Talk:Clitoris/Archive 17

Proposal to split into Human clitoris and Clitoris articles
This is a follow-up to Suggestion 1 of the discussion that  posted above. This is then a proposal to split this article into Human clitoris and Clitoris, just as there are a Human penis and Penis articles. The is currently a redirect to Clitoris.

A general Clitoris article will contain discussion of subtopics that are unrelated to the Human clitoris such as:
 * Os clitoridis & the incidence of ossification in the canine clitoris
 * Female hyenas' clitoris with a pseudo-penis appearance
 * Hemiclitores
 * Clitoris in lizard, ostriches, & snakes, probably an example of convergent evolution
 * Non-human cunnilingus
 * Coverage of the primate clitorises
 * Coverage of the internal clitorises

I believe that having at least ten reliable sources usually establishes notability, particularly when those multiple sources provide "Significant coverage" and vary in quality and depth of coverage as per the General notablity guideline. Below are over fifty sources that establish notability for a mostly non-human Clitoris article modeled after the Penis article. They are sourced from general news articles, scholarly papers, books, & scientific journals.
 * In particular, see Comparative Anatomy of the Clitoris page 72.
 * See page 31.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.
 * In particular, see Comparative Anatomy of the Clitoris page 72.
 * See page 31.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.
 * In particular, see Comparative Anatomy of the Clitoris page 72.
 * See page 31.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.
 * In particular, see Comparative Anatomy of the Clitoris page 72.
 * See page 31.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.
 * In particular, see Comparative Anatomy of the Clitoris page 72.
 * See page 31.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.
 * In particular, see Comparative Anatomy of the Clitoris page 72.
 * See page 31.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.
 * In particular, see Comparative Anatomy of the Clitoris page 72.
 * See page 31.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.
 * In particular, see Comparative Anatomy of the Clitoris page 72.
 * See page 31.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.
 * In particular, see Comparative Anatomy of the Clitoris page 72.
 * See page 31.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.
 * In particular, see Comparative Anatomy of the Clitoris page 72.
 * See page 31.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.
 * In particular, see Comparative Anatomy of the Clitoris page 72.
 * See page 31.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.
 * In particular, see Comparative Anatomy of the Clitoris page 72.
 * See page 31.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.
 * In particular, see Comparative Anatomy of the Clitoris page 72.
 * See page 31.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.
 * In particular, see Comparative Anatomy of the Clitoris page 72.
 * See page 31.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.
 * In particular, see Comparative Anatomy of the Clitoris page 72.
 * See page 31.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.
 * See page 31.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.
 * See discussion on cunnilingus for the Indian flying fox, hyena, & bonobo.

Let's divide this extensive topic into two articles, modeling Clitoris after Penis and Human clitoris after Human penis. Peaceray (talk) 05:21, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Survey and discussion

 * Good idea, I agree. Sciencia58 (talk) 09:48, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Entirely reasonable. The penis homology argument is irrelevant really, but could be applied to many anatomical structures (such as ovary). The non-human content seems to be the smaller section and could be moved out with appropriate linkage Michael Goodyear ✐ ✉  15:08, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The homology argument really does not have an influence on the proposal, but needs to be included as appropriate within the articles because it is frequently mentioned in the anatomical sources. Peaceray (talk) 05:07, 23 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Something that's notable can still be covered in another page, per WP:No page. This is a WP:GA, so I don't see benefit in dividing it up simply because the penis articles do that. That may not be ideal even for them; or if it is, it does not follow that the same should be done here. Crossroads -talk- 19:10, 23 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Clitoris & Human Clitoris are both notable, & there are certainly more than enough citations to support both articles. I think this is justified as per WP:CONTENTSPLIT.
 * To be clear, I am not suggesting that we split the article up because there is a Penis article & a Human penis article. I was merely suggesting using those articles as a model.
 * As of 05:00, 24 March 2023 UTC, at over 200,000 bytes, it is twice the threshold for the Rule of Thumb's Readable prose size (kB) at WP:SIZESPLIT. The recommended What to Do is Almost certainly should be divided.
 * I see no reason why a GA article that is too large cannot become two GA articles! Peaceray (talk) 05:10, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment (Followed notification on WP:WH's talk page.) Xtools' reported page size can be misleading, as it looks at the whole page; including image annotations, refs, bibliographies etc, as well as elements invisible to readers (such as markup). Prosesize gives a more accurate count for prose articles and reports a readable page size of 71kB in this instance. Whilst this is comfortably above the >60kB Probably should be divided threshold, that does have the caveat of [...] the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading time. (Please note that Prosesize also has its limitations. For example, it ignores prose formatted within list or table markup.) Little pob (talk) 14:53, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
 * These move discussions come around regularly on the sex-related pages. It always worries me that it is just something to make sex-related information less available and less visible to visitors, especially younger visitors, to the encyclopedia. Why are similar moves so rarely proposed for other anatomy articles? Are we going to move arm to human arm? Toes to human toe? No? I thought not. While we're at it, how long before someone comes along wanting to move masturbation to human masturbation? Foreskin to human foreskin? No. There is no need to bury or hide Wikipedia's articles about sex and sexuality. They're fine where they are - in the place of minimum surprise, where most people would expect to find them. --Nigelj (talk) 12:01, 29 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I would suggest you read WP:SPLITTING. As per WP:Prosesize >60kB, size indicates Probably should be divided (although the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading time) I would argue that there are two different scopes here (human & animal in general). There are certainly enough citations on the subtopic to consider splitting out on the basis of content.
 * Part of my reasoning for a split is that there are significant differences between human clitorises & many animal clitorises.
 * Some animals have a clitoris that only appears internally.
 * The spotted hyena has a pseudo-penis for a clitoris.
 * The clitorises of ostriches & reptiles (including snakes) may have been due to convergent evolution.
 * Also, with respect to your WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST argument, I would note that the toe article is woefully human-centric & possibly anthropormorphic.
 * Regarding arguments of WP:PLA, well, we use for, about, see also, & main all the time. Anyone going to clitoris could quickly find their way to human clitoris. I would argue that we would do a disservice to someone who is just interested in the human clitoris by forcing them to navigate the extensive information about differently shaped, located, or evolutionary animal clitorises. Peaceray (talk) 04:46, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Peaceray Yes, someone who's just discovered that there is such a thing as a clitoris, or that it has a name that can be searched, won't be in the least surprised to find an article about spotted hyenas, ostriches and reptiles. My argument is not about splitting, it's about which article gets the simple, high-traffic, headline name. --Nigelj (talk) 09:12, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * At the risk of WP:WHATABOUT, I would point to the Human behavior, Human body, Human evolution, Human extinction, Human genome, & Human skeleton articles. Do you mean we should have put those in Behavior, Body (biology), Evolution, Extinction, Genome, & Skeleton respectively?
 * I argue against cramming everything into one article. There is plenty of opportunity to grow both clitoris & human clitoris. I think it is a bad idea to rely on high-traffic to justify making an article more complex & lengthy than it needs to be. We have solved the problem of directing readers to subtopics with the for & main templates. Peaceray (talk) 00:36, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Given WP:AT applies (WP:CONSISTENT specifically); then human clitoris is exactly the right target. I'm just wondering what will be left for a broad topic article once the bulk of the human content is split? Or is it that, given the article's size, the split needs to happen first? Little pob (talk) 10:32, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * As to what is left concerning the non-human clitoris, please see my comments & the 50+ references at the Talk:Clitoris section. Peaceray (talk) 02:22, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you have anything sandboxed anywhere? Given the article is tagged WP:GA, it would help assuage fears that no-one works on expanding the content should the split occur. Little pob (talk) 18:08, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't have permissions to edit this page, but the proposal seems reasonable. PistachoCash (talk) 01:36, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Given WP:AT applies (WP:CONSISTENT specifically); then human clitoris is exactly the right target. I'm just wondering what will be left for a broad topic article once the bulk of the human content is split? Or is it that, given the article's size, the split needs to happen first? Little pob (talk) 10:32, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * As to what is left concerning the non-human clitoris, please see my comments & the 50+ references at the Talk:Clitoris section. Peaceray (talk) 02:22, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you have anything sandboxed anywhere? Given the article is tagged WP:GA, it would help assuage fears that no-one works on expanding the content should the split occur. Little pob (talk) 18:08, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't have permissions to edit this page, but the proposal seems reasonable. PistachoCash (talk) 01:36, 30 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The "Other animals" section has grown since the GA review, so a split out of the material in that section to a sub-article looks appropriate. As the primary topic for "clitoris" is the human clitoris, and that is what most readers of this high profile and popular article would be looking for when they type in "clitoris", this main article should retain the name Clitoris, and a disambiguation name sought for the article on animal or non-human clitoris. Possible: Clitoris (non-human), Clitoris (animal), Non-human clitoris, Animal clitoris. SilkTork (talk) 18:24, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that makes sense, & would preserve 's edit history (in sort of a memoriam) as main part of the material being split. Flyer22 Frozen was most responsible for this article, & seemed to be mostly focused on the human clitoris. Peaceray (talk) 19:28, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Split to Animal clitoris
I have actioned the consensus to create an article on animal clitoris. All material from the Other animals section has been moved into Animal clitoris, and I have created a link to the new article and started to summarise and reduce the Other animals section. Work is needed to build the Animal clitoris article, and to finish summarising the Other animals section. Difficult to know which name to use. If folks prefer a different name - Clitoris (non-human), Non-human clitoris, Clitoris (animal), or something else, and there is consensus, then I'll be happy to do the move. SilkTork (talk) 08:40, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I've updated the above from Clitoris (animal) to Animal clitoris. But I'm really not sure which works best. SilkTork (talk) 13:21, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Was there any consensus about the name of this new article? It seems contrary to Wikipedia's usual naming conventions, where articles about human anatomy include the word "human":
 * Brain and Human brain instead of Animal brain and Brain,
 * Reproductive system and Human reproductive system instead of Animal reproductive system and Reproductive system,
 * Penis and Human penis instead of Animal penis and Penis,
 * Skeleton and Human skeleton instead of Animal skeleton and Skeleton,
 * Head and Human head instead of Animal head and Head,
 * Mouth and Human mouth instead of Animal mouth and Mouth.
 * Shouldn't the articles be titled Clitoris and Human clitoris, as suggested in this discussion? Jarble (talk) 14:54, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * No, because the WP:Primary topic for human clitoris is clitoris. While many animals have the body parts you describe above, the clitoris is limited to a rather smaller group of animals, and the bulk of research and available material is on the human clitoris. Such that when talking about the clitoris the assumption is that it is the human clitoris. For example, compare Britannica's article on the [ https://www.britannica.com/science/clitoris clitoris], with that of the penis. The clitoris article is simply about the human clitoris, and does not feel the need to differentiate. The penis article, however, is about the penis in general, and does differentiate when talking about the human penis. I hope that helps. SilkTork (talk) 17:47, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually I think for topics in general it's the main topic and then specific smaller topics and not ANY specific topic as the main topic. So for brain it would be brain, human brain and animal brain but because all animals have a brain of some sort it's also the main topic and makes animal brain redundant. However when people talk about clitoris it's almost always the human one as the main topic. Biofase flame | stalk 12:38, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 August 2023
Hello, I would like to link Dr Helen O’Connell’s Wikipedia page to the existing mention of her name and her work contained in the current Clitoris page. Dr O’Connell’s 1990s research ‘mapped’ the clitoris as we know it today and yet her name is not currently linked out here and this undermines her significance. Thank you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_O%27Connell_(urologist) Tryingtocontributeandeducate (talk) 23:28, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done It's already linked twice. Per WP:OVERLINK we don't link it over and over again. Cannolis (talk) 01:44, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Can we add some skin tone diversity to the photos of genitals in this and other Wikipedia pages?
It’s harmful to have only light skinned photos of anatomy, it marginalized people with darker skin and results in medical mistakes when both medical providers and lay people learn about human anatomy only with a light skin tone. I’m not an expert on medical photos and don’t necessarily but know there has been a long-standing problem in the medical community with this, and it perpetuates racism. Both seeing and treating white people as the “default” and also medical errors and mistreatment of BIPOC people. I just wanted to raise the issue and see if anyone has ideas of where to get some more inclusive photos? Thank you! Mspandana (talk) 05:48, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * All photos come from Wikimedia Commons, so check there. Mathglot (talk) 08:43, 5 December 2023 (UTC)