Talk:Chitpavan Brahmins

Unsourced removal
This article has the long pending unsourced material. This does not comply with the Disruptive_editing, WP:POINT, Verifiability, WP:NOR, WP:DIS. As none support Unsourced. See if anyone could support it with Policies or else mention the references or else the unsourced will be removed. Blueyarn (talk) 06:18, 7 May 2017‎ (UTC)

Skanda Purana in Origin section

 * Since Sahyadrikhanda is an interpolation, then why it's information is being even used in first place? Agletarang (talk) 18:45, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not passing any judgement on the veracity of any Hindu text, only mentioning what some modern scholars opine. Nor are we saying that this is definitely the origin - we are only stating what the scripture says about them. Different people have different opinions. For example, orthodox religious people may not believe that anything is interpolated. And perhaps not every scholar thinks that there is interpolation. Almost every Hindu scripture (with a few exceptions) has additions and changes over years. The scriptures play a very important role in the caste system. Scholars like Lars Fogelin and others believe that Puranas are not 100% mythology. They are historical+mythological but because of the mythological(or supernatural) elements added, they become difficult to interpret. That is why WP has a policy of WP:PRIMARY for using such texts in articles - we cannot quote directly from Puranas (unless the wiki page is about the scripture itself). But we can give the interpretation by a modern scholar.LukeEmily (talk) 19:34, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Quote from Skanda Purana:


 * Quote from Sahyadrikhanda:


 * Quote from outside:


 * Why should we consider it due? Dympies (talk) 16:23, 10 September 2023 (UTC)


 * , are you serious by giving some 1800s and 1900 references? We are editors, not researchers to decide validity of reliable sources. That would be WP:OR We are not using Sahyadrikhanda . We are using a modern interpretation of the currently accepted version thats available today which is a perfectly valid reference. This is perfectly acceptable on wikipedia. Did you even bother reading my previous reply? Please do not do this for everything you find objectionable.LukeEmily (talk) 05:30, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * We aren't supposed to include everything from RS. Considering the contentious nature of the origin section, WP:DUE becomes even more important. What do you say, ? Is this Skanda Purana's interpretation due enough for the Origin section? Dympies (talk) 17:25, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It is the *only* Purana that discusses the Brahmin castes of western India and has been mentioned by several sources.  We are not supposed to cherry pick based on contentious/non-contentious either. This should not be used as an excuse to remove contentious stuff. Wikipedia is uncensored so contentious or not is irrelevant. For contentious (btw, i dont think it is contentious - are you saying being fishermen is bad?) stuff we need a high quality source - which Deshpande is. Also, although we dont have a requirement for every single statement to be covered by multiple sources, the Parshuram story and the story about their origin is discussed in many sources so by definition it is WP:DUE. You had removed some edits from this page with false edit summaries. I am asking you again not to be persistantly disruptive - as you know you have been topic banned from another place. You also do not seem to know much abput this topic as you do not realize that Skanda Puran does not discuss Saraswat Brahmins(of the north) but GSBs whose brahmin heritage has been challenged by Deshastha Karhade and Koknastha Brahmins. Please check their occupations of GSB on their page.LukeEmily (talk) 19:41, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Have a look at this thesis by Urmila Patil and decide how much weight to be given to the Sahyadrikhand account on the origins of various brahman communities. Madhav Deshpande was on her dissertation committee. He covers this topic as well but the thesis has additional depth. Best regards. Jonathansammy (talk) 20:32, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The thesis does not change anything. Madhav Deshpande gives a summary of the topic in a published peer-reviewed journal unlike the thesis which is research and has a POV. Secondly, Patil's thesis has mistakes as pointed out by S.L.Levitt. And it mentions Skanda Puran anyways., google books "chitpavan  sahyadri khanda" and see how many google hits of academic sources you get. Dympies, beware of WP:CANVASS. LukeEmily (talk) 20:54, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * , let us make this simple. If you find other secondary sources published as journals or books that discuss other Brahminic scriptures(other than Sahyadrikhanda) that list the origins of Chitpavans, please give the quotes and sources here so we can add them to the page and decide how much weight to give each of them. OK? I will wait for your sources at the level of Madhav Deshpande. Thanks, LukeEmily (talk) 21:12, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * At present, there are two sources. One discusses fishermen theory while the other discusses foreigner theory and both cite the same Skanda Purana. Both of them are contradictory. Needs an explanation. Dympies (talk) 09:31, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * LukeEmily, Dympies Sahyadrikhanda is a relatively recent regional addition to the Skanda purana.That aside, purana can not be considered as historical sources. Having said that, I am OK with mentioning Sahyadrikhanda in the origin as long as the word Myth is used in the description.Best regards.Jonathansammy (talk) 13:17, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Alexander Henn on Sahyadrikhanda:

So, one thing is clear. Most modern scholars consider Sahyadrikhanda as a mythical text with little to no historic value. A similar Parshuram myth has been narrated in the khanda in order to justify the presence of Goud Saraswat Brahmins. Considering this, we should discuss this khanda in a very brief para without giving it undue weightage. Etymology is a very important thing; both versions ("pure of mind" and "pure from the pyre") should be mentioned. After discussing it, we may state that the authenticity of Sahyadrikhanda is questionable and modern scholars don't approve of it. We should remove M.M Deshpande source considering that he is a Maharashtrian Brahmin and his writings can't be treated as neutral. Also, we should use the term "shipwrecked sailors" rather than fishermen as used in some other reliable sources. , please go ahead and rephrase the para. Dympies (talk) 18:56, 13 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Deshpande is not necessarily a Maharashtrian brahmin surname.Deshpande was a title of district or county level revenue officials during Deccan sultanate and Maratha eras. You can find that surname amongst CKP, Deshastha brahmin (Kannada or Marathi speaking), Karhade brahmin, and GSB communities. M.M Deshpande, I believe is a GSB. Best regards. Jonathansammy (talk) 19:44, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * M.M Deshpande's caste is irrelevant. I knew one of his relatives in the west personally(also with the same last name) and I think the scholar is a Deshastha Brahmin but I never asked so I am not sure. I have lost touch with her. Dympies, by saying We should remove M.M Deshpande source considering that he is a Maharashtrian Brahmin and his writings can't be treated as neutral., you are questioning a modern scholar and that is not an editors job. You are clearly POV pushing and doing WP:OR. Dympies your reasons for removing the source are invalid.  The secondary source is reliable and high quality and that is what matters. see Baidya as an example. If you have sources with other opinions, you can add them if you want as I have already said. The Deshpande source is very high in quality, accuracy etc. and will not be removed. It is published in a scholarly journal and goes into tremendous depth of the scripture, unlike others that simply make passing remarks. It is important for etymology.  LukeEmily (talk) 22:51, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * , in your last edit, you didn't address my concern about fishermen. Now the question has arisen if the Sahyadrikhanda really says fishermen. Probably, you need to add some more citations for its support. Also, you didn't add the term myth while most sources do call it a myth. Bifurcating the existing Origin section into Origin and Etymology isn't a good idea as both are inter-related. A very little authentic stuff exists on the origin of Chitpavan Brahmins. The present Origin section begins with Bene Israel theory but that too is related to the Sahyadrikhanda myth. Let me try something.


 * And please remember WP:CIVILITY and refrain from accusing others of pov pushing. I have been constantly making efforts to improve this article because there is a large scope. Ideally, the caste of Deshpande should not be discussed but there is a contradiction in his interpretation of Sahyadrikhanda and we should not forget that Maharashtrian Brahmins have a long history of inter-caste rivalry. You know this isn't the first time that the caste of author has been questioned on this talk page. Dympies (talk) 02:09, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
 * , Please quote the sentence above that was uncivil. The POV was for Patil's paper. The fishermen legend is accurate. We dont need more references due to the high quality of the source but I will give you some other sources on the talk page that discuss the fisherman origin. But they are unnecessary on the article page. Criteria is that the quality of the source should be high. BTW, neither fishermen nor jewish nor foreign is derogatory.  What is probably derogatory is that the entire caste was cursed by Parshuram for being unethical. The author has translated the sanskrit scripture and has  actually given analysis of some verses. No reason to doubt Deshpande, even if he is an orthodox Deshastha Brahmin- he has studied it in depth and published in a peer reviewed journal. BTW, the fishermen origin was also referred to in a 1915 speech, and it is mentioned by Karve, Shrikant Talageri, etc.  Also, foreign and fishermen are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Deleting and questioning high quality references, using false edit summaries, false section names (synthesis in so and so section when there was not)  is not helping edit a page, I would call it disruption. Where was the caste of the source (author) in a peer reviewed discussed? But getting back on topic, I think the etymology and origin should be seperate. What is unique is that this caste has no visible presence before the Peshwas. Very hard to explain. Even marathas/Kolis had a presence. Anyway, I will quote even some Raj era and later references on the talk page for the fishermen legend.LukeEmily (talk) 20:32, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Dympies, Some other sources(including some Raj era sources mentioned FYI only) mentioning fisherman legend(these are not needed on main page as Deshpande is very high quality as per WP:HISTRW). Giving some Raj era sources to show that this was well known and not a 21st century discovery by Dr.Deshpande:


 * A 1911 speech delivered at Benaras (source: The Depressed classes of India, pg 168  )

Thanks, LukeEmily (talk) 01:48, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Gandhi and Godse by Koenraad Elst, 2001 pg 11:
 * The Aryan invasion theory Shrikant G. Talageri 1993
 * By Ways of Bombay(pg 98) - S. M. Edwardes (Raj era) given to show that the legend was also known to the British.

, would you please address the issue raised by Jonathasammy here? Dympies (talk) 14:36, 2 October 2023 (UTC)


 * , sure., I did not understand the issue. Please can you clarify your concern? The citation is already provided. The quote on page 40 says "He refers to another work titled Sadbodhacintāmaṇi published by the community of goldsmiths in Bombay which evidently contains similar chapters ascribed to the Sahyādrikhaṇḍa.". Goldsmith caste of Bombay would mean Daivadnya. Thanks, LukeEmily (talk) 22:40, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * ,, Can you assume that Goldsmiths in Bombay were Daivadnya? Wouldn't that be original research? Comments please. Thanks. Jonathansammy (talk) 15:46, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * AFAIK there was only one community of Goldsmiths and they were called Daivadnya Brahmin. If there are other castes that I am not aware of that are also Goldsmith castes, we can change it to "community of goldsmiths".LukeEmily (talk) 03:39, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @LukeEmily:, @Dympies:, I recommend you change it to "community of goldsmiths" . Thanks. Jonathansammy (talk) 15:58, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 November 2023
I want to add what their distinct eye color and their population VisitedEveryStateinIndia (talk) 17:16, 21 November 2023 (UTC)


 * We do not add information of phenotype in ethnic/regional/caste/tribe articles. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:43, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 November 2023
I want to add “social mobilisation of chitpavans according to many authors after gaining military power”.Madhwahari (talk) 04:35, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 06:04, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Doubt about the usage of word
The official name of community is chitpavan it is based on origin,probably usage of konkanastha  may lead to confusion as the meaning is "Residence of konkan".Many communities are there in konkan. Regards, Fadnavis Rajeshfadnavis (talk) 14:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC)


 * , thank you for the suggestion. The word has been changed to Konkanastha Brahmin to avoid confusion. LukeEmily (talk) 17:17, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
 * But the community primarily calls itself Kokanastha, not Konkanastha.I know the region is spelt Konkan but you will get more hits, certainly for brides and grooms, if you type Kokanastha rather than Konkanastha.My two cents Jonathansammy (talk) 20:07, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * , Jonathansammy is correct. I checked google books and the word used is mostly Kokanastha (not Konkanastha). Thanks LukeEmily (talk) 23:48, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

This is how the description needs to be
The Chitpavan Brahmins, also known as Konkanastha Brahmins, are a prominent Brahmin community in the Konkan region of Maharashtra, India. This region encompasses the coastal areas of Maharashtra, primarily around the towns and cities of Ratnagiri, Sindhudurg, and Raigad.

Origins and History
The origins of the Chitpavan Brahmins are somewhat shrouded in mystery, with various legends and theories explaining their ancestry. One popular legend suggests that they are descendants of the seven sages (Sapta Rishis) who were brought back to life by the sage Parashurama from shipwrecked bodies on the Konkan coast. This narrative positions them as having divine or semi-divine origins, adding to their historical prestige.

Historically, the Chitpavan Brahmins rose to prominence during the Maratha Empire in the 17th and 18th centuries. They played crucial roles as administrators, warriors, and advisors in the Maratha court, especially during the Peshwa rule. The Peshwas, who were the prime ministers of the Maratha Empire, were Chitpavan Brahmins, and this significantly bolstered the community's influence and status.

Cultural and Social Aspects
Chitpavan Brahmins are known for their distinct cultural practices, which include specific rituals, dietary customs, and a unique dialect of Marathi. Their cuisine often features seafood, reflecting the coastal geography of their homeland, although they also follow many traditional vegetarian practices typical of Brahmin communities.

Contributions to Society
The Chitpavan Brahmins have made substantial contributions to various fields, including education, politics, literature, and arts. During the British colonial period and after independence, many Chitpavan Brahmins emerged as prominent figures in the Indian freedom struggle, social reform movements, and intellectual circles. Notable personalities include Bal Gangadhar Tilak, an influential freedom fighter and social reformer, and Gopal Krishna Gokhale, a prominent leader and social reformer.

Contemporary Status
Today, the Chitpavan Brahmins are a well-educated and influential community within Maharashtra. They continue to play significant roles in the state's socio-political and cultural life. While they maintain their traditional customs and rituals, many members of the community have also embraced modern professions and lifestyles, contributing to a wide array of fields from politics and business to academia and technology.

Physical Appearance
Chitpavan Brahmins have historically been noted for their distinctive physical features, which set them apart from other Brahmin communities in the region. They are often described as having fair skin, light-colored eyes (blue or green), and sharp facial features. This appearance has fueled various theories and speculations about their origins, including the possibility of their migration from other regions or even outside India.

Theories of Migration
Several theories suggest that the Chitpavan Brahmins might have migrated from other regions, based on their distinct appearance and some historical accounts:


 * 1) Indo-Aryan Migration: Some historians propose that the Chitpavan Brahmins might be descendants of Indo-Aryan groups who migrated to the Konkan region from northern parts of India. Their lighter skin and eye color are sometimes cited as evidence supporting this theory.
 * 2) Foreign Ancestry: Another theory suggests that they could have ancestral links to foreign traders or settlers who might have integrated with the local population. The legend of their shipwreck and subsequent revival by Parashurama adds a mythical dimension to this theory, hinting at a possible foreign origin.
 * 3) Local Origin: Despite these theories, there is also strong evidence to suggest that the Chitpavan Brahmins are indigenous to the Konkan region, having lived there for centuries and adapted their customs and traditions to the local environment.

Modern Adaptations
In contemporary times, Chitpavan Brahmins continue to uphold their traditional customs while also integrating into modern society. They have embraced education and professional careers, with many members excelling in fields like politics, business, medicine, and technology. They are also active participants in cultural preservation, ensuring that their unique heritage is passed down to future generations.

Prominent Figures
The community has produced numerous notable figures who have significantly impacted Indian society. Some of these include:


 * Bal Gangadhar Tilak: A freedom fighter and social reformer known for his role in the Indian independence movement.
 * Gopal Krishna Gokhale: A respected leader and social reformer, known for his moderate views and efforts towards education and social development.
 * Vinoba Bhave: A Gandhian leader and advocate of non-violence, known for his Bhoodan Movement (land donation movement).

In summary, the Chitpavan Brahmins are a unique and influential community in the Konkan region, distinguished by their distinct physical features, rich cultural traditions, and significant contributions to various fields. Their history is a blend of myth, migration theories, and local adaptations, making them an integral part of Maharashtra's cultural tapestry.