Talk:Columbidae/Archive 1

picture
www.multanfancypigeons.co.cc

the picture has been vandelized. can someone who's wiki-savvy fix it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drewboy64 (talk • contribs) 19:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Please, can this be renamed to "Doves and pigeons"?
As several people have commented, it is confusing for the article about the entire Columbidae family to have the name "Dove." Is there a good reason not to rename it to "Doves and pigeons"?--orlady 20:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * How about Columbidae instead? It's a very good suggestion you've made, to ensure that the title is unambiguous. Though unambiguous, I just think that "doves and pigeons" is a little unwieldy. By the way, pigeon currently redirects to rock pigeon; after this move that should probably be made to redirect here instead. — coe l acan t a lk  — 15:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Ugh, no, pigeon redirects to Rock Pigeon, and rock pigeon is a different page entirely. What a mess. — coe l acan t a lk  — 15:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I also think that Columbidae would be best; Rock pigeon is an unsourced substub that should be turned into a redirect to Rock Pigeon. As for Dove and Pigeon, I'm not sure if they should be redirects to Columbidae or to Rock Pigeon (as the most common species) — taking a brief look, many links are fairly indiscriminate such as "The coat of arms of Cyprus depicts a dove..." so it shouldn't really matter in most cases. Duja ► 11:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I am happy with the idea of Columbidae. I don't particularly like the idea of making either Dove or Pigeon resolve to a single species, since both common names are applied to multiple species. Better would be for both of those terms to resolve to disambiguation pages.--orlady 13:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Doves and pigeons would be better but I vote for Columbidae. It is confusing the way we've got it. Jimp 05:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I've moved the page to Columbidae, per the discussion above, and moved Dove (disambiguation) to Dove. I think I've got all the redirects pointed appropriately (although Pigeon still is a redirect to Rock Pigeon; I wasn't sure about that one), but I certainly invite anybody to double check my work. -GTBacchus(talk) 00:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Um, moving of Dove (disambiguation) to Dove wasn't intended or mentioned as part of the deal??? Now we have zillion pages linking to a longish dab page; I guess everyone would agree that the bird (be it entire family or just the domestic pigeon) is the primary usage; plus, Talk:Dove redirects here. I'll revert that part of the move, as it makes more damage than benefit. Duja ► 14:51, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

NPOV, blatant anti-dove bias
Methinks a hawk has been editing this page, as this sentence is blatantly POV

The poorly constructed nests are made of sticks,

I can't think of a good resolution though, so I'll just stick up the tag and wait for consensus. --Cyde Weys votetalk 18:33, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the nests are kind of poorly constructed, if you look at them, or you might rather say "simply." Andamansea (talk) 22:49, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

In what way are they poor or simple? Descriptive phrases can be longer than one word. User:Pedant (talk) 00:26, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * They are notoriously flimsy. Check out this image of a fruit-dove nest. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  02:36, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Recipes
any good recipes?

This would be an important aspect - considering that pigeons have become a pest/menace in many parts of the world. London has banned feeding of grains to pigeons at the fountains at Picadilly Circus and in the parks. So also Amsterdam has banned the feeding of pigeons as they mess up all the buildings and places with their poop. In India (Chennai) we have had to think up ways of combating this menace and have spent valuable money on this and havenot yet succeeded.

Popularising good recipes based on pigeon meat would be one sensible approach to provide more food to humans and at the same time limit the nuisance created by this bird.

I have another suggestion - to find uses for chicken poop. Audi krishnan (talk) 17:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Headline text
Clubs

I was wondering if we could add clubs in here? LdyDragonfly 21:47, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * no, only one species has clubs. jimfbleak 05:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Does this mean we can't list assorted organizations as wellLdyDragonfly 04:21, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

homosexual symbol?
Someone has asserted that in the U.S. "(c)alling someone dove is a derogatory term for "gayness" or being homosexual." With nearly four decades in the U.S., I have never heard this association made. Near as I can tell, some editor dislikes pacifist "doves" and is trying to insinuate that pacifism=homosexuality. I'm removing unless someone can come up with any viable citations. 171.159.64.10 01:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC) p.s. Why nothing on eating pigeons? That's what I came to the page for!
 * this edit was not originally ccountry-specific, as far as I remember. I may have added US because I've never heard this in Europe. jimfbleak 05:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I've heard of "Dovetail", but that means to "come together". I've never heard of anyone who's homosexual be called a "dove"
 * --69.137.135.33 02:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I know of the term in this context, but in the United Kingdom rather than the US... it's hardly a common term, though. Not worthy of inclusion anyway, and almost certainly it's not cited anywhere online apart from probably Urban Dictionary, if anywhere. 83.100.182.153 00:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

In 50 years of speaking and listening to English throughout the U.S. I have never heard of dove as being anything related to homosexual. User:Pedant (talk) 00:30, 19 October 2009 (UTC) .

disease carriers?
The current entry says: The species commonly referred to just as the "pigeon" is the feral Rock Pigeon, a city pest that is also known as "airborne rat" by its bad habit of spreading dirt and disease

Certainly it is called "airborne rat" (and "flying rat") and they do produce "dirt" (pigeon droppings and feathers) - but I don't know that they spread much in the way of disease. I have lived in cities all my life, in close association with pigeons, but I've never come down with any illness I could attribute directly to these birds - nor do I know of anyone who has - nor am I aware of any medical/scientific data on the subject (though there may indeed be some). Seems to me, just from anecdotal evidence alone, that if pigeons are disease spreaders, then it must be at a pretty low rate, or practically negligible.

If they do spread diseases, then we should say which ones. WikiLambo 05:18, 25 October 2006 (UTC)James Lambert


 * Even if any of this is true (I've never heard them called "flying rats"), it should be on the species page, not here - same with pigeon fancier. jimfbleak 05:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Fortunately, pigeons do not carry any more diseases than any other wild animal; basically there's very little risk of getting sick from a pigeon. Here's some info: http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/zoonoses/ I'm planning to add it to the page.Devotchka 18:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It would make more sense to add it to the feral pigeon, not to the family of 300 species. jimfbleak 06:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

squab?
Isn't squab the name for pigeon meat? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.206.165.18 (talk) 04:29, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
 * because it's the young birds that are eaten with domestic doves. jimfbleak 17:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * http://www.epicurious.com/cooking/how_to/food_dictionary/entry?id=4728 Mathiastck 19:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Merge???
Could this be merged with Columbiformes, as it is the only family in the order. I don't know how you go about doing that sort of thing, so could someone enlighten me or do it themselves. Dixonsej 20:21 14 May 2007

missing information
"Links to the sandgrouse and parrots have been suggested, but resemblances to the first group are due to convergent evolution and the second depend on the parrot-like features of the ."

Of the what? Does someone know the correct conclusion to this sentence? If not, I'm going to remove it/change so that there isn't this awkward gap. Helikophis 17:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I've fixed it. Jimfbleak 18:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Helikophis 19:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

There should be a section about their characteristics, especially mating, as it makes doves a very unique creature. Doves mate for life (could be included in the symbolism section as doves have been used as a symbol of purity in Judeo-Christian texts). When the mate passes away, the survivor will find a new mate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.163.230.205 (talk) 20:21, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

doves in mythology
I was just reading Umberto Eco's The Island of the Day Before and there's a whole section about the appearance of doves in mythology and their symbolism in terms of sexuality, fidelity, etc. For example: Doves, however, are something more and better than any Semiramis, and we fall in love with them because they have this other, most tender characteristic: they weep or moan instead of singing, as if all that sated passion never satisfied them. Idem cantus gemitusque, said an Emblem of Camerarius; Gemitibus Gaudet, said another even more erotically fascinating. And maddening.

And yet the fact that these birds kiss and are so lewd -- and here is a fine contradiction that distinguishes the dove --  is also proof that they are totally faithful, and hence they are also the symbol of chastity, in the sense of conjugal fidelity. And this, too, Pliny said: Though most amorous, they have a great sense of modesty and do not know adultery. Their conjugal fidelity is asserted both by the pagan Propertius and by Tertullian.

There's more but I don't want to break copyright. If all this is really true, it's really interesting, could it be worked into the article? Sbwoodside 03:48, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * This can't refer to all 300 species, probably relates to domesticated doves, so if anywhere should be there. Jimfbleak 05:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, you're right, there's a large myth section under Rock Pigeon. Why didn't I find this? I think, because of this sentence in the intro: The species commonly referred to just as the "pigeon" is the feral Rock Pigeon, common in many cities. But no-one talks about the "symbology" of a pigeon. So, what to do? Sbwoodside 02:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Pigeon Menace and approaches to a solution
Of late, pigeons have proliferated in large cities because of the beneficial and kindly treatment at the hands of the human population. Many religions foster the feeding of doves (Jainism and Hinduism  for example).There is Municipal/Town Council supported feeding of pigeons and also the  use of pigeon feeding in public places as tourist attractions ((Traflagar Square, London and Amsterdam)  There is also the belief that breathing in the air beaten by the doves as they fly from the feeding place (kabutar khana in Hindi) relieves asthma.  And city cats do not appear to be much interested in or capable of hunting doves.  All these have provided regular and sumptuous food for pigeons and protection from slaughter with the result that their numbers have increased greatly so as to convert them into a nuisance even a menace.

In Chennai, we can't leave our windows open even for short periods as doves come indoors and build nests or get hit by the ceiling fans. In any case they litter our clean bed sheets and clothes with their poop. Cities like London and Amsterdam have passed legislation in their Municipal Councils or appropriate bodies to make it an offence to feed doves at the Trafalgar Square and such places.

It is time that a proper study is made of the following : Audi krishnan (talk) 18:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) is the air which flows from the beating wings of doves beneficial to Asthmatics ?
 * 2) is any valuable commercial product possible from pigeon poop ( which releases VERY POWERFUL FUMES when we pour water on to it to cleanup the mess) ?
 * 3) is it possible to develop a range of widely accepted recipes which could be used to augment the food supply in various cities affected by this menace ?

Poor grammar; inconsistent usage
Many of the paragraphs begin with the phrase "The pigeons and doves..." of which the word "The" is unnecessary. I started to correct some of these, but found other errors which would require massive rewrites. For another thing, the author uses the words "species" and "family" interchangeably; they are not the same. Skaizun (talk) 19:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Surely the first matter is a question of taste. As for the second, can you indicate a place where I have used them interchangeably? The only mistake I could see was

The species has adapted to most of the habitats available on the planet, which should read The family has adapted to most of the habitats available on the planet, as it is the family that is widespread, not any one species. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  19:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Dalmation Pidgeon?
I saw twice in my life these two pigeons that were white with black polka dots? Was I hallucinating, or is there a species like this?--76.173.255.40 (talk) 00:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Most likely an unusual colour morph of the feral pigeon. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  00:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, them beaks is magnetic
Apparently, this is true, as per this

Dodo/Passenger Pigeon Links
Shouldn't Dodo and Passenger Pigeon be blue links to their articles here: ?

"...two of the world's most famous extinct species, the Dodo and the Passenger Pigeon." (in the last paragraph).

Sorry, I'm new, I don't know how to do this.

Andamansea (talk) 22:57, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

In religion
" In the Old Testament in the Bible, Noah sends out a dove after the flood. In the New Testament a dove is the symbol of the Holy Spirit. In Islam, doves and the pigeon clan in general are respected and favoured because they are believed to have assisted the prophet of Islam, Muhammad in distracting his enemies outside the cave of Thaw'r in the great Hijra. "' is dove clan the right word here? User:Pedant (talk) 18:35, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Peace symbol
the dove. God Bless! --WhiteInKnights (talk) 16:59, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

pigeons and doves are not the same, colloquially
the article states:

"In general parlance the terms "dove" and "pigeon" are used somewhat interchangeably."

this is blatantly untrue, as far as i can tell. a small anecdotal survey has relatively indisputable results: while pigeon and dove may be the same to ornithologists, lay people call white things doves, and the other ones are pigeons. also, we like doves (probably because of the bible), and we don't like pigeons (we call them flying-rats and such).

i've changed the page several times to reflect this error, but it keeps getting changed back. at the very least, seems like this claim needs a citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshuav (talk • contribs) 05:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * In both the instances you use as examples you are referring to morphs of the same species, thus they are interchangeable, somewhat, both names being used for the same species (moreover the species is known both as the Rock Dove and the Rock Pigeon). Moreover this article is not only about the feral pigeons you see in city squares and the pretty doves released at ceremonies, it is about the 300 odd species known collectively as pigeons and doves, and on the whole the name is used interchangeably for the family as a whole. Sabine's Sunbird   talk  02:28, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The guy states his own problem right there, "lay people" are ignorant idjits and know nothing about what a dove looks like, generally, so they are hardly some kind of reliable source. Also reflects our prejudices a little, Pigeons are "flying-rats" and doves are symbols of peace, but they're both the same thing. 174.112.16.133 (talk) 14:32, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Threats and Conservation
I've got something for this, they're freaking idiots. Just went out for a smoke and one jumped out of a potted plant not five feet from my door, where theres a nest and egg. What kind of stupid place is that?

"Evolutionary Speculation" section rewritten
I definitely think someone needs to rewrite this section. It definitely sounds as if the entire article was written by one person, and the section contains only one true citation, though other works are mentioned. This is an encyclopedia article, not a personal reflection. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mwakin21 (talk • contribs) 00:18, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Scope and name of article
I think we need to split this one. The taxobox is getting out of control! What happens when we get to the really big families - parrots or hummingbirds, for example? Unfortunately, there seem to be no sensible sub-groups, or so my quick recourse to HANZAB suggests. Maybe we are stuck with it as is. Or a geographical split? Nope, that could get messy too. Just plug in more text to balance it, I guess. Tannin


 * I agree, It's also 90 years out-of-date. I moved it here from turtle-dove, a biblical article. I'll sort it when I get time, but I'm going birding soon jimfbleak


 * I retract out-of-date, but the long list of genera includes a number that don't appear in my 1980 world checklist. I've nothing else to check with on an overall basis. I can't see any sensible way of splitting the topic that would be clear to non-birders, but it will have to be done eventually. The good news is that most of the genera have only a few members, only three or four have more than 5 species. jimfbleak 17:21 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)


 * I've re-ordered it to the genus order in Lynx HBW, and put in their subfamilies as sections to make future editing easier - MPF 12:32, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * I have updated the taxonomical lineup according to newer research (cited). I have also remarked on the problems with said research. In the Columbidae, we have the problem that one can positively say that each and every taxonomic approach published in a major reference work is wrong (mainly because of the non-monophyly of the Columbinae sensu Goodwin), but there has not been a comprehensive treatment that takes this into account yet, so the arrangement as presented while not original research is sort of ground-breaking. Unfortunately, molecular systematicists seem to be (though there are exceptions) bad taxonomists - that is to say, it has been happy splitting galore, but no taxon names have been proposed. I think that the systematics in its present form represents the most current scientific consensus brought together, but I may be wrong.

I'm a little confused. Pigeon redirects to Dove and from what I gather the pigeon is also called the Rock Dove. I think it would be better if a knowledgable individual could replace Pigeon with a short article explaining what species are usually considered pigeons. ThereIsNoSteve 09:00, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The reason that pigeon redirects to Dove is that the terms are effectively interchangeable, and there is no particular biological logic to it. The domesticated form of the wild Rock Dove is called the Feral Pigeon (explained under that article). The closest relatives of the Rock Dove in Europe are the Stock Dove and the Woodpigeon. It makes more sense to keep them all together, and at least that means that material won't be duplicated. Jim

Yep - it is hopeless trying to distinguish pigeons and doves. The origin of the confusion is that pigeon is a French-derived word, and described the meat, while dove is a Germanic word (compare German Taube, which would have been something like Doof before the Hochdeutsch sound shifts got at it, long after Anglo-Saxon had split off - probably still is in Dutch) describing the live bird. And the reason is medieval English history - the meat was eaten by French-speaking Normans and the animals were looked after by Anglo-Saxon-speaking Saxons. It's exactly the same as beef/cow, pork/swine, mutton/sheep, venison/deer, and poultry/hen. So the inhabitants of a dove cot were served up as pigeon. And somewhere round the history of finding and naming new species, some of them got called doves and some got called pigeons, and that's all there is to it. seglea 18:25, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Duif in Dutch! - MPF 23:24, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Further on the pigeon/dove lack of difference, there's a nice little a spoof rhyme in French on the representation of the Holy Spirit by a dove, which translates well into English:
 * The three basics of Religion,
 * The Father, the Son, and the Pigeon (Anon., trad.) - MPF 23:24, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

What is the geographic origin of pigeons?

I read in Encyclopaedia Britannica that the ancestral home of the pigeon is Australia. I think to my knowledge, Australia has the greatest number of pigeon species in the world. The rock dove itself is a Middle Eastern species (around Iraq) I think Frances76 (talk) 00:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I beg to differ with Jim and MPF. Jim says "The reason that pigeon redirects to Dove is that the terms are effectively interchangeable, and there is no particular biological logic to it." And MPF says "...it is hopeless trying to distinguish pigeons and doves." I used to breed pidgeons and doves, and I must say that these terms are most definitely NOT interchangeable when talking about differing species, despite what "biologists" have to say about it. In the end, "biology" is the mere naming of things in Latin. And naming everything in Latin makes PERFECT sense. (As opposed to say, Japanese, Icelandic or Zulu) ;-)

I think it is only hopeless for those trying to distinguish between pigeons and doves to those who CAN'T. But as someone who used to breed a few species of these birds, I can say that there are most definitely marked differences. Are hamsters, rats and mice all "rats" then? (I used to breed these too.) There are marked differences in size, head, beak, and nostril shapes. The feathers also differ in structure and pliability. Pidgeons are to doves as rats are to mice. I can most definitely distinguish between quite a few species thank you very much. By the logic of "they're all so similar we should just create one big group called "columbidae," why don't we just make one big class all called "birds?" Why, they all have wings, hatch out of eggs, and for the most part, have beaks and feathers. (I also bred parakeets, love birds, conures, parrots, and even cockatoos. Maybe these are all one big group we can't distinguish from too?) Whoever says "oh look! there goes a columbidae!"? Or "my, what a brightly colored psittacidae." There are most definitely differences, and they are most definitely distinguishable.

Place a white dove and a white pidgeon before me and I can tell them apart. The size, beak, head, feather, feet, movement and call are all completely different.

I too think there needs to be a distinction. Two separate entries, or a split in this one entry. "Columbidae" indeed. If they can't tell the difference, I dare say Latin-loving biologists have their heads up their arses.Kogejoe (talk) 01:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This article is for the biological family Columbidae, which is comprised of pigeons and doves. The Manual of Style strongly argues against using plurals in titles, which precludes us from naming the article pigeons and doves, and since so many people objected to it being called pigeon or dove, it had to sit at Columbidae. Yes, no one says  "oh look! there goes a columbidae!"?, but what can you do?
 * With regard to your claim that you could separate a dove from a pigeon with little effort, I'd suggest that may be true if presented with the limited number of species in aviculture. However there are many hundreds of species of pigeon and dove, but the basis by which they are called dove or pigeon is purely a product of their size. You will find doves that are more closely related to pigeons than they are other doves and visa versa. Contrast this with the Glareolidae, which are the pratincole and coursers, they are very different and they are evolutionary distinct lineages. No such distinctness exists for pigeons and doves, anymore than it exists for herons and egrets. Dove or pigeon, as a term which includes some species but excludes others, is essentially as meaningless as eagle. Of course, as you mention, they are terms that the layman is familiar with, which is why they are used frequently in the body of the text, in preference to Columbidae, but the gist is that when taken over the whole family (not just those in aviculture), Columbidae is more correct. Sabine's Sunbird   talk  02:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we need something more obvious than disambiguation tags at the top of the page. I'm thinking something along the lines of "For an article on the pigeons commonly found in urban environments, see feral pigeon." Usually it's easy to tell when you've landed at the wrong subject ("orange" the fruit vs. "orange" the color), but a lot of people, when they see that "pigeon" redirects here, might assume that Columbidae is simply a fancy name for domestic pigeons. That leads to a lot of disagreement about what is and isn't a pigeon, how much distinction there is between pigeons and doves, etc.99.130.89.67 (talk) 15:25, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree, anything that can be done to help the ordinary reader would be an improvement. Make it obvious! We should not assume prior knowledge of either the subject matter or the structure of Wikipedia ornithology articles. How is the first-time visitor supposed to know there are several different articles that the name pigeon or dove could apply to? I would guess the overwhelming majority of readers landing at this page are actually interested in either Feral Pigeon, Domestic Pigeon, or Fancy Pigeon. So, let's help them get there. Also, having the photo of the feral pigeon at the top of the Columbidae article does not help to clarify the matter. (I think the photo should be a Luzon Bleeding-heart, which would call attention to the conservation aspect, as well as make it more obvious that this article is not just about Rock Pigeons.)--Brambleshire (talk) 17:38, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I added a hatnote to help readers get to the articles on the pigeon familar to people around the world. I used that wording because those pigeons are not restricted to cities and towns.  Then I manually combined the two disambiguation tags because I think three hatnotes is too many.--Brambleshire (talk) 18:08, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Unsigned Comment: November 2010
November 1, 2010: The introduction of this article contains inaccurate information, for example that pigeons and doves used to be cuban drug smugglers in their past lives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.38.42.30 (talk) 00:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

November 6, 2010: Should not "flock" be "cote" instead? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.177.158 (talk) 21:39, 6 January 2011 (UTC)