Talk:Citizen of the Galaxy

old talk
Just a note about the picture of the book cover. The caption says "first edition cover 1957", but I'm pretty sure that that's the cover from the 1984 Del Rey Edition.


 * You're quite right that this is a Del Rey cover; in fact, it's got an ISBN number in the upper-right, and although the resolution isn't so good, it would appear to read "0-345-34244-5", making it the 1987 Del Rey reissue. Given that, and the fact that it doesn't look even vaguely like "0-684" in the beginning, I'm changing the caption. Andrew Rodland 15:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, see Quest of the Delta Knights. 68.39.174.238

Kipling
I am intrigued by the statement that Kipling's Kim influenced this book. I would like to find out where to read more about it. Is there a source or sources? Zaslav 09:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Here's a blog post about how Kipling influenced Heinlein that I find useful:

"Kipling entered science fiction through Robert Heinlein. Heinlein was a great reader of the imperialist bard and constantly reworked Kipling-esque themes into science fiction settings. The military ethos of Starship Trooper is pure Kipling, and many of Heinlein’s juveniles (books aimed at teenage boys) follow the core pattern of Kim: a young man from the provinces, cocky but unsure of his identity, is initiated into adulthood through the mentorship of avuncular older men and a grueling rite of passage. Stylistically and thematically, everything in Heinlein can be traced back in to Kipling: the dialogue rich in banter and slang, the sprightly narrative pace, the evocation of an exotic environment through unexplained foreign (or alien) words and inexplicable background details, the anti-modernist faith that the world is fully knowable and conquerable, the didactic insistence on the importance of willpower (as against intelligence) in overcoming adversity, the clipped manly tone that hides a sentimental self-pity, the plebian distrust of intellectuals and other soft guardians of cultural authority, the celebration of engineers, soldiers and other competent men who get the job done without dawdle or time-consuming introspection." | Sans Everything "Science Fiction and Empire: Part the Second" Cullen328 (talk) 04:12, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Info box
What do people think of indicating in the info box that this is part of a series? I would assume that means, not a series of rather similar books by the same author, but a series of closely related books that might be best read in order, or that have some chronological relation (like Hardy Boys or Nancy Drew or Darkover books). Neither of those applies here. The Heinlein book list at the bottom of the article provides all the sequence information that's needed or relevant. Any (dis)agreement? Zaslav 09:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I brought this up too, but was outvoted. See Talk:Robert A. Heinlein. Clarityfiend 17:41, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there is no reason to call this book part of a "series". It shares no characters or specific plot elements with any of his other novels. It was written as part of a group of so-called "juvenile" novels, but for the most part, these are independent works, as opposed to the more juvenile "Lucky Starr" novels he wrote as a genuine series under a pen name - almost like the Hardy Boys in space. Many of his later novels had continuing threads of characters and historical plot lines that continued from book to book. Citizen of the Galaxy is not among them.Jim Heaphy (talk) 04:39, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I was wrong in the reference to Lucky Starr above. it was Isaac Asimov who wrote those books under a pen name.Jim Heaphy (talk) 04:49, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

This article needs a Thematic Summary
Which I added, and am posting this so any changes or deletions may be discussed. (This means you, Rydra Wong ) Stillstudying 15:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It may need one, but this isn't it. "...an inappropriate invasion of personal rights..." is a truly bizarre way of describing slavery. What is murder then - inappropriate damage of personal property? What is here is very generic (slavery is bad, ignorance is bad, honor has a price) and should be deleted. Clarityfiend 15:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Greetings Clarityfiend; editor Stillstudying asked me to look at his edits with an eye towards content and whether they are appropriate. I agree with him that the article needs a thematic analysis.  I also agree with you that the current one needs revising, and I will now begin to do so, with an eye towards hopefully reaching consensus.  I believe I understand why he approached it the way he did by linking to the Heinlein society - they analyzed the book in quite a simliar way.  You perhaps have to understand Heinlein's personal philosophies to understand what he was trying to do with the argument in this novel that slavery violates intrinsic personal rights - I personally think his viewpoint was rather myopic, but it was his.  I think the section should stay, but it certainly could stand improvement and I will give it a shot.  I don't feel that the section should be deleted - this novel has some very powerful points that needs analysis. I urge you to work with him, myself, and anyone else who is interested, and craft a better thematic analysis. old windy bear 00:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It's looking better already. Clarityfiend 04:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Clarityfiend Thanks! Do you feel we need more changes?  I tried to reword it to address the very real concerns you brought - do you feel the current wording is acceptable?  old windy bear 09:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey Bear, thanks for the help. Clarity, thank you also. I realize that the wording was simplistic, but Heinlein himself wrote repeatedly about personal rights, and it was the Heinlein Society that emphasized the theorum that Heinlein was writing about slavery as a wanton intrusion on personal rights rather than simply a racist tool of oppression. Bear, your wording is far better, and I am satisfied that we are getting the points across. Stillstudying 11:18, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

As I recall the novel, which I've read several times in the past 45 years, there is no hint of a racial component to slavery as presented in the novel. Cullen328 (talk) 03:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I am simply stunned by the gracious way you two have responded to my *ahem* overheated initial comments. My tone was rather rude, for which I apologize. Wikipedia needs more contributors like you. Clarityfiend 17:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Greetings Clarityfiend and thank you! I thought you made a very valid point with your posting. I winced when I read it, but I thought it was valid because the section was not written as well as it should have been. I have ot say though, I can take someone lighting me up as long as they allow me to correct it, which you were willing to do, and if they use the talk page, so we can discuss it, which you did! Wikipedia needs editors like you also, who are passionate about what we do, and who use the talk page to try to get poor edits, (groan) improved. I think Bear did a good job of correcting it. Take care and thanks also! Stillstudying 17:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I will echo Still's words. You had a valid point, which you posted on the talk page, and were willing to discuss.  That is good editing.  old windy bear 19:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Slavery in Science Fiction
Can anyone point me to other science fiction works in which human slavery is a core concept? Tfleming (talk) 02:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Obvious example is the Gor books... AnonMoos (talk) 13:05, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Influences?
I am listening to this novel for the first time. Since I was born in 1951 and this is labeled a "juvenile" it would have been right in my wheelhouse...

I notice some vague similarities to Orson Scott Card's "Ender" (a young man killing annonymous enemies in space) and wonder if he may have read it as a youngster.

Also, probably a wild coincidence, but about halfway through, at the gathering when the names of some of the People's ships a mentioned there is one called "Firefly". Joss Whedon, Was this on your early reading list?

Dark1Star (talk) 17:34, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * When reading it, I noticed that it was remarkably similar to Firefly. Not only is there the ship, but at one point they call space "The Black," there's the fact the Earth is just a myth, the raiders are reevers...I wish I could find a source saying that this was an inspiration for Joss Whedon, and I'd add it, but until I find one I can't. Borg Sphere (talk) 02:19, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Half the book takes place on Earth. Now, I agree that Thorby thought it was a myth when he was an uneducated slave boy, but that is an awfully thin reed.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:36, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * And Border Reivers were theives and cattle rustlers working acros the English/Scottish borders for several centuries. Both Heinlein and Whedon probably got the name from the same source. Similarly the organistation in the Star Trek universe known as the Maquis was a (actually several) real organisation. Authors and tv-writers do that a lot - it lends a feeling of historical continuity and tradition. 88.105.88.140 (talk) 20:30, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Basically both Heinlein and Weadon were working with the idea of a civilization that is highly developped at the core but unable to maintain order on the outskirts; the hero in both cases lives ( or starts) in the outskirts and has to live by his wits. I think the shared theme accounts for the simularities.   Weadon's official source was the Old West and Heinlein's was the British Raj in India as portrayed in Kipling's KIM.CharlesTheBold (talk) 21:51, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Structure
I think something should be said about the novel's structure. The story falls into four parts; in each one Thorby is thrust into a new culture and learns to adjust with the help of a mentor. The four cultures are (1) The slave planet (2) The traders (3) The military (4) The millionaire's life. At each stage he becomes more independent: slave, family member, voluntary recruit, owner of a fortune. From the reader's point of view, the cultures start alien and grow increasingly familiar. CharlesTheBold (talk) 21:51, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If you could find some secondary source so stating, I would have no objection. I would argue that with each stop along the way, he is less free to set his own destiny.  Only his loyalty to Baslim holds him as a slave; Baslim would not prevent him from leaving after the first few days, as a trader, the social expectations of the culture prevent him from leaving, as a serviceman, there are laws preventing him from walking out, and as a tycoon he is, as explained in novel, the least free of all.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Anthropological reference
His description of life on the ship shows an anthropological moiety system there... AnonMoos (talk) 13:10, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Themes of freedom
When I first read this, one of the ideas that I took away was that of all of the homes and such that Thorby had throughout the book, the only time he was really free was when he was living as a slave. Everywhere else he was held down by job or family obligations and had little or no control over the direction of his life. I was surprised that this theme isn't mentioned in the article somewhere. Or am I the only one seeing this aspect of the novel? Canine virtuoso (talk) 23:23, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

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