Talk:Coast Tsimshian dialect

Titling issue: needs move
This should be titled "Coast Tsimshian language", though from what I see on the Tsimshian page "Coast Tsimshian" is no longer acceptable/the norm; so content here should be moved to either Tsimshian language or Sm'algyax (whatever the right apostrophe to use is) as per other FN language articles; note Tsimshianic languages is for the language GROUP which includes the Nisga'a language and Gitxsan language; and Tsimshian language seems to exist, unless it's a redirect to here; if it exists separately I'll put up a merge template on both pages). Some BC FN language articles use the accepted English form, others use the native-language form, e.g. the contrast between Nuu-chah-nulth language, Thompson language vs. St'at'imcets and Kwak'wala; the English form is more or less preferable, partly because of variant spelling/character sets used by native languages.Skookum1 21:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * re Tsimshian language - it's a redirect to Tsimshian and shouldn't be in the long run; so Tsimshian language should be converted from a redirect to the content in this article; Sm'algyax would be an OK title but it could also just be a redirect to Tsimshian language, which is what people are going to look for unlesss they're a trained linguist or a Tsimshian FN person and know better.... If there's no objects in a week or so I'll do the changes myself.  I'll post something on Talk:Tsimshian about this to alert people monitoring that page, which seems heavily-contributed on, for further input/discussion.Skookum1 21:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Total support. As for Tsimshian language vs Sm'algyax, it doesn't really matter to me. The main Tsimshian (people) article is still listed as Tsimshian - is there another word for themselves in their language? - TheMightyQuill 00:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Collectively, I'm not sure; "Git-" means "people of" and it's in all their placenames; but as a collective name I think that's the point of Tsimshian, which used to be applied to Gitxsan and Nisga'a as well but apparently that's "wrong"....I'll ask around; but in general the usual English name is, to me, preferable, as also with the language names; no one knows to look for Sm'algyax but they might know to look for Tsimshian language, for instance; OldManRivers and I have debated this at lengthy on Talk:Squamish Nation and Talk:Skxwxu7mesh Uxwuimixw (or is that Talk:Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw? - which sort proves my point, too, about people having to wrestling with "indigenous spellings"...there's also Skwxwu7mesh Uxwumixw, which OMR himself created at one point.......I still misspell Tsilhqot'in even though I know better (the standard error is Tshilhqot'in so I guess I might as well make that a redirect...as also Chilcotin people and Chilcotin (people) if they're not made already; so many variations/redirects to make, so little time; equally anthing like Cape Mudge Indian Band is also Cape Mudge First Nation, and Cape Mudge Nation, and THAT is just in English....).Skookum1 00:43, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Made those Tsilhqot'in redirects just now; got me wondering if we shouldn't also have redirects of the form "Bandname (tribe)" which is a standard, though unfortunate, US-side format in the Indigenous project; it's also often used to go to government/agency articles, as opposed to ethno articles, but in the long run that should get resolved as the project proceeds as it's been discussed there, at least in terms of separating ethno and government articles; one reason being that, at least in Canada and often in the US, the chartered government as we know it is viewed as ilegitimate, a "creature of the Indian Act" or in the US of whatever malformed treaty situations produced the agency-government system - it's because of the multi-tribal nature of those agencies that the issue of separate ethno articles became important; likewise in BC because of the many bi-national Tribal Councils; but which again, other than the Nicolas, are post-Indian Act creations (the Scw'exmx-Chief Nicola; there's also the complex hereditary regimes/lineages and different village-groups as laid out on Tsimshian (with similar complexities ultimately throughout the coastal peoples; try any one of the Tsimshian "Git-" village articles I've just added the WPBC and WPIndigenousNorthAm templates to, and you'll see what I mean; then there's the Gitxsan Nation article, which its writer included (not unrightly) in Category:Micronations...but if applied across the board that category would have another 200 Canadian First Nations in it, from the haudenosaunee through to the Gitxsan-Wet'su-we'ten Confederacy (the overall plaintiff of the Delgamuukw v. Regina legal case, the appeal of which established that hereditary and customary aboriginal laws are, in fact, part of British Common Law, beiong of the same kind of body of local tradition that formed British Common Law; in other words, they really are governments and when self-defined, micronations, in addition to the Indian Act governments (band councils, tribal councils; although they mirror the Indian Act creations, they're not the same thing though, which is what User:OldManRivers can tell you, or again the discussion at Talk:Somena; then there's the standalones like Pacheedaht, which don't want to be classified as Nuu-chah-nulth as that associates them with the Sheshaht/[Tseshaht]] (sp?) of Port Alberni, who they suffered at warfare under right into colonial times....and there's the Lytton First Nation, part of the Nlaka'pamux people and the largest single band government among them, but which doesn't belong to any of the three Nlaka'pamux Tribal Councils...not sure why.....Skookum1 01:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I don't think it matters what people look for, as long as it's in the right place, and there are appropriate redirects and links on relate pages. I mean, people are quite likely to misspell Tsimshian as well. I would probably misspell it myself, then try to remember how to spell Metlakatla (which originates from Maxłakxaała, and, oddly,redirects to Metlakatla, Alaska), or failing that Port Simpson (which is redirected to Lax Kw'alaams). At any rate, all of those have links to Tsimshian, so I would find it without much difficulty no matter how it's spelled. As for appending (tribe) to the end, I think that's purely for disambig - no one is going to search for "Gitxsan (tribe)" - TheMightyQuill 02:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Americans might - it's a common format in US-side Indigenous peoples articles. Anyway, I see you've made the Gitxsan and Gitxsanimaax changes from Gitksan; pls note that I'll be splitting - or you can - Gitxsan from being a redirect to Gitxsan Nation; in the murk and volume above, as on other discussion pages and as you can find within WPIndPeoples there should be on article for the ethno/people/history material, and a separate for governmental/constitutional.  See the dab lines that User:OldManRivers has created for Skwxwu7mesh and Squamish Nation, and see the talkpages at both of those.  ooops; that's here (what I just took out); I was thinking in the last few days to make a table for a backpage of the BC project of what articles exist for what people, x-refing to language articles etc; as a point of reference for other editors, and also indicating what still needs to be done (other than expanding slews of stubs, and creating various band and IR articles...and lots of bios, ultimately, too....)Skookum1 03:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

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