Talk:Culture of Kievan Rus'

Russia or Rus
Much of the article seems to be about Russia and Russians, which contradicts the title of the article. Any attempts to link Russian and Rusian/Ruthenian/Ukrainian cultures sounds provocative and dubious.

First move discussion
I feel this needs structure. But I'm not used to writing about anthropology, so I wouldn't know where to begin. Any suggestions?

Peter Isotalo 18:50, 12 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

don't move. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 20:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Culture of Ancient Rus→Culture of Kievan Rus'—"Ancient" is an incorrect adjective for the medieval society usually called Kievan Rus'
 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~ 


 * Support—this is my request. —Michael Z. 2006-02-28 01:51 Z 
 * Oppose. Only part of the article deals with Kievan Rus. My suggestion is to break down the article into corresponding chapters somehow. KNewman 06:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose. More than half the article treats post-Kievan period. The term "Kievan Rus" is not historic one, either. --Ghirla | talk 07:30, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments


 * Comment: It could be simply Culture of Rus' which avoids disputes over Ukrainian vs. Russian POVs. But for sure the article as written now is incorrect by using the word Russia as a synonym for Rus'.  Kevlar67 06:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Further- Collectively, interested editors have to decide what time period and geographic area are to be covered before a name can be chosen. Right now the article is a about Russia not Rus'.  That's fine, there is nothing wrong with that, but it should be labeled as such, so a seperate article could be written about the Kievan state and/or Halych, etc.Kevlar67 11:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment. If you want to move the article somewhere, let's move it to Culture of Medieval Russia, as the article concentrates on the history of lands (Vladimir, Novgorod, Moscow - not Halych, Chernigov, Pereyaslav) that are now part of Russian Federation. --Ghirla | talk 07:34, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The article, as it stands now, is indeed about medieval Russia. It goes well into the post-Kievan period, doesn't deal with Halych-Volhynia at all, but goes length intro periods (Suzdal and Muscovite) which are post-common, so to speak, to Russia and Ukraine, but rather just Russian. If we add to the Kievan chapter that this period serves as a common base to other cultures, not just the Russian one, Ghirla's Culture of Medieval Russia would be the optimal name. This very same chapter could be than used for other articles. OTOH, the problem for other articles would be their names. "Medieval Ukraine" doesn's sound correct since the name of Ukraine gained usage in post-medieval times only. --Irpen 08:09, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Call it Ruthenia or Western Rus then. --Ghirla | talk 08:12, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps this article should be split into two articles, or renamed Culture of Kievan Rus' and Medieval Russia. This certainly includes history before Russia existed, so "Medieval Russia" is not a suitable title. Ghirla, what do you mean "The term "Kievan Rus" is not historic one, either": it is the term most used by historians. I hope you're not suggesting that Wikipedia should abandon Modern English and switch to thousand-year-old Slavic naming conventions—we've already been through that hoary chestnut a few times. —Michael Z. 2006-02-28 18:07 Z 
 * What you call Kievan Rus was known as zemlya ruskaya within its borders and as Rugia/Rusia/Russia abroad. So I find your statement that the article "certainly includes history before Russia existed" quite annoying. Cheers, Ghirla -трёп- 18:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * What historians call Kievan Rus’—I don't recall coining the term. Rus’kaya was the adjectival form of Rus’.  In Modern English Rus’=Русь, Russia=Россия.  You already know all this: don't you get tired of relying on obsolete nomenclature to uphold the Great Russian national pride?  Are you going to cite the 1911 Britannica next?  —Michael Z. 2006-03-01 02:42 Z 

Guys, this is a side debate to the article rename. Ancient Rus' in English is indeed a misnomer. Russian "Drevnyaya Rus'" when so tranlsated makes it confusing because "ancient" in English usually refers to the times of antiquity. With the Western Rus not being covered in the article, this is indeed about the Culture of Medieval Russia, just with a small modification for the Kievan section to make sure it reflects the fact that Russia has no monopoly to be a descendent from the Kievan state but shares it with other two East Slavic nations.

The fact that the cultures indeed have split makes it rather impossible to have an article that would encompass both post-Kievan Suzdal and post-Kievan Halych. Remember the debate about the Russian architecture? This is a very similar issue. Russian architecture and Russian culture are both sourced to Kievan times and this belong here. Culture of Western Rus' then remains to be written. --Irpen 04:54, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Kievan Rus’ conventionally refers to the collective principalities with their shared history and culture (see the recent naming debate at talk:Kievan Rus'). An article about the "culture of Kievan Rus’" would be incomplete without mentioning the Legacy of Rus’, and discussing the break-up and divergence between the cultures of Halych, and Vladimir/Suzdal and Moscow, particularly the effects of the Mongol invasion and suzerainty.  However, an in-depth culture of Muscovy belongs in its own article.  —Michael Z. 2006-03-01 18:59 Z 

There is no doubt that while there may be a debate on whether Medieval Rus is Russia, there is no debate that Muscovy and Russia are interchangeable for sure. If you are saying that culture of Muscovy article is fine to have, than Culture of medieval Russia is just another name for it. As for "its own article", agreed. And this is this article. With Kievan section slightly rephrased, Suzdal and Moscow is Muscovy. --Irpen 19:38, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * All right, but how do we forestall the cries of "stealing" which will inevitably happen when someone uses the first two-thirds of this article to start "Culture of Kievan Rus’"? —Michael Z. 2006-03-01 21:14 Z 
 * Even though I wrote the article, I wouldn't mind if somebody used the part on Kievan Rus for the Culture of Kievan Rus. Everything we submit is for everybody, anyway. Cut and paste shouldn't be an issue. KNewman 21:47, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Not only it shouldn't be an issue, it cannot be an issue since everything we write here, we submit under GFDL, that is the reuse is allowed but a traceable courtesy aknowledgement is warranted. Whoever strats the Culture of Western Rus' article and pastes the Kievan section from here to there will simply need to supply the paste with an edit summary "copied section X from the article Y into the article Z". It is when the material is pasted unaknowledged, it is "stealing" and a violation even of a liberal GFDL license, like was done initially here by a known problem user, later corrected by subsequent edits. --Irpen 22:00, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Remains the question of how to rename this article. "Ancient Rus" does not fly. —Michael Z. 2006-03-02 00:37 Z 
 * I suggest Culture of medieval Russia with the small modification of the Kievan section. --Irpen 00:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Alternative move discussion
As per above, let's now consider separately from the proposal above a move to the Culture of medieval Russia, provided that the Kievan section is modified to clearly state that while the culture of Kievan Rus belongs to the Russian culture traditions, Kievan Rus was not Russia but rather that Russia (an its culture) is one of its successors. If there are no serious objections, we can start working on the section to modify this accordingly. Since the proposed article location is a red link now, we don't need a formal WP:RM vote. Let's just discuss this. Anyone who cares, is watching this page anyway. Thanks, --Irpen 23:28, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Irpen, what period you consider medieval for Russia? In years please.--Bryndza 14:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Assessment
Hi

I don't know who made the Ukraine Project assessment as a B class article but I have demoted it to C.

It has only 2 references, it is written in pretty bad english and the material is a pretty fluffy and vague in areas.

Let me start with the age ranges. This article is about the Medieval Rus, not the ancient Rus -

Normally in northern europe "ancient" refers to the period up until the time of the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in 476 AD - So anything ancient in archaeological terms is pre 476 AD and usually pre 250 AD.

We then have the European periods.

The three covering 250 AD to 700 AD general and more specific for regions:

Late Antiquity- 280 AD - 700 AD: A general term to cover all of Europe from the mediterranean to the top of Sweden and from Khazakstan to the UK Migration Period - AD 300 to 700: more for central and eastern Europe from North to south. Byzantine or Eastern Roman Empire - 330 AD – 1453 AD: more specific to the Eastern part of Europe.

Middle ages
 * Early Middle Ages - 500 AD - 1000 AD
 * High Middle Ages - 1000 AD - 1300 AD
 * Late Middle Ages - 1300 AD - 1500 AD

Early modern period - 1453 AD to 1789 AD

Go look at these to see hwo things fit around the times of this article. Synoptic table of the principal old world prehistoric cultures and Migration_period

Roman Iron Age (c. AD 1 - 400) Germanic Iron Age (c. AD 400 - 800) Viking Age (c. AD 800 - 1066) Medieval period (1066 - c. 1500) Post-medieval period (c. 1500 - c. 1800)

Do not forget that the issue is not just the name of this article which is out of order with the timeline but also the other articles in the list I have included. You will see that the so called ancient Rus are actually Mediavil Rus.

The "ancient"(if any was this one was :¬)  Rus' Khaganate  started in the 700's and finished in the late 880s The  Kievan Rus'  were around from 880 to about 1280. The  Medieval (late mid and late) Rus  were from 1238 to 1380 (including the Kazan Tartars) once invaded by the Mongols.

And there you have it.

The Kievan Rus had control over the area you are discussing up to 1240s and until the Metropolitan fled to Vladimir from Kiev in 1299. This article is talking about the Medieval Rus, under the Golden Horde and the Byzantine Empire from 1238-1480. The Golden Horde trashed Vladimir in 1238 and moved through what would become Russia, into what would become Ukraine and through into what would become Poland. Moscow did not become the centre of any power until 1299 There should be no mention of Russia in the article unless referencing later events as it did not exist until 1380.

Merge
I'm proposing this article be merged elsewhere on the grounds that the article, in its current form, covers a broad range of states and cultural eras that can't usefully be grouped thus except in the wider context of Russian or European history. Significantly, too, that current grouping of pre-Mongol Kievan Rus' and its successor states with, peculiarly, the post-Mongol Muscovite era is not reflected in the prevailing articles except, as mentioned, within a wider historical context.  Lord Vetinari  14:28, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

BOLD move
This article has remained essentially the same since 2008. The problems are still the same: it's mostly WP:UNSOURCED, contains WP:OR and has an inappropriate title. It essentially throws together random facts about Kievan Rus' and Vladimir-Suzdal. For the record, its Russian-language equivalent ru:Культура Древней Руси (literally "Culture of Old Rus'") defines it as the culture of ru:Киевская Русь (Kievan Rus') twice by linking to the article ru:Киевская Русь twice in the opening sentence, and putting 1240 as its end: Культура Древней Руси — культура Руси в период Древнерусского государства с момента его образования в IX веке (см. также дохристианская культура Древней Руси) до татаро-монгольского нашествия (1237—1240 годы). Importantly: ru:Культура Киевской Руси is a redirect to ru:Культура Древней Руси. In short, everyone on Russian Wikipedia agrees that Old Rus' = Kievan Rus', and that its culture came to an end in 1240. Therefore, all information pertaining to the post-1240 period better fits in the Vladimir-Suzdal article. Because nobody has done anything about it for the past 14 years, I will WP:BOLDly rename it Culture of Kievan Rus', just like its category is called Category:Kievan Rus culture, and move all post-1240 material to Vladimir-Suzdal. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:16, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * For the record, the category is now Category:Culture of Kievan Rus'. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:56, 2 May 2023 (UTC)