifiable, and you're not doing that. You're providing no industry standards for your point. Find me a culinary federation, find me an actual culinary school that cites the information you've decided to add. Wikipedia is not about 'truth', though we like to be; it's about verifiability, and you're providing case by case examples, not things that apply to the industry in general. --Thespian 21:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Alright, well we can talk about "Head Chef" then, but that is not what the edit was that you were placing in. The term "head chef" is a redundancy, as Chef de cuisine translates to "Chief of Cuisine", then Head Chef literally means "Head Chief", which makes no sense whatsoever. I'll agree that I have seen the term used, but grammatically it is incorrect and I have also rarely seen the term used and even if it is used, it is not a "professional" term.  The more proper way of stating that would be simply Chef but as in France there are other positions with the term "chef" as it is used as a ranking term, this does not work.  The term "Executive Chef" came about not only from an American standpoint, but from a worldwide standpoint where chefs had been for years trying to be sought as professionals and not tradesman, this includes England, France, Germany and most other European countries, hence the creation of the "Master Chef" exam.  That is also why there was the creation of different professional societies during the 19th-20th centuries, the more well known versions of today are the World Association of Chefs Society, Societe Culinaire Philanthropic, American Culinary Federation and there are many many more.  The term Executive was coined to bring it to a professional level, rather than a tradesman level.  Read Amy Trubeck's Haute Cuisine, Stephan Mennel's All Manners of Food, Priscilla Parkhurst Ferguson's Accounting for Taste.


 * You can not just write things into an article based upon you WP:POV based upon an area where perhaps you may work, it is a world-wide consensus based not only on Google searches and lifestyle websites. As academic works, grammatics, and professional sites discount your version, I believe you to be wrong. I almost forgot through this whole discourse that I am also a "Certified Chef de Cuisine" so if I am using an American bias, wouldn't I be insulting myself?  That is what the CCC at the end of my name stands for.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 18:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You give nothing to back up your side of this, what you are saying is just as WP:POV as what i'm saying apart from the fact that I back my side up with websites and all you say is "go read this book. Head Chef is just another name for "Chef de Cuisine" by the way.


 * I went to the "chefworld" link that was given and looked up jobs there []. Tell me how many Head Chefs jobs there are compared to Executive Chef's ones.


 * Learndirect The government's own online learning site shows the differences in income for you (the grey bit) and I quote "''Head chefs (chefs de cuisine) can earn around £30,000.
 * An executive head chef in a top hotel can earn between £40,000 and £50,000.
 * Figures are intended as a guideline only."


 * So will you tell me that both the British government and the BBC are wrong? It shouold go just as in the Brigade de cuisine system but with an additional not about what an executive chef does. The article should read like this:

Chef de Cuisine or Head Chef
 * In charge of everything related to the kitchen, including menu creation... etc etc

Executive Chef
 * Larger establishments like Hotels which may have more than one type of cuisine may have an executive chef... etc etc

Cokehabit 05:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

As for evidence, well I have given you lots here, if you want another one then the page for Gordon Ramsay's restaurant in New York gives no mention of an executive chef. There is Chef de Cuisine (head chef) though. Cokehabit (talk) 19:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * One very easy explanation for Executive Chef and a Head Chef is that the Head Chef is in charge of the day to day running of the kitchen - cooking etc. An executive Chef oversees the menu, the style of food and the costings - generally an executive chef doesn't do any cooking (or not very often anyway). Gordon Ramsay for instance would have a Head Chef in his restaurants - but since the menu is his, he would be regarded the Executive Chef.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 13:59, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposal
As the chefs titles in the article follow the Brigade de cuisine system then the Chef article should as well. An additional note can be made about the Executive Chef's role.

Agree/Disagree? Cokehabit (talk) 13:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * That doesn't actually follow, no. Not all kitchens follow the Brigade; it's a very specific type of cooking environment. The chefs titles partially follow the Brigade (there are only so many ways of saying, 'the guy that makes the sauces'), but they do diverge.


 * My interest in this is more dealing with verifiability. I want you to find me professional chef resources that indicate what you're describing (Culinary Federations, etc). I keep saying this, and you keep coming up with more third-hand examples. Not how it gets done in individual kitchens (which varies widely). Everything that you've brought up is British and tertiary (ie, the cooking industry is *not* the main bent of the BBC or the government's learning site, and indeed, as a professional designer and developer, I know that most government definitions of job sectors are useless to most professionals; they have only a vague relation to the actual field, and are used externally, but not by people with clue).


 * Chris has had to go out of town for a couple days for family issues. I'm not sure when he'll be back; there's a major American holiday this week and he may not return before it. (I, though currently in the states, am not American, and it has no emotional load for me; I'm going to pick up a pile of extra hours covering for people who are going out of town). But as an RfC, this would get shot down once handed off to other people external to it; people will either say, 'delete it, since we had the brigade de cuisine article', or point out that you are redefining Executive Chef based on a regionalism (and indeed, as I pointed out above, that regionalism is not pure, since as I said above when looking at British positions in the field, "Their page for searching for positions by speciality does not include 'Chef de Cuisine' as an option, however, when you follow the link for Executive chef, about one out of every 30 is listed as a Chef de Cuisine."). --Thespian (talk) 20:12, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have my laptop with me in New York though and certainly have a comment for this. First, in order for this to be an RFC, it needs to goto WP:RFC.  Technicalities aside, the issue with your suggestion, which Thespian addresses is that the brigade de cuisine is a unique system created by Georges Auguste Escoffier when he was working with Cesar Ritz to improve a certain style of kitchen.  The system today is still seen as uniquely French, which is why it is a major heading under French cuisine.  The system may be used in some restaurants today, but there is in no way an Executive chef in this system and as such it is not part of the brigade de cuisine article, but is part of this article because this is an all encompassing article that would consider what a chef is in any part of the world, not just one style of kitchen management.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 22:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * #1 Find me professional chef resources that show that it is correct how it is currently.
 * #2 The chef's titles follow the brigade de cuisine article pretty closely so why not mirror with an additional note about the executive chef's role.
 * #3 the reason why you don't want to do #2 is because the role executive chef is only used in very large kitchens with more than one cuisine style (such as a hotel) or in the US. It may be used constantly in the US but not everywhere else and not classically and wikipedia needs to address that issue. Cokehabit (talk) 09:44, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Apparently (not being a chef myself), I misunderstood something, so I'm going to leave the chef stuff, which I don't have completely straight, to Mr. Tanner, and instead concern myself with the wikipedia admin stuff, which most of this edited thing not deals with. As part of that, I'm merely going to point out that it is *not* the job of anyone else on wikipedia to prove the cited information that we have already provided. It is *your* job to provide the cites, since you're the one who wants this inserted so badly. And since you're insisting that what is in the article is American, I trust you'll also take the time to prove that what you're soapboxing for is, of course, not just British.
 * Because it's not true; the brigade de cuisine is ONE TYPE of organization of a kitchen, and not a terribly common one outside of formal dining. We do not mirror because that would be incorrect; many, if not most, kitchens do not use the brigade de cuisine, and it would be incorrect to simplify things in that fashion.
 * No, that's not actually why he wants to do #2, but you're not actually listening to the arguments presented to you over and over, and you've proven (because the Master Chef certification is blindingly easy to find) that you're not actually willing to do research; in addition, you've provided no other people who are saying, 'Hey, he's right.' while several people, have come by and chimed in that Christopher is correct. Groups can tend to groupthink, but sometimes, there's a reason why you're the only person fighting on side of an argument.
 * Lastly, it is NOT our job to change the article at all to match your desires. As was said on the wikipedia-en mailing list yesterday, the status quo is the rule. If you want to make a major change like this, against the predominant opinion on the talk page (see comments by YetiHunter (who commented on clarity of language), Jeremy, as well as myself (commenting as a wikignome and admin) and Chris (commenting as a professional chef)), *you* have to provide the unassailable citations to change it, we don't need to provide them to keep it the way the majority of people want the page to stay. Consensus can be changed, but you need to provide us with a reason to change our minds, and you simply haven't.--Thespian (talk) 11:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Came in from RfC. I see that Thespian has saved me the trouble. Well said. Consensus seems to be with the "executive" argument. I agree. Phyesalis (talk) 09:07, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Fine, leave it as it is but it is slanted to an American perspective. In the interests of neutrality it should be changed. That is my last comment on the subject. Cokehabit 16:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Awarding Rating Chefs
Systems that rate what these experts consider the best:

(Not an exhaustive list, please help add)

- Cuisine et Vins de France.

- James Beard Foundation.

- Bon Appétit Magazine.


 * "Chef of the year."

- TIME Magazine.


 * "America's best chef"

those ridiculous hats in both pictures
as a chef i find it not only obscene but also grossly misleading for both pictures of chefs - european and american - to have people wearing those fucking silly hats. no one in any kitchen in new york, charleston or anywhere i have ever been in wears a hat that is remotely similar. a few stuck up frenchies maybe... but 98% of the rest of the world - not happening. Please someone make this right. - joshua

christopher - after further investigation i see you have put a picture of yourself. i should have guessed. you look like a penis. i hope you're pleased with yourself. now people will think chefs all look like penises. not appropriate or fitting for a encyclopedia i say. - joshua


 * First of all, keep the tone civil. Second, I know many chefs who wear that style hat, and a number that prefer them, I personally hate that style but that's just me.  Finally, I do agree that some pics of the other styles of hats would be beneficial.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.240.57.197 (talk) 17:59, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Larger kitchens that I've worked at do still have those hats - but I agree, it's definitely a dying trend now. The most common hat is the 'skullcap' - or as I prefer - no bloody hat at all!

--Tuzapicabit (talk) 14:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Pastry Chef
Shouldn't this have a section to itself? It's quite a big deal in larger kitchens. The pastry chef would be on the same level as a Sous (and probably paid a lot more). --Tuzapicabit (talk) 14:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No. Pastry chefs do not generally make more than a sous chef, unless you have multiple sous chefs and patries are a signifcant portion of your food prepartion. Michael.Urban (talk) 17:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Executive Chef
There's no indication in the article what an Executive Chef (or Chef de Cuisine) DOES. Please remedy. Softlavender (talk) 04:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)