Talk:County Dublin/Archive 1

"County Dublin" vs. "Dublin Region"
I have reverted to the use of County Dublin as this is the name of this article and also the more common name of the region. I have placed Dublin Region in prominance and also a redirect to the article for this variation as it is an uncommon, but none-the-less a valid term. If anyone disagrees I suggest they submitt a formal move request before any radical changes. Djegan 19:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I have reverted the main map back to a map showing the county without any borders (it may take some time to go thru the system) and in addition I have placed a map of the county (Dublin Region) numbering its component city and counties in detail. Theirfore both the traditional (County Dublin) and the reality (Dublin Region) should be presented as clearly as possible. Djegan 22:11, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Request Page Move
In light of the most recent changes, I propose that “County Dublin” be moved to “Dublin Region”: I think that if a “County Dublin” article cannot be maintained without adding further confusion to an already tenuous issue then the article should not exist. The statement “County Dublin, or more correctly the Dublin Region” is watered down to ambiguity – a title is either correct or it isn’t. Describing in detail the cessation of the county, the main text of the article says nothing to qualify why “County” should still be in the title of Dublin at all, and so the numerous references now read as contradictory/confusing. The only justifiable reason why “County” should even be in the title of the page itself is so people can find the article, but if that now means that the article itself has to be altered to reflect the erroneous title then a page move and the set up of necessary re-directs is the sensible alternative. There’s no reason why a “Dublin Region” article couldn’t explain that County Dublin is used as an alternate title, but the accuracy should come first (i.e. article name/banner headings) and the necessary explanations follow. I wouldn’t mind but the entire article is just about how the area is not a county anymore, there is no other meaningful information that would justify keeping the article under its current heading. Also, there is no justification for removing the map divisions, especially if the article is saying “more correctly, the Dublin Region.” Indeed, that is the reality, the map should not conflict with the text.

LocGov 14:10, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Voting
Against proposed move, whilst agree that the article must effectively articulate that County Dublin does not remain as an administrative entity the county is a focus of loyality in culture and sport none-the-less and is more commonly used term within and outside of Ireland. Djegan 19:11, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Against, for the reasons cited by DJ, and also because the "Dublin Region" is a different sort of thing. Wikipedia has articles on all the Irish counties, in their traditional forms. This includes Tipperary, for example. There are good reasons for having these articles, as indicated by DJEgan above.

Dublin Region, however, is what is technically termed a "NUTS 3" region: that is, a level of territorial administrative division common across the EU. In the case of Ireland, the powers of the administrative organs of these regions are very limited, but they are of some further significance because government policy, if I remember correctly, indicates that regional administrative divisions in the public services generally should correspond to the NUTS 3 regions. But the Dublin Region isn't the same sort of thing as County Dublin: it is the same sort of thing as the Border Region, the Mid-East Region, etc. Whether these deserve articles or not is another question (they don't seem to have them at the moment), but the regional government structure, feeble though it is, should certainly be covered on Wikipedia.

However, any article on the Dublin Region (and articles on the other NUTS III regions) should be focussed on their role as administrative divisions of the country with particular functions.

For these reasons, I also disagree with the first sentence of the article's "more correctly, the Dublin Region". It's confusing two different kinds of entity.

However, there is also another a slight problem with the current article. It appears to be dealing with the traditional county rather than the former administrative county, which never included the Corporation area, but the discussion of the abolition of the administrative county doesn't make this clear. Palmiro | Talk 19:59, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I think these are very good points, and highlight problems in the article as it stands. County Dublin and the Dublin Region are not the same thing, despite the fact that the Dublin Region is co-terminous with the traditional County of Dublin -- but not with the old local authority area of County Dublin, which did not include the county borough.  I think the County Dublin article should be primarily about what is generally understood by the term, i.e. the traditional county, one of 32 on the island.  The local government issues can be dealt with within that context, i.e the history of the various local authorities which have administered various parts of the county, and the current situation with 3 county councils and one city council.  We can also deal with non-government aspects of the county, such as sport and culture. --Ryano 12:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Against - we would be jumping ahead of standard usage, wherein "County Dublin" still has a definite meaning. "Dublin Region" is either ambiguous or refers to a different type of entity, as Palmiro notes above. --Ryano 21:30, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Against - i agree with the statements above, espically by that of Ryano. While County Dublin is no longer an administrative unit, having been devolved into the 3 new administrative units that have county level status, County Dublin still refers to a geographical unit, the traditional County Dublin. Second Dublin Region is to ambiguous of a term, that could just as easily, but not wt the current time, refer to areas that outside of the area of County Dublin but maintain strong ties to the area, developing into a metropolitan area. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 20:46, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Against - "County Dublin" is more appropriate. While it has no administrative role, the county still has relevance in many other organisational structures, not least postally, retains its history and has more symbolic meaning to the residents of Fingal, etc. Besides, Dublin Region would be inappropriate as that phrase often includes Counties Wicklow, Kildare and Meath. jlang 17:33, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Against - "County Dublin" should stay. If there was such as thing as the Dublin administrative region then a page could set up listing the areas including in that region and what is function was. Roger g 20:38, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. -- Stefán Ingi 00:06, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I've removed this page's entry from Requested moves due to a lack of consensus on the move. If this changes, feel free to add another request. --Lox (t,c) 16:23, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Towns and Suburbs section
I have noticed that Maynooth is included in the towns and suburbs section. Is this section supposed to be a definitive list of urban areas in Co. Dublin itself, or those in the area as well as the suburban areas outside it? I believe that it should be a list of only the areas within the Dublin region, and so I am removing Maynooth. If anyone wishes to change it to list other suburbs outside Co. Dublin which are considered suburbs feel free to do so. —This unsigned comment was added by Dmitrysimpson (talk • contribs).
 * I agree, considering that the name of the article is County Dublin, it should refer to those arease within County Dublin, considering that Maynooth is in County Kildare it should not be listed on the page. Even if the article refered to the Dublin Region, technicaly speaking, the Dublin Region is still only County Dublin. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:02, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

"the modern counties of Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, Fingal and South Dublin"

They aren't counties!!


 * Um, yes, they are, under Irish law. Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 14:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Needed - a "History" section
It is surprising to me that this article does not have a History section. Why is this?Peter Clarke 08:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Still no History section! When was the county first created? by whom? what changes to its borders? etc... See County Cork for a good example of what should be here. Peter Clarke 22:30, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Traditional counties of Ireland
User RA has recently restored terms about the "traditional" 32 counties of Ireland. This seems to be in pursuance of the irredentist position put forward in his contributions on the WikiProject Ireland discussion Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland/Archive 11. That discussion talked itself into exhaustion. No agreement was reached. It seems that RA thinks it gives him carte blanche to pursue his POV that there are 32 counties in the island of Ireland at this time. Should such claims not feature in the main body of the article? Should they not be removed from the lead? Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:23, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * And its Laurel Lodged POV that there are 29 Counties. Do a quick poll among your family and friends, asking how may counties in Ireland, and see how many answer 29? Here is some info from the citizens informations website: "There are 29 County Councils in Ireland with a total of 753 members. There is at least one Council for each county. Dublin county has 3 Councils including South Dublin County Council, Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and Fingal County Council. Tipperary county has 2 councils; North and South Tipperary. " They clearly distinguish between Counties and County councils. Interesting! Snappy (talk) 17:09, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The "traditional" counties no longer exist officially. They were replaced by administrative counties by legislation that came into effect in 1994. Legilsation that split County Dublin into three. These "administrative" counties also no longer exist now as they were replaced with County Councils and City Councils in 2001. Just because the vast majority share the same boundaries and names as the old counties, doesn't make them one and the same. Just like the creation of baronies in Ireland during the Elizabethan Age - most were based on boundaries and names of local Irish tuaths/kingdoms - but they weren't local Irish tuaths/kingdoms afterwards. "Traditional" counties is an outdated concept held onto by people stuck in the past or unwittingly ignorant of the modern-day situation or hold onto romantic notions. No offence to any. Mabuska (talk) 23:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Please keep to impersonal discussion and be respectful. It is an insupportable position to blatantly shit on other people's views in a personalised way (people stuck in the past or unwittingly ignorant of the modern-day situation or hold onto romantic notions) and then hope to cover it with the meaningless and transparent denial of what one has done by writing no offence to any. That is like writing, "Fuck you: no offense itended." If your arguments are good, you must have the guts to believe they will stand by themselves without resorting to abuse in a vain attempt to shore them up by personal attacks. --O&#39;Dea (talk) 04:30, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * This discussion is turning into a copy of the main one on Wikiproject Ireland, but as has been pointed out there Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy that slavishly follows statute law, we use common usage, and common usage is for County Dublin. Do people say I'm a Fingalian? No they don't, they say I'm a Dubliner. As for County Tipperary, after over 100 years as 2 separate counties (officially), people still refer to it 1 entity of County Tipperary. There were no North Tipperarians or South Tipperarians in Croke Park recently, just a lot of happy people from County Tipperary. Also, can a county exist independently of a county council? Tipperary would seem to suggest so. Common usage! Snappy (talk) 12:23, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * A finer line needs to be drawn on Wikipedia between historical counties that are "common usage" but no longer have any adminstrative purpose or official status and the modern administrative counties that replaced them that are official and do exist in functionality. I think the term "traditional" might have a purpose after all on Wikipedia after argueing against it in the past as it firmly describes what former counties such as Dublin are. Mabuska (talk) 14:48, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It is with deep regret and the greatest reluctance that I find myself in the position of agreeing with User:Mabuska's analysis of the situation. While it's clear that the fig-leaf of "common usage" is pure bunkum, it's also clear that irredentists will never permit it to go away. Not that I ever wanted to dissolve the article entirely, just to consign it to it's proper place - the history section. So I must also agree with User:Mabuska's suggestion - at a minimum create a Category called "Former Counties of Ireland" and another Category called "Modern Counties of Ireland". More radical moves / name changes might also be necessary. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:50, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Dublin County Council dissolved?
I think this article has been edited to make it appear that County Dublin still exists officially with the use of "Dublin County Council" being stated as being dissolved. The link to the act that dissolved it makes no reference to Dublin Councty Council and the quote from the woman also clearly states County Dublin.

Unless a source is provided that states it was the county council only, the word council should be removed as it is misleading and only gives credence to outdated notions that there are still officially (as in the state government) 26-counties in the Republic. Mabuska (talk) 23:32, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with User:Mabuska's assessment and suggestion. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:50, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree with User:Mabuska's assessment and suggestion. Snappy (talk) 12:26, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you elaborate rather than just state you disagree? If there is no sources to back up the misleading statement then it should be removed. Do you have sources that state County Dublin still exists according to the Irish government? Do you have sources that state it was only the County Dublin Council that was? Hmm i wonder should i email the Irish Regions Office and ask what they think, i'm sure they'd agree. Mabuska (talk) 14:41, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Email who you like, it doesn't change common usage of County Dublin. Nobody is disputing the official abolition of the county. As has been stated in the wikiproject ireland thread, others do dispute the current usage of it. Without repeating the other thread, one example is D in car numberplates, 1 D not DN, FL, SD and DLR. Snappy (talk) 15:02, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know why you are talking about common usage as it has no relevance to this discussion. This article erroneously states and refers to "Dublin County Council" as being dissolved instead of "County Dublin" which is the reality. You yourself have just stated that it was county that was officially abolished so how can you disagree with removing the phrase "Dublin County Council" which is misleading?? Mabuska (talk) 15:33, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Common usage also doesn't have any relevance here when we are talking about the official status of the county itself.
 * The idea of emailing the Irish Regions Office has nothing to do with common usage either - just to ask whether it was the county or council that was aboloished, but no need as you yourself have stated it was the county. Mabuska (talk) 15:33, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah! the old vehicle number plate canard. So this is to be used as the yardstick of "common usage" is it? This is the standard that going to uphold the 26 county myth is it? So be it then. But prepare to ratchet up that number to 28 counties as there's a separate listing for Waterford City (W) apart from Waterford County (WT) and a separate listing for Limerick city (L) apart from Limerick county (LK). I think that User:Snappy just shot himself in the foot. Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:01, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * But one of many examples, as already pointed out in the other discussion, there is the GAA, the Revenue, and the Dept. Of Education, an Post and the OSI, and 1 of the local authorities giving its address as County Dublin, how inconvenient for those who just repeat ad nauseam, "County Dublin was abolished by statute, County Dublin was abolished by statute.... ". Also, since you love voting so much, why don't use have a poll and see who agrees with your point of view? You'll probably find me, Joe King, Scolaire, O'Dea, Jnestorius and RA at least against you. But it appears you only start polls which you think you will win. Snappy (talk) 09:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Both the county and the county council were dissolved. So, just title the section "Dissolution" and let the reader decide, from the text? Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:10, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Snappy this issue has nothing to do with common usage. Article states that only "Dublin County Council" was dissolved which is misleading when it was the county itself which you even admitted. How does using the right term when talking about what was dissolved got to do with common usage? This is about accuracy and clarity.


 * @ Bastun - Its not just the section heading but also text in the lede that makes reference that it was the "County Council", without making it clear the county was also dissolved. I've have changed the lede bit to state "County Dublin", there is no need to add detail on its continued usage in other fields as its already stated afterwards in the lede and in the section and is clear enough. Mabuska (talk) 18:39, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * A minimal approach which nobody could find fault with. Fortune favours the bold. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:43, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * An interesting take on the sufficiency or otherwise of "common usage" in deciding questions such as this is to be found in the slightly tangential discussion Talk:Lord Mayor of Dublin on the Lord Mayor vs Cathaoirleach question. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:38, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

What is the point of this unnecessary argument?
It is a weak form of argument to resort to mere belittlement: stick to arguing your case. Common usage is as valid as common law: it exists and is real. It is invalid to use tactics such as putting the term common usage in inverted commas or attempting to characterise it as a fig leaf. It is the same as attempting to redefine the current use of County Dublin as irredentism, calling it old-fashioned, or childishly calling it names like "pure bunkum".

The counties must simply coexist in Wikipedia as they do in reality. There is no need to abolish anything or destroy categories. It is not as if we're stuck for storage space and need to throw things out. The four categories for the counties Dublin, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, Fingal, and South Dublin, must be retained as equally valid, and we must simply stop wrangling over such an unnecessary argument. --O&#39;Dea (talk) 04:53, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Lede: March 2012
Well, User:Laurel Lodged has twice undone my changes to the lede, so I bring it to the talk page.

This is the old lede:

...and this is my version:


 * According to the Placenames Database, Contae Bhaile Átha Cliath is the full name. Contae Átha Cliath is just a shortening.
 * The county isn't part of the Dublin Region, it is the Dublin Region.
 * The county isn't split into three council areas but four: Dublin City, Dún Laoghaire, Fingal and South Dublin.
 * There should be a comma after Dublin in "the city of Dublin which is the capital..."
 * "One of the first of the parts of Ireland" can be simplified as "One of the first parts of Ireland".

Thoughts? ~Asarlaí 09:59, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Reply. Happy to use the full name per Placenames Database. Wouldn't even bother with the short version now.
 * The county is not the Dublin Region. The county plus the city is the Dublin Region. The city was always a county borough or equivalent in its own right and so was not part of the county.
 * The county was abolished and its territory was split between 3 new counties. The city remained intact - it was unaffected by the abolition of the county.
 * There should not be a comma IMHO. Neither version is favoured by MS Word grammar check.
 * Agree with "One of the first parts of Ireland". Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:55, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Accuracy
Since when did Dublin once again become a county? Yes, I know it is one of the tradition 26/32 counties, but the county of Dublin does not legally exist in any form anymore, beyond a few remnant anomalies such as the car registration which is shared by the four city/counties which now constitute what was County Dublin. Yet throughout, this article makes it out that Dublin is still an extant county. The article attempts to make a clarification by saying it is no longer an "administrative county", but it does not at any point justify its very direct claim in the first sentence that it is a county of any kind nowadays -- if the county was legally abolished, what basis is there for saying it still is one? The 26/32 divisions aren't absolute, and would change further if you went back further in history. For sport it may still be considered one, but for postal services, County Dublin has an altogether different meaning, being any part of Dublin that does not have a postcode. Obviously it shouldn't be denied that for many purposes (especially public consciousness) the Dublin, South Dublin, Fingal, and DLR are treated as though they were still a county, but that doesn't change the facts. - 103.232.84.27 (talk) 14:00, 4 October 2014 (UTC)


 * County Dublin is not unusual. Wikipedia had an article on County Tipperary before it was formed into an administrative county this year. It has an article on Montgomeryshire, Leinster, Swabia and Kurdistan. I might say that County Dublin is just the wp:common name for the Dublin Region but in practice the phrase was only used in a single statutory instrument back in 1993. In contrast County Dublin appears quite regularly and not only in postal addresses. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 15:05, 4 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The anon has never come back to respond. I think the factually disputed tag is overstated. The opening statement in this article is no different from County Tyrone and Leinster, or the other examples I listed above. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 18:00, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with the removal of the tag. We really shouldn't have to go through this every time a newbie comes along and discovers that the Wikipedia Irish counties articles are different from their preconceptions. Snappy (talk) 18:09, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Is a county
Why does the lead say "is a county" when it is abolished? North Tipperary and South Tipperary, also abolished, say "Was a county". Why this discrimination? Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:37, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * There was a discussion on this about 5 years ago. Maybe you should start a new one on WT:IE. Snappy (talk) 13:53, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You know rightly. It may no longer be an official administrative unit, but it is still used to this day as one of the 32 traditional counties of Ireland and is used in various different things such as GAA etc. Mabuska (talk) 14:00, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The North Tipp lead says that North Tipp was abolished. The Dublin lead does not say that it was abolished. It only says that certain local authorities were abolished. Not the same thing at all. The county too was abolished. This should be rectified. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * As long as you make it clear its about the official administrative status of it. Mabuska (talk) 22:05, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't understand the distinction that you're making. Please explain. What official status does a county have if not administrative? I can think of no other official status. The distinction is then redundant IMHO. Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:26, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I feel this needs to be addressed, given the slow-paced edit-war over the past couple of months.

A county is not solely an administrative unit, it's a division of the country. This is recognised throughout Wikipedia. In the comparable case of County Tipperary, prior to its reunification in 2014, we described it as "a county" and in present tense. Although Northern Ireland has a different style of local government, none of the counties there do we describe as "former" or in past tense, despite no longer existing for administrative purposes. If need be, "historic county" could be used, as it is used in regards to English counties in a similar state. --Inops (talk) 20:27, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Seeing as those who wish to see the term "County Dublin" expunged altogether love to harp on about how it serves no official or administrative purposes, I think it's worth noting here that during the Covid-19 lockdown phases when movement was restricted to "within your county", all of County Dublin was used, instead of Fingal, DLR and South Dublin. Additionally, just about every committee on re-drawing electoral districts states that they should "avoid breaching county boundaries as far as possible". Dublin's Dail Eireann constituencies are a perfect representation of this, as they do not cross outside of the historic county boundary, even though the boundary serves no administrative function, while at the same time overlapping across the Fingal/South Dublin/Dublin City boundaries, even though those boundaries do serve an administrative function.

Just an FYI for when this debate inevitably flares up again. Jacobfrid (talk) 20:09, 8 November 2020 (UTC)