Talk:Ciudad Juárez

Initial message
"This spelling pun alludes to the real Juarez's association with illicit trafficking."

I feel that this statement prejuduced, demeaning to the citizens of Ciudad Juárez. It has no place in or relavance the article and is personally insulting to me as I was born in Ciudad Juárez. I ask that it be edited out. I would do it but it might be tagged as vandalism.71.28.250.92 02:11, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Maps
The maplinks are completely useless. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dehagido (talk • contribs).

Places to visit
The "Pueblito Mexicano" mall has been closed. Remove it from the list.

You should add a new place called 'Parque Central', or Central Park. It is located 10 miles to the south of the border (right through the Tecnologico Avenue), and it contains a lake, a mini-zoo, place where to the take the family on a weekend, basketball and voleyball courts, and a nice playground for kids.

Somebody from Juarez.&mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 189.171.234.186 (talk • contribs).


 * I took care of it. Thanks for taking a moment to mention this. Somnabot 05:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Largest Border metro area
Whatcha all think of this?: http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=367604&CategoryId=14091 And what the hell is "the Ciudad Juarez Citizens Security and Coexistence Observatory"? -signed Me

THE offical population of juarez is 4 million, you jerk, you make wikipedia un credable, by makeing up crap, i saw a show on AandE and they said 4 million,

I had no idea AndE conducted the Mexican census! Juarez certainly has a large floating population that makes it difficult to estimate how many people live in the city...but most estimates have it between 1.5 and 2 million. The population growth may actually be levelling off this year due to unemployment in maquiladoras, border enforcement, and the crime wave driving middle class and wealthier people out of the city. 98.99.147.166 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 02:37, 23 November 2008 (UTC).

I believe Detroit-Windsor Canada-US is around 6 million, more than double, needs correcting. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.248.135.49 (talk • contribs).
 * Somnabot 05:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * EXACTLY!!! I was going to say SAN DIEGO/TIJUANA, but i didn't know DETROIT and WINDSOR had more~!!! SUPER NEEDS CORRECTING~!&mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.232.72.2 (talk &bull; contribs) . 209.206.165.16
 * The problem with the Tijuana/San Diego metro area is that San Diego "lies just north of the Mexican border" Sort of like how Las Cruces, New Mexico "lies just north of the Mexican border." I believe the root of the problem stems from incorrect wording. What I believe the author meant to say was "The two cities form a Metroplex metropolitan area of over 2,700,000 making it the largest international border community in which the first and third worlds meet in such a close proximity." I have changed the wording for the time being in hopes that this will solve the problem. Somnabot 20:53, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

San Diego/Tijuana is still bigger, a lot bigger, so I guess all they have left is they are closer together? this weak and I think it should cut. I think I will try and someone will restore it&mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.206.165.16 (talk • contribs).

San Diego is miles and miles from Mexico. You might want to buy a map. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.28.177 (talk) 01:49, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for completely overlooking the value of this discussion. If you took the time to read through this discussion page, you would have realized that a sort of concencus has been reached. The City of Juarez, because of it's socio-economic position and proximity to El Paso, Texas is being studied all over the world in geography cources, economics courses, etc. High school sophmores in france learn it. The germans and Japanese study it just after preliminary school. I can provide you with proof. Why don't you go find some proof that cooberates with your opinion. Furthermore, yes, you did try, and yes, I "restore". Somnabot 16:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

First to third world
I think the term "third world" needs to be revised when mentioning Mexico or Ciudad Juarez. It is part of an outdated term refering for underdevelopment countries. Many countries are reaching new levels of development and quality of life, and this may apply for Ciudad Juarez and Mexico —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 189.171.170.17 (talk) 04:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC).
 * As per the Third World article: "The term Third World is also disliked as it may imply the false notion that those countries are not a part of the global economic system. Some in academia see it as being out of date, colonialist, othering and inaccurate; its use has continued, however.  In general, Third World countries are not as industrialized or technologically advanced as OECD countries, and therefore in academia, the current term in use is "developing nation"... Countries that have more advanced economies than developing nations but have not yet attained the level of those in the First World are grouped under the term Newly Industrialized Countries or NICs. Current examples includes China, India, Mexico or South Africa to name a few." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Somnabot (talk • contribs) 05:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC).


 * The reason why it's outdated is because it was a cold war term reffering to countries that were not closely integrated into either the US and Western Europe or the USSR economy (i.e. not US, Canada, Western Europe or Soviet bloc countries ). Thats what I thought anyway. Brentt 05:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Please Sign your Comments
Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~&#126;); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Somnabot 05:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kain06 (talk • contribs)

Killings
How come there's nothing in here about the killings? Not even a link to an article on the killings? I think thats quite an ommission is it not?Brentt 05:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * See the final paragraph of the history section. damndirtyape 19:01, 24 April, 2007


 * i just removed the following comment- "
 * Juárez women continue to suffer daily under the violent yoke of several nebulous narco-satanic cults and organ-theft consortia."


 * i read the cited source, which states that cults and organ theft are among "a variety of theories," not fact, and at that, the link does not state the source of those theories. IMO that does not qualify as fact. Zmbe (talk) 02:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Parts of this article read like an advert for businesses to invest in Juarez, written by someone speaking English as a second language, particularly the use of the words "prestigious magazine" several times. I'm not surprised the killings are not mentioned enough. They should be in the introductory paragraph. --24.98.76.198 (talk) 02:36, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Crime updates
I updated the "Crime" section after reading Charles Bowden's piece in GQ. But I'm not great at creating links in the proper format, if someone wants to update. MaterTerribilis (talk) 17:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Speaking of crime, there is no mention of it in the opening paragraph. Meanwhile, there is plenty of gushing over the city's great investment climate. It may all be true, but it's all a lot of spin. The opening paragraph needs to be an unbiased overview, not the Chamber of Commerce view. Goeverywhere (talk) 02:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

--As significant as the crime wave is, I don't think it should be commented on in the introduction, but a lengthy section in the article should deal with it. Comments about its business or investor clime should, likewise, go in the economy section. The blurb about restaurants should also go in its respective section. The introduction should be limited to its size, location, and a basic description of its role as a border city. 98.99.147.166 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 02:33, 23 November 2008 (UTC).

Almost no photos?
Why does this article have so few photos. Three in total, one repeated and with all due respect, to very good to say the least. I mean the photo of the Cathedral is a photo of the Catherdral or of the traffic light... or maybe an ad for Burger King? Does noone have good photos of the city? It seems the page concentrates mainly on crime, while Juarez does have numerous sites and tourist attractions and loads of tourists a year... who all don't take photos - it seems ;). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.205.87.182 (talk) 22:27, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

187.158.1.239 (talk)By Alex S.
 * answering your question. I do have some photos( around 20-30).. just tell me how can i upload them to the wikipedia page and i'll do it asap!


 * http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ciudad_Ju%C3%A1rez upload them here - there are also some more pictures that can be built into the article. --92.228.209.117 (talk) 19:01, 14 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I added a photo (see right) Ciudad Juárez Mexico.jpg which User:Fv1209 and User:‎B575 removed. Fv1209 wrote "Possible vandalism. Do we need to start to include a picture of the poorest neighborhoods of each city in their Wikipages? Like Chicago, Memphis or Los Angeles?" and User:‎Survivorfan1995 responded "removing an image just because it's of a poor neighborhood seems to compromise Wikipedia's neutrality; as long as we've got images of other areas too it's fine". I'm unsure of best practices here; this photo really does show what a part of Ciudad Juárez looked like in 2002. Perhaps we could have more written context around the income and living disparity within the city (and all cities, including Chicago, Memphis, and Los Angeles). Runner1928 (talk) 02:12, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Mexican soldiers and armed federal police
In the UK Daily Mail on Wednesday March 4th 2009, a reporter by the name of Andrew Malone reported "Convoys of military vehicles stretching for more than half a mile...carrying 5,000 soldiers and federal police armed with assault fifles and rocket propelled grenades".

In the article is only says 2000.

Chi force (talk) 11:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Edits to the Page
I recently added information to this page and it was removed almost immediately. In this page there is a section about the series of murders of women that have been reported in Ciudad Juarez. Along with this section is a list of different sources that have used this topic as a base for their media. This includes books, movies and songs about the events. I added another video that has these murders as a topic. The video is "Dual Injustice". I am curious as to why my information was removed, and how I may better phrase my edits in the future to ensure they remain posted. Thank you. Natters02 (talk) 20:47, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

-- So long as the Juarez Chamber of Commerce continues editing this page, I don't think we have a lot of chance of covering subjects that do not shed the city in a positive light. This entry is spin and nothing more....... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.107.140.121 (talk) 21:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps they could be blocked from editing. Not sure how to call for this. Hu Gadarn (talk) 21:27, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality check
A tough article to get right. Ciudad Juárez is one of Mexico's largest cities. English-language news sources tend to go hard on the city for two reasons: drug trafficking and a long string of unsolved homicides. Could be undue weight on that aspect of the city. Attempts to resolve the problem haven't been particularly useful: the page has had blanking vandalism of whole sections of cited information, and more recently a poorly sourced section of civic boosterism added. Have given that new section a basic runthrough and cleanup, but really needs the eyes of a larger number of experienced editors. Durova Charge! 21:57, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Juárez murder total confused with state
Rather than just Juárez, the 1,500 murders during 2008 appear to be for the entire state of Chihuahua. Juárez historically has about half Chihuahua's murders so I'm guessing, without knowing the city's figures, it's somewhere around 700 with the state having 1,414 last year. Still significantly worse than US urban areas but lower than claimed. News articles look to have made the same mistake with Tijuana/Baja California, stating nearly 900 murders in Tijuana (coincidentally BJ state had 853) when in fact the real figure is 577.

http://www.icesi.org.mx/documentos/estadisticas/estadisticas/denuncias_homicidio_doloso_1997_2008.pdf

http://www.transparenciabc.gob.mx/wps/wcm/resources/file/eb53294ce15da49/inci_dic%2008_Tijuana.pdf

The Tijuana numbers are 'homicidios dolosos' (intentional homicide in English). Some Mexican data includes accidental homicide.

Power Society (talk) 11:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

CCJ Juarez
I've proposed a merge of this article about a vigilante group into the Crime section. The article was proposed for deletion, but the coverage of the group is enough for us to keep the material and merge it here, I think. Fences &amp;  Windows  23:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Grammer, Usage, Style?
There seem to be many paragraphs in this article that fail to follow a proper paragraph structure, specifically, The "Topic, detail detail...) model. Non-sequiturs abound. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.222.232.226 (talk) 06:05, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with this unsigned statement. I made some effort today to improve the writing. Hu Gadarn (talk) 21:25, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Missing text?
I just reverted a bit of vandalism where someone deleted a bunch of stuff. I suggest the article undergo a copy edit to see if more material has been deleted. For example, although there is a link to a New York Times article about the city being the site of the worst nuclear materials spill in North American history in 1984, the article body contains no reference to this. 68.146.81.123 (talk) 22:55, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Infobox map error
Can someone fix the map in the infobox? It shows Juarez being located in Texas. 68.146.81.123 (talk) 17:04, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Growth and Development Neutrality check
Ah, there are MASSIVE subdivisions still empty. The south (south east and south west) areas are filled with very very empty but very very large subdivisions. The comments about "largest" and "fastest" may be based on the potential content of these new subdivisions ... and skipping the  more expensive  part, the construction of actual residences and operating GDP contributing industry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.92.35.71 (talk) 04:12, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Errors/Horrors
I live in Juarez and I've found several errors on the article: (1) "Auditorio Municipal: The new state of the art theater built behind the UACJ Med School." I do not know which Auditorio they are talking about. There is one in front of the Med School but is called Auditorio Paso del Norte and there is another one "behind" but it is called "Centro Cultural Universitario" here is the description :

"''El Centro Cultural está compuesto por 1 Teatro, 3 Salas de usos múltiples, cafetería y vestíbulo para exposiciones, además de cuatro camerinos y área para escenografia. El área del teatro con una capacidad para 500 personas es utilizada mayormente en espectáculos de distinta índole y manifestaciones del arte además de conferencias, encuentros y cursos de aspecto académico.

Las salas de usos múltiples son utilizadas para conferencias y debido a la posibilidad  de ser usadas individualmente  son ideales para las mesas de trabajo simultaneas.

El Centro Cultural Universitario es utilizado por dependencias de la Institución y organismos no universitarios, lo cual lo convierte en una sede altamente demandada en la ciudad."''

(2) Zona Pronaf: Bars, museums, shops, restaurants, entertainment. In the Zona Pronaf, one can find bars such as La Mulata, Cafe Dali, Don Quintin, San Martin, The News, Ole Bar Chamucos, among others.

The following clubs are now closed: La Mulata, Cafe Dali, Don Quintin, The News (it was actually burned). Lincoln street where most of the bars were located is now almost empty, the only two bars open is the: San Martin (cantina style) and Shamrock ("irish" pub). Chamucos and other bars are open but they are located a couple of blocks away from the latter clubs. 192.94.29.223 (talk) 19:54, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Why is this rated low importance for wiki-project Mexico?
Would think mid would be more realistic... AnonMoos (talk) 16:23, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I changed it to high WhisperToMe (talk) 16:56, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

More sources
WhisperToMe (talk) 16:56, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Dunham, Richard. "Juárez special report: Cartels extract extortion 'quotas'." Houston Chronicle. September 28, 2010.

Outdated into
This paragraph:

Ciudad Juárez is one of the fastest growing cities in the world despite being called "the most violent zone in the world outside of declared war zones."[3] In 2001 the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas published a report stating that in Ciudad Juárez “the average annual growth over the 10-year period 1990-2000 was 5.3 percent. Juárez experienced much higher population growth than the state of Chihuahua and than Mexico as a whole.”[4]

is completely outdated and even misleading (2001/2005 sources). Someone should get rid of it. Bah, I'll do it —Preceding unsigned comment added by whohoo (talk) 02:18, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Femicides and missing women numbers
In the initial "Crime and Safety" section the statistics given are 600 femicides since the early 1990s and an additional 3000 women reported missing. The subsection on "Female sexual homicides" gives that information as over 4000 femicides "in the last ten years" and an additional 400 missing women. Something doesn't add up. Alexaxas (talk) 17:21, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, there should be a comparison to the overall homicide rate to provide context. Another Wikipedia article stated that for a year or so, there were several murders each day in Juarez. If that's true, the female homicide rate is remarkably low. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.123.216.45 (talk) 15:28, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Heroica Ciudad Juarez PROOF
I see that there's a conflict on whether or not Ciudad Juarez is Heroica (Heroic) or not. Here are some citations that prove that:

Mañana, la ciudad cambia su nombre, será 'Heroica Ciudad Juárez': Se unen gobernantes en designación de Juárez como Heroic:  Juárez to add 'heroic' to name:

We will settle the disputes here. Thanks. ComputerJA (talk) 01:10, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

La designación de “Heroica Ciudad Juárez” solo será una connotación simbólica y para fines promocionales, en atención al papel que jugó este municipio durante la Revolución Mexicana. El nombre de esta frontera permanece igual.

Check: http://www.diario.com.mx/notas.php?f=2011%2F05%2F19&id=fedddcc999eef32ca47cd1c860e31be5 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.215.14.76 (talk) 05:48, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep, that seems to be true. Thanks for clearing it up. I give you the honors to undo the edit. Cheers! ComputerJA (talk) 06:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.215.14.76 (talk) 05:48, 8 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Nope, thank you! ComputerJA (talk) 02:06, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

potential resource
'Messenger Angels' protest crime in Mexico, wearing angels' wings (video) Calling themselves 'Messenger Angels,' youth members of an evangelical church are protesting Mexico's drug violence by taking to the streets carrying signs and wearing angel costumes." by Sara Miller Llana, Correspondent Csmonitor.com December 21, 2011; excerpt ...

The Mexican Drug War is the coverstory of the in-print issue. 99.190.86.5 (talk)

Additions to Page
Weak points of the Article I think that this article is good. However, It is lacking some major things within it. I think the most major weak point is the fact that the page lacks modern information. The page is updated on the drug cartel violence and crime rate decrease and figures, yet it lacks additional information about how that affects Juarez in both the community and economic level. I think this page just needs some more in depth information about everything going on in and around Ciudad.

Good News in Mexico Like I mentioned before, this page is not fully up to date on all its facts. I feel that within the economic section of this page, some vital information was left out. The economic section of this page talks about huge companies and foreign influences. However, it leaves out information about Juarez’s economy on a communal level. The drug cartel activity played a significant role on the economics of Juarez. This citation would more than help this section of the page. It explains that since there was so much drug cartel related violence, people were simply scared to partake in their community, thus sending the region into a downward spiral (as we saw in 2008). It goes into specific detail explaining how the two rival cartels (i.e. Sinaloa and Juarez) created so much turmoil in Juarez, that it directly affected the region in a very negative way. I like this citation because it gives the modern economic figures and shows how the recent resolution of the cartels has allowed the economy to improve. I think this article would be valuable because it also shows the resolution of other problems that Juarez was facing, such as the maquiladoras.

Murder Town; Silver or Lead on the Frontline of the Drugs War In World’s Most Dangerous City News Special I think this citation would be vital to the crime and safety section of the page. This section mentions the affect of the drug war on the crime rate of the region. However, it simply mentions the conflict between the two rival cartels, the Sinaloa and Juarez. The section fails to mention the fact that Juarez was considered to be the most dangerous city in the world, simply because of the conflict between the two gangs. I believe that this conflict, that is so briefly mentioned, is a major part of the crime rate in Juarez; it should definitely be covered in more depth. This citation would help the section because it goes into detail of how the conflict between these two rival cartels escalated, thus increasing the homicide rate in the region. The news article gives specific numbers and years that show how Juarez’s cartel conflict increased, or in more recent years, decreased. There is already a citation that gives figures to this decrease in crime rate, however, this citation does not go into depth about the conflict between the two cartels. I also think the source introduces some important crime information, such as unsolved murders and the effects of the drug war crackdown.

Mexico: A Nation in Flux: Life stirs anew in 'murder capital' Juarez; As crime rate falls, Mexicans 'feel safe' I think this quote would improve the Drug Cartel Violence. The citations that are presently in the section do a good job of giving figures of the violence and such. But reading over the sources, they lacked information on violence in Juarez specifically. The present citations give a good overview of the violence due to cartels in Mexico as a country, yet nothing specific to Juarez. My citation gives facts about the drug violence and numbers more specific to Juarez.

Mowilliams 1254 (talk) 16:17, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I think your updates would be great. Most of the massacres and in-depth analysis of the drug violence in the city are found in their respective articles: La Línea (gang) and Barrio Azteca. Feel free to add more info on the economic aspect of it. Sounds very interesting, cheers. ComputerJA (talk) 16:44, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

americans
Is it safe for an american man white 38 to be able ot reside in the city? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.69.74.211 (talk) 02:37, 22 December 2012 (UTC) Uhh, probably, depending on the area. Why are you asking this though? Socialistboyy (talk) 18:10, 6 April 2017 (UTC)socialistboyy

Timeline of Ciudad Juárez
What is missing from the city timeline? Please add relevant content. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 12:20, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20121005180148/http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=104593&sectionid=351020705 to http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=104593&sectionid=351020705

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Just Juárez
Isn't the common English name for this city just "Juárez"? I've never heard anyone in English say "Ciudad Juárez". Supaman89 (talk) 19:25, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd probably have to agree with you but "Ciudad Juárez" is used extensively in RS. Meatsgains (talk) 17:21, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

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Collage
The bottom-right picture on the collage is of El Paso, not Ciudad Juárez. ParadiseDesertOasis8888 (talk) 03:04, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
 * How can we be sure of that? Meatsgains (talk) 03:07, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Wells Fargo does not have any Ciudad Juárez locations. HotdogPi 00:49, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

placement on map
Can Ciudad Juárez be indicated on the ? Bus stop (talk) 14:36, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

"Zona libre" or free zone
I added in the History section a little about how Juarez became a "zona libre," which greatly contributed to the economic boom and its demise, as well as the origin of having the title of one of the most violent cities in the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kryost13 (talk • contribs) 22:43, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

The Women of Juarez
Native Name: Feminicidios en Ciudad Juárez

Duration: 1993-present

Location: Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua Mexico

Causes: Robbery, gang wars, rape, cartel violence(possibly my words)

Victims: 370+

It was estimated that more than 370 women were killed between 1993 and 2005 in Ciudad Juárez, a city in northern Mexico. The murders of women and girls received international attention primarily due to perceived government inaction in preventing the violence and bringing perpetrators to  Justice. In 1996, an Egyptian, Abdul Latif Sharif, was convicted of 3 murders and sentenced to a 30-year prison term.[19] After his arrest in 1995, the murders continued and authorities claimed that Sharif directed members of the "Los Rebeldes" gang to continue the murders while he was incarcerated.[9] These members were indicted and convicted as a result of this connection.[19] The gang members accused of carrying out murders under Sharif's orders claimed they were tortured while in police custody.[9] According to Monarrez Fragoso, "In the year 2000, it was known that the body of Elizabeth Castro Garcia, whose murder was attributed to Omar Sharif Latif, does not belong to her."[9]

In 2001, Victor Garcia Uribe and Gustavo Gonzalez Meza were apprehended for eight murders.[19] Gustavo Gonzalez Mesa died suspiciously while in police custody.[19] In 2004, Victor Garcia Uribe, a bus driver, was convicted of eight murders that took place in 2001.[19] He confessed to these murders, but claimed that he was tortured into confessing by police.[19]

In 2008, 16-year-old Ruby Frayre Escobedo was murdered by Sergio Barraza Bocanegra who was acquitted at his first trial for lack of evidence. Following two years of activism, a retrial convicted Bocanegra, who remained on the run. In 2010, Ruby's mother, Marisela Escobedo Ortiz, was assassinated by a shot to the head at point blank range while demonstrating for justice in front of the Governor's Palace in Chihuahua

@https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femicides_in_Ciudad_Juárez 63.152.65.74 (talk) 22:21, 9 May 2023 (UTC)