Talk:Cornelis Ketel

Beginning
This is the barest of stubs. Hop in! - PKM (talk) 03:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Less stubby now but needs work. - PKM (talk) 07:36, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Johnbod, thanks; I was hoping your Dutch catalogue would have some useful info on Ketel's later career, which lasted three times as long as his London period. - PKM (talk) 18:30, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I've exhausted my sources now! The close-up pic that prompted the quote (not by CK)) was this of the young Grotius, which is several steps beyond any of the commons images (by a pupil of P Pietersz). Is there an on-line translation of van Mander? Johnbod (talk) 22:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't find an online translation of van Mander. Great additions, thanks.  I'll try to add some more images.
 * I've put up a joint DYK nom, feel free to work on a better hook. - PKM (talk) 22:22, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

expulsion from France
copied from Wetman's talk: Spanish Netherlands is not really right for 1567 (nor was the version before). I was wondering why the French expelled Netherlanders, and was it religion-dependent? Can you cast any light - is it in one of those Edict articles of yours? We don't seem to have Ketel's religion. Johnbod (talk) 15:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Habsburg Netherlands, then? Catherine de' Medici's intrigues with the Habsburg Philip played a destabilising role in the French Wars of Religion; the currently active phase was the "Second War": Philip II reinforced the strategic corridor from Italy north along the Rhine and made an unsuccessful attempt at taking control of Charles IX. This provoked the further outburst of hostilities (the "Second War") which ended in another unsatisfactory truce, the Peace of Longjumeau (March 1568). Are you sure all Netherlandish subjects of Philip were expelled? France at that moment might have been an insecure place for a {Protestant?) portrait-painter. --Wetman (talk) 15:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No, that is all from Hearn, PKM's source - all new to me (as is Ketel in general). One expects he was Protestant, but you can never tell. I will copy this to the talk page. Johnbod (talk) 16:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Hearn says all people from Spanish-controlled areas were forced to return, which kept Ketel from travelling through France and on to Italy, roughly; I'll get the exact quote. "Spanish Netherlands" was my interpolation, and "Hapsburg Netherlands" is much better. I've been trying to find out if he was a Protestant, but no luck so far; that he was one of a group of Netherlandish Protestant exiles in London in the 1570s would be a good factoid if supportable (it's certainly logical). - PKM (talk) 22:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Would a Catholic Netherlander have sought his fortune in London in the 1570s? Hearn may provide the answer. --Wetman (talk) 03:06, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps easier than in Amsterdam in the 1580s! Johnbod (talk) 03:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's the quote from Hearn: "He completed his training in Paris and at Fontainebleau, but was prevented from going on to Italy by a French decree that forced all visitors from Spanish territories to go home" (p. 104).
 * One or both of you have access to JSTOR, yes? The missing link may be here: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0951-0788(191211)22%3A116%3C88%3ANOPITR%3E2.0.CO%3B2-Q - the Google summary says "... Ketel then went to Paris, but left it on account of the religious ..."
 * And the exact item from Hearn is that Ketel introduced "life size full length" (rather than group) portraits to the Dutch burghers. - PKM (talk) 03:50, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's what JSTOR says: "Ketel then went to Paris, but left it on account of the religious troubles, for which same reason he quitted Gouda in 1573, and, like so many other artists, took refuge in England" (Lionel Cust, "Notes on Pictures in the Royal Collections-XXIV. On Some Portraits by Cornelis Ketel," in The Burlington Magazine for Connoisseurs, vol. 22, no. 116. (Nov., 1912), pp. 88-89+92-94; p. 93). There isn't any more specific information about leaving Gouda though and he seems to have left Antwerp for South Holland fairly early. That might have influenced his move to Amsterdam later (where there was a good market for portraits, both group and single sitter). --Stomme (talk) 05:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * On the full-length issue, all my Dutch books mention the Rosencrans group, but none mention Ketel single full-lengths in Amsterdam, nor do we have any examples yet. On the other hand he was clearly used to the format from London. But now I find (Rudi Ekkart in Dutch Portraits 2006, p.18):"Around 1618, Cornelis Van der Voort introduced life-size, full-length likenesses of burghers to the Amsterdam market, a type of portrait previously reserved mainly for rulers and high-ranking nobles."  Several earlier painters have been characterised as producing hip or knee-length portraits.  Van der Voort is probably Ketel's pupil, which is interesting, but I think the article text is best left as it now is.  Johnbod (talk) 20:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. We've come a long way in 5 days. - PKM (talk) 04:26, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Wisht I could see Carel v. Mander's remarks about Fontainebleau: more artists "went to Fontainebleau" through the medium of engravings than ever were at work there.--Wetman (talk) 04:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well since you've been good (waves very wonky wand):

"trock hy nae Parijs in Vranckrijck, en quam te Fonteyne Bleau, doe hy had vernomen, datter eenige jonghe Nederlanders, Ieroon Vrancks, Aper Fransen, Hans de Maeyer, en Denijs van Wtrecht, t'samen practiseerden, by dese werdt hy geern in gheselschap ghenomen, en leerden t'saem om strijdt, met grooter vrolijckheyt en eendracht, tot dat nae eenighe Maenden den Coningh zijn Hof daer quam houden, doe mosten sy vertrecken, des quam Ketel weder te Parijs" from here:DBNL Johnbod (talk) 14:34, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There's a good tale buried in that Dutch: in my very approximate version (help me out on this) it seems that Ketel betook himself to Paris, France, and then hearing that some young Netherlanders (in the broad sense) were practicing together at Fontainebleau, joined them: the lively lads making merry at Fontainebleau are Hieronymus Francken [brother of Ambrosius Francken, who was at Fontainebleau?], Aper Fransz [would that be Aper Fransz. van der Hoeve (1543-1627) the connoisseur?], Hans de Maeyer, Dionysius [ ] van Utrecht and Ketel, and quickly fell in with their company, with great frolics; but after some months, when the king arrived with his court the lads had to depart, Ketel returning to Paris. Were they dossing in the chateau, or did the village fill up with the overspill? --Wetman (talk) 20:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That was my rough sense of it. Here's Francken, who was indeed a brother. I can't find the others.  No doubt the artists did doss in the chateau.  There was quite a lot of printmaking actually in the locality (mostly earlier than this) so it may have been quite a centre.  Whilst the cat's away....  Johnbod (talk) 22:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Belated comment. I think it was traditionally part of Dutch training to go to Italy to study, and that Fontainebleau, with its Italian artists and works, was a convenient alternative when Italy became inaccessible owing to the imperial presence there and on the Spanish road. So I expect Ketel and his mates were studying. The peripatetic French court was so huge that I daresay they had no choice but to clear out when it descended. qp10qp (talk) 01:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Hatton
Okay boys and girls, here is this week's challenge. Is this picture of Christopher Hatton (right) the same as NPG 2162? There is no inscription on the NPG image, which they call a 17th century copy (but they do suggest a date of 1589). Is the inscription from before cleaning or after? Or are there two versions? Is the inscription date correct? I have seen this picture described as "probably" after Cornelis Ketel c. 1585 (unlikely for Ketel), and as c. 1581. I'm going to keep digging.


 * PS I have added this to the commons: Image:Edward Gill 1578 attr Cornelis Ketel.jpg

- PKM (talk) 05:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems there is only one picture. The version with the inscription is credited to the NPG in the source of our scan (1972) and the same image is in Strong, Gloriana (he dates it c. 1585). - PKM (talk) 07:56, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * FYI, under the assumption that this is identical to NPG 2162, I've marked it superceded by File:Sir Christopher Hatton from NPG (2).jpg, which is a high resolution photo of NPG 2162. If I'm wrong feel free to remove it. Dcoetzee 02:22, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Paris: piecing together the puzzle
James 1897 says Ketel lived with Jean de la Hame, glass-painter to the King, when in Paris. So perhaps his introduction to the French court was a recommendation by one of the Crabeths or their circle? I wonder what James's source for this statement is. In any case, I have added the snippet to the article. - PKM (talk) 18:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Oddly, I cut the van Mander extract above exactly before that bit: "....weder te Parijs, en cocht zijn costen tot s'Conings Glaes-maker, Mr. Ioan de la Hame, daer hy een eyghen Camer hadde, schilderende van Historien: maer also te Parijs van s'Conings weghen een sterck ghebodt was ghedaen, dat alle vreemde, die daer geen twee Iaer hadden ghewoont, en van onder t'ghebiedt des Conings van Spaengien waren, mosten op lijfstraf vertrecken, om datter veel gevluchte uyt Nederlandt waren, t'zy om t'beeldtstormen, Religie, oft derghelijcke, soo dat Ketel ongheraden vondt daer te blijven: des hy met eenen ontgaende de Parijssche moort, is gecomen in Hollandt, met meeninghe de reyse noch eens te vervatten na Vranckrijck oft Italien: doch den tijt om t'onveylich reysen woudt niet lijden, so dat hy ontrent ses Iaren is ghebleven in zijn gheboort-stadt Goude, alwaer veel soete wel singhende Syrenekens hem seer toeghedaen waren, makende hem ten besten eenighe vryagie Liedekens. Doch also door den krijgh daer van schilderen niet te doen viel, vertrock Ao. 1573. nae Enghelandt, en quam te Londen...."

- Which takers him on to London. I think Van M is the source for nearly all the info on CK. If only I actually understood Dutch! Johnbod (talk) 19:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * "...back to Paris [ ] with the King's stained-glassmaker, M. Jean de la Hame, from whom he had his own atelier, painting History subjects; [ ] while at Paris, from the King a strict ordinance was promulgated, that all aliens, that [ ] had lived there two years and were under the rule of the King of Spain, must [ ], and [ ] many were fleeing to the Netherlands, [ ] beeldenstorm, Religion, [ ], so that Ketel [ ] abide there; [ ] he with some emigrants from Paris [ ], came to Holland, with the intention of travelling once more [ ] to France or Italy; [ ] journey would not [ ], so that he [ ] six years remained in his birthplace, Gouda [ ], sweet-singing Sirens [ ] making the best of a few [ ]. [ ] because of the war [ ] not many panel-paintings, he removed in 1573 to England, and came to London..."

Re-edit the above, folks, and fill in the blanks. --Wetman (talk) 20:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow. - PKM (talk) 21:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * beeldenstorm (summer 1566) added. Should have its own article really. Were many fleeing "to" or "from" the Netherlands: "om datter veel gevluchte uyt Nederlandt waren"? Johnbod (talk) 13:49, 5 April 2009 (UTC)