Talk:Chiefs of Clan Mackenzie

"Laird of Tulloch Ard"
I came across this passage researching the history of the Similkameen Valley in British Columbia, Canada on this page:
 * ''The late Alexander F. MacKenzie, the Laird of Tulloch Ard (after whom Laird Lake was named), was widely known as a “mighty hunter.” On one occasion he captured a lynx alive, a feat, that was witnessed by a party of campers from the lake.  The lynx had been attracted to the Laird’s “estate” by some choice Hungarian hares.  It was spotted by Yarrow, the Laird’s favourite dog, who soon treed the stranger.  The Laird quickly decided that the fur was not quite prime, and that the lynx should be kept alive till its pelt would bring the top market price.  Carrying a noose at the end of a stick, MacKenzie climbed the tree, faced the snarling brute, pushed the noose over its head, choked it into submission, and kept it till the fur promised the desired price.
 * ''On another occasion the Laird shot a bear, wounding it in the snout. The bear charged, and the Laird fell backwards over a log.  He managed to swing his rifle and discharge it point blank into the bear’s face.  The bear was so close that it ripped the hunter’s coat with its claws.

Lots of Scots in BC affected, or were conferred, "casual honorifics" that had nothing to do with any noble or social status in the home country. But noting the "Alexander Mackenzie" name and seeing that as a common name for clan chiefs, I thought best to inquire here as to whether this fellow was in fact a bona fide Laird. Sorry I can't provide any immigration/origin specifics.....and I hope the story itself was entertaining.Skookum1 (talk) 05:05, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Historical undisputed line - Early Marriages
It would appear that the marriages noted for Alexander 6th of Kintail and Kenneth 7th of Kintail in the Notes of the "Historical undisputed line" table are incorrect. Although daughters of MacDougall of Lorn and John of the Isles respectively are suggested in the traditional histories compiled in the 17th century, the opening of the Vatican archives has shown that these are incorrect. As recorded in Aonghas MacCoinnich (Clann Coinnich - emergence of a kindred, c.1475 - c.1514, in The Exercise of Power in Medieval Scotland c.1200-1500, S. Boardman and A. Ross Eds, Four Court Press 2003, pp 175 to 200) there are papal dispensations in the Vatican library for marriages for both Alexander and Kenneth dating from the 1460s. The first, dated 1466, states "It is supplicated for the part of Alexander Mackennych, layman and Catherine daughter of John son of Ranald, laywoman, that formerly, knowing that they were related in the second, third and fourth degrees of consanguity, they contracted matrimony publically and 'de facto de verba de presenti' and consummated the same and have remained therein for about thirty years and have offspring." MacCoinnich has suggested that Catherine (Catriona?) was the daughter of Ian Lom (Blind John), son of Ranald, progenitor of Clanranald. As John Lord of the Isles refers to Alexander as "cousin" in a charter of 1463/4, this would be consistent with the suggested consanguineous relationships. The second dispensation, dated 1465, identifies the wife of Kenneth (7th of Kintail, Coinnich a Blair) as Finvola, a daughter of Celestine of the Isles, so a niece rather than a daughter of the Lord of the Isles. There is a tradition that Kenneth put aside his first wife in the 1480s and then married Anna Fraser, daughter of Lord Lovat. "Annas Fresale" is recorded as the wife of the late Kenneth Mackenzie of Kintail in records of a dispute with David of Balnagowan in June 1494 (Acts of the Lords of Council p327). As Kenneth Og 8th of Kintail was the son of Finvola of the Isles and John 9th of Kintail was the son of Anna Fraser, they are half-brothers rather than brothers as indicated in the Notes of the "Historical undisputed line" table.Ian Macken (talk) 08:34, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

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Kermac Macmaghan, apparent ancestor of the clan
The purported connection of "Kermac Macmaghan" / Kenneth Matheson with Clan Mackenzie is incorrect. The confusion arises from a flawed analysis of the genealogies contained within MS1467 by the Reverend William Matheson (Traditions of the Mackenzies. Transactions of the Gaelic Society of Inverness, vol. XXXIX/XL, p193). MS1467, which contains the 15th century genealogies showing Kenneth Matheson to be the eponym of the Mathesons, also contains a Mackenzie genealogy. This indicates that the Mackenzies descend from Gilleoin of the Aird - gilla eoin na haird in MS1467 - who appears to have lived roughly 100 years before Kenneth Matheson. The Matheson genealogy in MS1467 contains Kenneth Matheson; the Mackenzie genealogy does not.

In fact the genealogies contained in the Black Book of Clanranald indicate that both clans descend from Gilleoin of the Aird, the Mackenzies through an elder son Gilleoin Og and the Mathesons through a younger son Cristin. Kenneth Matheson is Gilleoin of the Aird's great great-grandson and therefore third cousin to the contemporary Mackenzie chief listed in MS1467 - Angus.

I recommend the paper by David Sellar, Lord Lyon King of Arms from 2008 to 2014, (Highland Family Origins - Pedigree Making and Pedigree Faking. L. MacLean, Ed. The Middle Ages in the Highlands, Inverness, 1981) for a more logical analysis of the relationships.

I note that the Mackenzie Chiefs on this page follow Alexander Mackenzie's 1894 scheme - Kenneth, Ian/John, Kenneth, Murdoch etc, neatly avoiding the MS1467/Fitzgerald controversy which would arise if the list was taken further back. The inclusion of this link suggests inconsistency, as the (incorrect) relationship between Kenneth Matheson and the Mackenzies relies on a (flawed) analysis of MS1467. If the link is accepted, why not the MS1467 genealogy? Ian Macken (talk) 12:41, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Listen, lets just get this sorted before any trouble starts. Non of the Wikipedia articles are saying that the Clan Mackenzie chiefs are definitely descended from Kermac Macmaghan. They are just stating it as possibility based on previous sources and histories of the clan. Wikipedia is about reflecting the sources.QuintusPetillius (talk) 20:19, 1 March 2017 (UTC)