Talk:Cuisine of the Southern United States

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 September 2019 and 18 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ztluce. Peer reviewers: Bae rowshay11, RyanMcGeo.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:39, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2019 and 18 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mauricio Perez Gonzalez.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:47, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

To Do
I whipped this up because I wanted to edit the page, but wasn't sure where to start. My experience here is mostly as an outsider - while I've lived my whole life in the South, those who cooked for me grew up mostly in California. So I'm not entirely familiar with the Southern pallet. Todo says the To Do list is "Not a place for experimental ideas (these should be discussed first to reach a consensus)", but I wanted to try it anyway. --Golbez 08:28, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)

Livermush?
I've lived in the South my whole life and I have never ever heard of that. Mike H 08:34, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)
 * Welcome to the horror that is North Carolina cuisine. ;) Livermush, chili and slaw on everything, and a vinegary red stuff they pour on shredded pork and call "BBQ". It truly offends my Texas sensibilities. Google seems to agree that it's NC-only. One link says, "2 years in North Carolina, never got a good answer as to what livermush really is. It kind of looks like shoe leather though... really old shoe leather."

The recipe seems to be: 1 fresh hog liver 1 1/2 lbs. fresh fat pork 2 c. cornmeal Red pepper Salt Black pepper Sage

Cook liver and fat pork until tender. Remove from broth the liver only and grind. Add corn meal, peppers, and sage to taste. Add enough of the broth to soften mixture. Cook in saucepan until meal has cooked, stirring constantly. Put in mold. Press down until cold. Slice and serve cold or broil.



Sounds absolutely horrid, doesn't it? ;) I've heard of it mostly being in cube form, and either spread on bread, or heated and eaten that way. --Golbez 09:33, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)


 * I never heard of livermush before today, but Neese's Liver Pudding was one of my favorite sandwich fillings when I was a toddler living in North Carolina. Over forty years later, I can still remember exactly how good it tasted between a couple of slices of white sandwich bread slathered with mayonnaise. Unfortunately, it's not available in here Florida. :`( Metrowestjp (talk) 17:33, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Carolinians use a light vinegar based sauce to emphasize the flavor of the higher quality pork used. Other areas, such as Texas, tend to use a thicker more dominating kethup based sauce to mask the flavor of lower quality meats ;) --Presnell 12:24, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)


 * Them's fightin' words. --Golbez 20:07, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)


 * Not as much as "the horror that is North Carolina cuisine" and "absolutely horrid", n'est-ce pas? Good day, sir. I said good day! --Metrowestjp (talk) 17:33, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

To be sure, livermush is horrible for you (Unless perhaps you make it yourself, and can control what goes in) but in the western part of North Carolina the preference for consumption seems to be sliced and fried crisp. I guess you could eat it cold, but it'd be like eating cold sausage as far as consistency is concerned. I also happen to concur with Golbez' analysis of NC barbecue sauces; too many places here serve something with thet consistency of Texas Pete (and all the charm) and soak the pork with it. Give me a sweet style sauce on the side any day. --MalkavianX 19:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I've lived in central NC my entire life (since 1969) and have never heard of livermush. Apparently it is mostly popular in western NC. Joe P69 (talk) 13:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I've lived in central and eastern NC my entire life. Livermush is very common in eastern NC. It's an acquired taste. As for the Texan, the BBQ you are describing is just one of a few variations found in NC. 98.24.10.0 (talk) 14:25, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Grits
Isn't grits known in the north as hominy? Or am I wrong? Should this be mentioned as a "Southern variant"? Mike H 00:21, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)

Hrm, I am from Florida (central Florida, not the Panhandle, and we still have some Southerners despite what some people believe..) and grits is kinda like a ground up corn product, hominy is whole corn which has been dried and treated with something, I think lye, and rehydrated. Two different things. --Ameireaganach 06:10, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * In the north, grits isn't known, period. Occasionally you can buy instant grits in the grocery story; most northerners wouldn't know what to do with any other kind of grits. There is, as far as I know, no northern equivalent--unless you cound oatmeal, which is similarly yucky-looking breakfast food of the you-had-to-grow-up-on-it variety.
 * You can't get good fresh okra in Ohio, either. I don't know about everywhere else. [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 01:09, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

history
i did some research on some of the histories, but I know it is not as detailed as i want it...i would welcome some help on this section! Kayellen 21:04, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I think this is a very good start. I will help you later this evening. Mike H 21:09, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)

Picture?
Hey y'all we need a really good pic of a good ol fried chicken dinner or something (you know with greens and beans and tea and the whole nine yards. I am no good with images, think we can find someone to fix us up? Kayellen 16:58, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Someone bring a digital camera to Po'Folks! Mike H 17:01, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)


 * MMMMMMMMM Po'Folks....I am jealous, they closed the one in Huntsville! Kayellen 17:29, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * There was one in Pensacola. I don't think there are any in Tampa. There are Bob Evans restaurants here, though. That should be mentioned in the article...the advent of "fast food" Southern cuisine, like Cracker Barrel, Po'Folks, and Bob Evans. Mike H 17:54, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)


 * You read my mind! I was just at lunch thinking about how we needed to add that to the article.  I think alot of northern snowbirds get their first "taste" of southern food from places like those. Kayellen 19:22, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Used to have Po'Folks at least as far west as Texas. The one here closed years ago though. -- Cyrius|&#9998; 21:29, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I'll bring my camera to lunch this week. Maybe I'll get lucky and we'll have something really southern. (I missed the fried chicken and mashed potatoes, though.) [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 01:09, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

food list
Wow things are starting to come together, huh! I was looking at the japanese cuisine article and they had a list of traditional dishes. I didn't like the list before but what about putting one in? I am going to add one in a minute, see what you think. Kayellen 21:02, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Bob Evans
"To a lesser extent, the Bob Evans chain of restaurants have extended across the Midwest and East. Surprisingly enough, the key Southern states of Alabama and Georgia do not have any Bob Evans locations. "

This is probably because Bob Evans is really an Ohio chain (although it actually originated right on the southern border by West Virginia). The food is somewhat reminiscent of "proper" Southern food, lacking some of the things that are most distinctive&mdash;okra, greens, sweet potatoes, sweet tea, black-eyed peas, etc. They may occasionally have some of these things, but they aren't staples. (Although they do have fried chicken, chicken and dumplings, country fried steak...)

I've lived in Ohio for most of my life (but I was raised on Southern food) and it only just now occured to me to think of Bob Evans as Southern. They call it "homestyle". Southern Ohio does have some Southern tendancies, but it's still Ohio. [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 01:24, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Should it be reworded or just taken out? We can afford to take it out. Mike H 01:35, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * I would say just take it out unless there are more people who think it's worth mentioning, in which case it can be added back in. (It may be. I don't know what perceptions are of Bob Evans outside of Ohio.) [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 01:40, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Feel free to take it out...but if you can think of a better one, please add it in its place. I think we need another good example. Mike H 01:53, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

Photo
We need more photos than the Waffle House sign. The new COTW is on Sunday. The article looks pretty good, but we mos def need more pictures. Mike H 05:11, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)


 * We need to slow down on the COTW. We have fewer people than the main COTW; maybe we should move it to every two weeks. --Golbez 16:46, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)


 * I think two weeks is too long. Besides, then it stops being a Collaboration of the Week, doesn't it? :-/ Mike H 07:45, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)


 * COTFortnight? :) --Golbez 16:46, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

Here's a Public Domain image of a woman preparing poke salad. I'm not sure where you would place it, but in my experience wiht featured articles having some sort of historic perspective helps. It would also help to have a picture of someone preparing a dish in additon to a picture of the finished staple dish like fried chicken. -JCarriker 16:58, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)


 * FYI, it's poke salat, not poke salad.

Pie
I'm not a native, but I like pie. What is shoo fly pie? Maurreen 03:32, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * It is an old time pie that is made from Molases. They call it Shoo fly because when they used to set them out to cool someone had to sit with it to keep the flies away because it smelled so sweet.  (maybe you catch more flies with shoo fly pie than with vinegar :P ) Kayellen 14:21, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I editted shoofly pie out of the article. As a person of Pennsylvania Dutch ancestry with a deep interest in that culture, I feel that shoofly pie is out of place listed amung "traditionally southern pies"... Shoofly pie is of Pennsylvania Dutch origin, and nearly all of my Southern friends have never heard of shoofly pie before. PAdutch 05:36, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What about the English?
The page lists the most important influences on Southern cuisine... What about the English? The settlers of the South were English protestants, and up to the Civil War era immigration to the South was very minimal, meaning that the white population is or at least was predominantly Anglo-Saxon. Surely they, as the base population, must have had the largest influence of any group? PAdutch 06:08, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Famous Amos
The article mentions Famous Amos. Is there another Famous Amos aside from the cookie company (which is nationwide, LA-based, and not southern)? -- Kaszeta 21:47, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Famous Amos is also the name of a Southern restaurant chain. Apparently it only exists in northern Florida. I was born and raised on those things and I thought it was bigger than that. Mike H 23:31, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)

New to Wikipedia
Hi there. I'm very new to Wikipedia and am looking for a place I can contribute. Since I've lived all my 50 years in the "Deep South" and have a great interest in the varied cuisines, I think I may be able to contribute to this article. I do question some of the statements in the third paragraph regarding the origins of deep fat frying and would like to research that some more. Also, food preservation methods play a large role in the development of regional Southern cuisines.

Could I have a go at further developing this topic? I'm unsure exactly how to begin and don't want to risk stepping on toes my first try. Thanks for any feedback. NanaLana 20:25, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

=
======

Yeah, I'm new myself so I don't know the proper place to post this. So here goes.

I believe that the article contains two errors: "Canning included green beans (half-runners, snaps) as well as shelly beans (green beans that were more mature and had ripe beans along with the green husks)"

1.) Half-runners are a variety of beans, but snaps are not. 2.) Shelly beans are not "green beans that are more mature and have ripe beans along with the green husks". Also, I have never heard anyone call them "shelly beans". They are called "shellies".

When green beans are harvested, some are shelled, and some are not. The less mature beans are broken ("snapped") into sections a little less than an inch long prior to cooking. They are not shelled.

The shells of the more mature beans are too tough to be palatable, so those beans are shelled (instead of being snapped). That's why they are called "shellies" -- because they are shelled. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.235.37.151 (talk) 05:53, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Move
Okay, I hope someone is watching this page. I propose to move this to Cuisine of the U.S. Southern states, its proper name. The adjective form (Southern) shouldn't come first, and the convention is almost always to have it this way. Objections? --Dmcdevit 01:10, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
 * WikiProject U.S. regions is about to change its suggested article titles for regions. Under the new guidilines Cuisine of the Southern United States, would be more apropriate as the region will be moved to Southern United States under the proposed guidlines. -JCarriker 01:33, May 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh. In fact, I thought that was a better name, but only checked out the region article to see what the convention was, and saw the "US". I agree with Cuisine of the Southern United States. --Dmcdevit 01:43, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Page Move
According to new policy approved by WikiProject U.S. regions this page should be moved to Cuisine of the Southern United States, its main article has already been moved to its new title. Thanks. -JCarriker 12:34, May 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Go ahead. Actually this was discussed before but no one got around to doing the change. --Dmcdevit 23:14, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Soul Food?
I'm not sure I understand the motivations behind removing the blurb about soul food in this latest edit. I suppose I could see how it might offend a sensitive individual, but it definitely goes along with my observations growing up in rural North Carolina. --MalkavianX 19:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I took out one sentence that was misplaced in a paragraph about regional differences. The topic is fully covered in its own subsection. I certainly did not remove anything to avoid offending someone.  However, this article is not of good quality overall, is poorly referenced, and full of opinion. -THB 21:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Boudin
Under section 2.1.1, "Cajun Cuisine", you should mention the 'boudin' sausage. When you cook gumbo you often take a cooked boudin (or 'boudain') and slice it into chunks into the stew, slicing on the bias (this exposes more meat surface area to the rich flavors of the gumbo).

Good hot gumbo, nice chunks of boudin, your Abita Amber on the side and foot-stompin' Zydeco music what more is there to life, n'est-ce pas?

In another Cajun dish called "red-beans-n-rice", sliced boudin is also added and you have a very nice spicy dish with a hearty meat base. I'm getting hungry just thinking about it!

The boudin is another import from New Brunswick's "Acadian" region. It is a sausage that goes back 200 years in the Canadian Maritimes. A variation involves adding cow's blood (like the British "blood pudding"), but that is not the true boudin.

Can anybody add a sentence or two on this? --Atikokan (talk) 05:31, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Correlation to Obesity?
Don't get me wrong I love Southern food and love to deep fry and use real butter (Margarine is blasphemy) but it almost goes without saying such food is generally pretty high in fat and cholesterol and so it might be nice to discuss the health implications of Southern food in a section. The south is usually associated with some of the highest obesity rates in the country so I believe it to relevant. Still we are all going to die sometime might as well enjoy some good food along the way. 24.56.37.14 (talk) 04:30, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced material may be challenged and removed
I have never seen it happen. 84.23.155.84 (talk) 19:51, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

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Both races?
As of the May 30, 2017, the first sentence of the fourth paragraph of the section titled Traditional Southern Dishes reads as follows:
 * "Southern meals, especially among the poor of both races (and historically among slaves), sometimes consist only of vegetables, with a little meat (especially salt pork) used in cooking but with no meat dish served."

There is no previous mention of which two races the author is referring to, nor are there citations to support any of the assertions made in the sentence. If the author is implying that the population of the South consists of only two ethnic groups (presumably "black" and "white") and referring to the poor of both groups (i.e., all groups), then why mention race at all? Instead of saying "among the poor of both races", why not just say "among the poor"? Also, I think it's fair to assume that slaves were, by definition, already included amongst "the poor". I suggest the following edit:
 * "Southern meals, especially among the poor of both races (and historically among slaves), sometimes consist only of vegetables, with a little meat (especially salt pork) used in cooking but with no meat dish served."

Feedback?

Metrowestjp (talk) 16:22, 30 May 2017 (UTC)


 * After almost two months with no feedback, I'm going ahead and making the change. Metrowestjp (talk) 18:04, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Notice the article is tagged that additional sources are needed for verification. An edit based on a string of suppositions is no reason mprovement—citations to WP:RS are required. I've edited to reduce the the unsupported assertions, and will try to do some rewriting, adding citations as necessary. Southern cuisine is inextricably bound up with slavery, yet the article hardly mentions its role. Neonorange (talk) 04:26, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

The edits I made were in the By Region section, I added some dishes that are popular in each of the Southern states. MauricioMauricio Perez Gonzalez (talk) 05:24, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

B-class article?
Cuisine of the Southern United States has a history of collecting WP:OR and bad citations (Google Books snippets and refs that fail to support the text—either ab initio or through textural changes made without checking that the refs are sill adequate). I've taken a quick look at three sections—1.1 Barbecue, 3.1 Louisiana Creole cuisine, and 3.2 Lowcountry cuisine. The barbecue section mentions only one type, mayonaise-based white sauce on smoked chicken in Alabama. The Creole cuisine section is unreffed. The Lowcountry section is OR. I tagged and modified the latter two sections, but the barbecue section is hopelessly sparse. A thorough cleanup is required. I am too hungry to do more tonight. — Neonorange (Phil) 04:56, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Really though...
It's just bad food from other places with mayo slopped over it 94.193.249.13 (talk) 10:46, 15 August 2023 (UTC)