Talk:Coach Ernie Pantusso

Requested move 15 January 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. I give up; I hope future sources come to their senses. George Ho (talk) 03:48, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Coach Ernie Pantusso → Coach Ernie Pantuso – This is the fifth RM on this article and the second time proposing Pantuso as part of the title. Even when many "reliable" sources use Pantusso, I don't believe it to be an accurate spelling of the Italian surname, Pantuso. The policy WP:COMMONNAMES discourages ambiguous and inaccurate names of any topic. This is no exception. The actor, Nicholas Colasanto, who portrayed this character has been Italian-American, so the character must be implicitly an Italian-American (although rarely or never referenced as Italian). In Italian and English, it's always Pantuso ever since the creators and producers of the show, Cheers, invented this character and his name. George Ho (talk) 11:36, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose. It's "Pantusso" in nearly every source I can find for the topic.--Cúchullain t/ c 15:08, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * As I said, Cuchullain, Pantusso is not an accurate spelling. WP:COMMONNAMES do not allow inaccurate names. These sources do not prove that "Pantusso" is accurate. --George Ho (talk) 19:26, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * This is a fictional character, and most sources spell it this way. "Pantuso" appears to be the spelling that's inaccurate.--Cúchullain t/ c 19:55, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Even when the character is not a "real" person, and even when WP:NCP does not apply, a character can be taken seriously, especially when it comes to treating a character. Sometimes, a character can be treated as a real person. Id est, the actor died, so the character was killed off due to the actor's death. The actor was Italian, so the character should be Italian as well; the writers made him that way due to the casting. Too bad writer Ken Levine uses neither. At least the DVD boxes say "Pantuso". Even "reliable" secondary sources show authors' poor understandings of Italian culture. A character can't be a mere character. Another thing: why is "Pantuso" inaccurate? Following sources use "Pantuso": --George Ho (talk) 20:16, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * "Pantuso" is used, but it's much less common. We go with what the reliable secondary sources say, and "Pantusso" is much more common. 192 Google Books hits for "Ernie Pantusso", 28 for "Ernie Pantuso"; 102 for "Coach Pantusso", 3 for "Coach Pantuso".--Cúchullain t/ c  20:24, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * You still haven't answered my question. By the way, commonality does not indicate accuracy. You haven't proven yet that "Pantusso" is an accurate name, even when more sources use it. --George Ho (talk) 20:30, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Uh, my argument is that "Pantusso" is the accurate name, since it's what most sources for the character use. Your opinion about this fictional character's name being "inaccurate" based on the way real people usually spell it isn't particularly relevant.--Cúchullain t/ c 21:36, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Again, commonality &ne; accuracy. If that's not the case, perhaps writer Ken Levine, who wrote episodes like Boys in the Bar, uses "Pantuso". What about DVD boxes authorized by Paramount Pictures? They also use Pantuso. --George Ho (talk) 21:44, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Sigh. Again, if most sources and the show's own scripts use "Pantusso", it's the most common name, and that's what we go with.--Cúchullain t/ c 22:26, 15 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose. We only care about which spelling most common in secondary sources. Unless the nominator can show that "Pantuso" is the most common spelling, there's no reason to move. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 20:38, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * As I said, I was referring to the accuracy of the name, not the prevalent usage of the current name. --George Ho (talk) 20:43, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Never mind. Pantuso is common name for real Italians and Italian places, like Ristorante Pantuso and Pantuso Dance, and also used for this fictional character. Pantusso refers to only one character, and that's it. Google either one and you get the idea. --George Ho (talk) 21:30, 15 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose No sources provided that state that the producers spelled the last name with one S over 2 S. We go with the spelling that the sources use in reference to the character, not what sources use to reference others people, real or imaginary. JOJ  Hutton  21:50, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't know why the script uses Pantusso. It must have been written by a copy editor, not producers. --George Ho (talk) 22:03, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Well George, it is what it is. Right or wrong, they used Pantusso and every source uses it as well for the character. Wikipedia articles usually don't stray too far from the sources. JOJ  Hutton  22:33, 15 January 2015 (UTC)


 * George, this is the fifth move request you've started on this article in two and a half years, not a one of which was successful. It's time to drop the stick and move on. Powers T 22:27, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose fictional characters can carry spellings that are specifically NOT like the real life ones. Just because some real life people spell it with one "s" does not have any bearing on fictional characters. -- 65.94.40.137 (talk) 04:57, 17 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sourcing for "Pantuso"
As of this morning, the article lead began with the text "Coach Ernie Pantusso (or Pantuso)...", but did not give any source for the spelling "Pantuso". I removed the unsourced information. Now it has been added back, with references claimed to support it. I will not be edit warring over this spelling, but in fact neither of the provided references gives an acceptable source.

The first is a blog posting by Ken Levine, who worked on Cheers, but the blog posting does not contain the spelling "Pantuso", nor "Pantusso", nor any discussion of the character. One pseudonymous commenter does use the spelling "Pantuso" in an incidental comment, but that is not an acceptable source. The other reference given is to a story from 1992 in the sports section of the Boca Raton News, supported by a link to an image of the newspaper hosted on Google News. I cannot find the word "Pantuso" in the story, in the sports section, or elsewhere in that issue of the newspaper; nor can I find the spelling "Pantusso", nor any discussion of the character. Even if I could, it would also not be an acceptable source, as there is no article in that newspaper specifically discussing the correct spelling of this one fictional character's name.

As I said, I won't be edit warring over this. I have, in fact, already spent more time than is rational examining these sources to see if they discuss the name of a fictional character. However, if the article is going to suggest that the name might be spelled one way, it needs a source (or, preferably, more than one) saying that it is so. It does not have such sources at this time. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 20:20, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The sports column uses "Pantuso". It's hard to look though. Look for "borders on the Adriatic" under the source. I'll replace the blog post soon. --George Ho (talk) 20:47, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Upon further examination, you are correct that the column does say this. That was my mistake. However, it is still not an acceptable source for the assertion that this character is commonly known by that spelling; it's a one-off mention in a sports column. If you replace these sources with others, please don't simply do a Google search for "Coach Pantuso" and paste in anything you find; that is a waste of everyone's time. Instead, please find a source that specifically discusses the spelling of this character's name. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 21:02, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Same goes for sources that use "Pantusso". --George Ho (talk) 21:04, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I added two more to your pleasure. George Ho (talk) 21:15, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The Cult TV reference seems good. The Huffington Post one is debatable. Thank you, though, for actually looking things up. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 21:27, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added tag to http://www.playbill.com/news/article/124139-Robert-Prosky-Seasoned-Actor-of-Stage-Film-and-Television-Dies-at-77
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121216004946/http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/cheersseason3.php to http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/cheersseason3.php

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Requested move 11 April 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved to the proposed title. Kraose (talk) 06:16, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Coach Ernie Pantusso → Ernie Pantusso – I reverted a recent attempt to remove "Coach" from the article title. I am starting this discussion, so we can decide whether or not to remove "Coach". George Ho (talk) 04:23, 11 April 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. buidhe 05:33, 18 April 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. buidhe 05:50, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I was the one who made the move, and I apologize for not seeing the previous discussion on this. I support the move (unsurprisingly) in the sense that "Coach" is not part of the character's name, per se, but I do concede that it is by what he is most commonly known. Admittedly, Ernie "Coach" Pantusso would be a reasonable title also, but some indication that "Coach" is a nickname and/or a title is important. -- <strong style="color:blue">Kinu <i style="color: red">t</i>/<i style="color:red">c</i> 04:34, 11 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Among all the reasonable possibilities for this article title, this particular proposal is last on the list. -- Netoholic @ 06:30, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * More information as to why you feel that way would be constructive. -- <strong style="color:blue">Kinu <i style="color: red">t</i>/<i style="color:red">c</i> 02:45, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The character is known far more as "Coach" than "Ernie Pantusso". Any title which fails to include "Coach" can be eliminated as an option out-of-hand. -- Netoholic @ 18:24, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Would a title such as Ernie "Coach" Pantusso (which is currently a redirect anyway) be more reasonable, as suggested above? Such a title indicates that "Coach" is this character's nickname, but also satisfies WP:COMMONNAME. -- <strong style="color:blue">Kinu <i style="color: red">t</i>/<i style="color:red">c</i> 01:12, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The title you requested is no special exception to WP:TITLEFORMAT, which normally discourages using quotation marks in titles unless (officially?) part of the name. I don't think it's more commonly used than the current name, is it? George Ho (talk) 03:11, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't have any specific objection to Ernie "Coach" Pantusso as some high-quality sources use that formatting, but I don't think a change is necessary. -- Netoholic @ 08:55, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * That source, while reliable, commonly calls the character "Coach" all over the section and uses "Ernie 'Coach' Pantusso" as the chapter name. And even the same source also uses the current name. Let's compare ones using the current name (news, books), and the one Kinu is proposing (news, books). George Ho (talk) 09:48, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * commonly calls the character "Coach" is kind of misleading. Its often the case that sources will state the full name of someone early on, and then use a last name or nickname as shorthand throughout the rest of the body text (just as we do).  This is for brevity, not an indication of "common" usage. For deciding what to use as article tiles, we should be looking for things like this chapter title and introductory lines. -- Netoholic @ 02:03, 27 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Main title headers of Wikipedia entries delineating fictional characters use forms by which the characters are most frequently referenced — Inspector Morse, Sergeant Hathaway, The Professor (Gilligan's Island). Since the character's key name is "Coach" and the forms Coach (Cheers) or Coach Pantusso had not found consensus (Talk:Coach Ernie Pantusso/Archives/2013), the existing form, Coach Ernie Pantusso, needs to remain. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:29, 5 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reinsert Pantuso?
I don't know why you assume "Pantuso" is an incorrect name. The sources do use "Pantuso", and I don't believe these sources are incorrect. I'm not demanding reinsertion this time for now. I just would like to know why you think the removal helps more. --George Ho (talk) 08:55, 8 February 2021 (UTC)