Talk:Culture of the Southern United States/Archive 1

Religion
I have removed the statement "The South is highly religious, perhaps more so than any other industrialized culture in the world." Having lived in both North and South for some time this statement seems "highly" unlikely to me and there is no citation for it. First I don't know how you charcaterize "religiousness". The populations of both regions are very engaged in religion. Second, Religion is more varied and therefore less public in the North but no less present. People are accustomed to the kinds of religious performance going on around them and only notice that which is different. So the North notices the religiousness of the South and vice versa. Its a matter of perception of kind, not a matter of real religiousness. The North has a greater variety of religions and is certainly less evangelistic but are people therefore less religious? Percentage of church goers could be mentioned but is not a particularly good measure either as church or synagoge attendence expectations will vary between faiths as will motivations for going. I submit that this is simply a false impression among Northerners deriving from the vociferousness of southern evangelists. DHBoggs (talk) 18:31, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Tobacco section?
Why the tobacco chewing section? Almost no one in the South chews tobacco anymore and it gives a false impression to outsiders. Can it be deleted? Nick 09:08, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't add that section, User:Rjensen did. Perhaps he can explain it. However, the tobacco section is describing the 1860s South, so maybe what we should do is add another paragraph after the current section describing how this cultural trait has changed in recent decades. Thoughts?--Alabamaboy 13:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Under Cuisine, the first paragraph correctly notes the distinctive nature of southern food preferences, and the second paragraph sneaks in the following contradictory (and ludicrous) statement: in reality there is little difference between the traditional diet of Southerners and the diet in other regions of the U.S. This statement was not carried over from the general Southern Cuisine article, and was apparantly inserted by a jealous yank tired of his bage chewing section is explicit).  One characteristic about the South: a high respect for history. Rjensen 04:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * "Women could be seen at the doors of their cabins in their bare feet, in their dirty one-piece cotton garments, their chairs tipped back, smoking pipes made of corn cobs into which were fitted reed stems or goose quills..." Sounds like something out of Lil Abner. This is not the culture of the present-day South. Just because it appears in a history book doesn't mean it belongs in this article. I suggest cutting it.
 * That's how the South was built. The critic has never heard of tobacco--and probably not cotton either. Perhaps the history should be whitewashed before 1970??? Rjensen 05:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not suggesting that anything be white-washed. I'm just asking why a description about tobacco use from a book published in 1917 is included in an article about modern Southern culture. I'm aware of the importance of tobacco (and cotton) to the economy of the South in the past. This article isn't about the economy of the south. Is the critic aware of that?


 * "modern" southern culture??? The key to the South is that it is deeply rooted in history. And yes people still poke fun at Lil Abner (see "Beverly Hillbillies") Rjensen 03:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yep, "modern" culture. If you can find anything in this article that pertains to the south of 1917, show it to me. The tobacco quote is a good one, well written and telling, and maybe it belong in another part of the Wikipedia. But it sticks out like a sore thumb in this article and I'm remvoving it.
 * No--every section of the article has material on pre 1930 South. The rural South was a tobacco-chewing society as late as the 1950s or 1960s, as evidenced by thousands of barns carrying Mail Pouch and other ads. Rjensen 16:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, now you're making an unconfirmed statement about the south of a half-century ago. This really doesn't belong here.
 * This is the talk page. Have you never seen the barns??--many still have huge ads for chewing tobacco. Rjensen 18:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The barns? The Beverly Hillbillies? Have you ever read Wiki's Solipsism article?
 * I did not read the Solipsism article but I did spend the last 10 days driving through the South, observing and talking in depth to about two dozen locals. But the tobacco section now has statistical data as well. Rjensen 02:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Please read the Solipsism article. It pertains to you. I notice you put this stuff in "Tobacco chewing," which is where it belongs. Unless you want to include a section called "Corn squeezins" and one called "Hillbilly incest" in this article, kindly refrain from burdening this article with negative and untrue southern stereotypes, your ten-day information odyssey in the South nothwithstanding.
 * unpleasant customs are not allowed in southern history?

Specifically I cited Center for Disease control data that "In 1992, 30% of all male high school seniors in the southeastern United States were regular users of chewing tobacco or snuff--more than smoked cigarettes," Contrast this with the statement (above) that "Almost no one in the South chews tobacco anymore and it gives a false impression to outsiders.  Can it be deleted?" which was signed by User:NickDupree. Fact is the South was closely identified with tobacco from 1600 until today--(they use far more snuff/chewing tobacco than Northerners, says the survey data.) Rjensen 05:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I stand by my previous statement. I've lived in Alabama my entire life and never once have seen a spitoon.  The section on tobacco is bigger than most, sticks out and creates false impressions.  It doesn't fit. Remove it or trim it down.  NickDupree 06:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * But it's true-- this is a history article and it's a core feature of southern cultural history. False impressions? NickDupree not long ago (in April, see above) claimed "Almost no one in the South chews tobacco anymore" -- apparently unaware that the 30% of high school senior boys are regular users. Sometimes you have to look sharp to see what's happening. An enyclopedia is supposed to tell it like it is. Rjensen 06:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * But it's true! I removed the tobacco stuff. It's plain Yankee-dumb.


 * If people don't respect history they shouldn't tamper with it. Sorry if the truth hurts--chew some tobacco and it won't hurt so much. Chewing/snuff isthe fastest growing segment of tobacco in recent decades and is 3 to 10x more prevalent in South than in North for various age groups. Rjensen 06:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

There are some sterotypes at work here. Tobacco is an important crop in the south, but then so is cotton. The article should be about southern agriculture not just tobacco. Tobacco is also grown in Ohio, Pennsylvania and Connecticut, amoung other places. Further, there is no evidence that I know of that tobacco use generally was any less common in the Northern states historically. I can't begin to tell you how many clay pipe fragments I've dug up on archaeology digs in NY, and there was the huge cigar making industry near York Pennsylvania. Indeed, given the Norths far greater population, most sales and use have historically occured in the Northern states, including, I'm sure, chewing tobacco. Times have changed and the north is even more urbanized than ever and Urbanization and health concerns have drastically reduced usage of chewing tobacco. For the South, as a percentage of the population, tobacco chewing could be higher (if you trust those kinds of poles and anthropologists never trust social poles), but so is the portion of urban population - so what exactly are we measuring? Total numbers of chewers in the country and total numbers of users over long periods of time is a different question. Clearly we are not talking about something that is a special feature of Soutern culture. If its historical accuracy you are after you shouldn't be singling out the south for tobacco use. Anecdotally, I might add that "rubbing" snuff and chewing tobacco is quite common among youths in Western and Central Pennsylvania where I grew up. Last time I checked Pennsylvania was a Northern state.DHBoggs (talk) 18:09, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

proposed merger
From me, 100 percent pro for this merger. --Cyfal (talk) 19:58, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Seriously ya'll, the two articles saying the same things need to be merged NOW! As a long-time mergist, this situation is making me squirm; unless someone else steps up and merges these two soon, I'll do it myself. NickDupree (talk) 22:05, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

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States
While Florida is geographically considered to be part of the American south, culturally Florida is far from southern. Go to south Florida and you will notice that people do not speak with Southern accents but rather have a North Eastern accent and are culturally diverse. Someone should note that South Florida is not part culturally, demographically or linguistically part of the American South.

Nothing is mentioned of the racial tensions that still do exist in the south --69.232.216.135 06:37, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Maryland doesn't belong here and if we're going to list states, then all need mentioning and not a select few. Where is Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, etc.? For the article to have true merit, all need addressing and Maryland should either be discarded altogether, or under another "controversial" type heading. Just my thoughts, being 100% southern and all. ;) MagnoliaSouth (talk) 15:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

How does Maryland "not belong" here? Please expand your mind, lay off the emoticons, and read a history book. Learn about the shared Chesapeake culture of Maryland AND Virginia. Visit the Eastern Shore and give your snooty little 100% Southern wink to a resident while trying to claim they are not Southern. See where that gets you, hon.

"Florida not part of the South" Obviously that guy has never been to Florida. Florida is very Southern; however, Miami is not really Southern due to the influx of Northerners desiring to live on the beach and the illegal immigration from primarily Caribbean. Other than that, you will find Confederate flags in every other city. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.127.1.216 (talk) 18:11, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Whoever wrote this article is absolutely incorrect regarding Oklahoma culture. Oklahoma was settled almost exclusively by southerners before and after the land runs. Most of the towns in Oklahoma are named after deep south towns - mainly Mississippi. There is no such thing as "western or southwestern" culture in the United States. The west is anything west of the 100th meridian. Population in this part of the country is scattered and concentrated in large cities. You have so many different settlement patterns and diverse demographics. The culture of the west is not yet defined. Oklahoma's predominant cultural influence is Southern. Little Dixie is by far part of the Deep South. However, the name actually comes from politics. Southeastern Oklahoma used to be a Dixiecrat stronghold, and almost always voted Democrat. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_OiGM8PFA_-8/TUkcVPJ1WZI/AAAAAAAAAO4/S6cVGu4Wzms/s1600/100th%2BMeridian.gif http://www.unc.edu/news/archives/jun99/reed16.htm http://www.pbs.org/speak/speech/mapping/map.html http://www.okgenweb.org/~okgarvin/veterans/wynnewoodconfederate.html http://statesymbolsusa.org/Oklahoma/OklahomaStateMeal.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kryan74 (talk • contribs) 03:32, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Florida is proudly southern. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.87.102.124 (talk) 18:00, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Morgantown, WV, although nearby, is in no way an exurb of Pittsburgh, PA. At the very least, inclusion of information like this requires citations or some other justification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.191.41.182 (talk) 18:28, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Racism
At least in California, the South is stereotyped (perhaps unfairly) as being largely full of racists. Perhaps the "unique views" of segregation should be expanded on. Atropos 03:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC) (EDIT: Actually, I mean bigotry and prejudice in general Atropos 03:15, 8 July 2006 (UTC))

California the only state that shows Southerners are racist? I have southern heritage and a Californian, and I always thought the southern racist thing was more in the northeast (particularily New York, Rhode Island, Maine, Massachusetts). Also, I don't really see southern stereotyping here, unless you mean around in Hollywood, but most people around Los Angeles weren't even born in California, most of them are from Mexico, or born in a different state. (Zombieduck2 03:17, 30 September 2007 (UTC))

Fantastic
I grew up in Alabama and it may be partly sentiment, but I find this a well-written and accurate article. How do we nominate it to be featured, so that more attention can be drawn to the good points made here? (I hear myself -- I am serious about the article's merit - hometown or no.) --71.82.13.206 01:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much for the compliment!! I grew up in Alabama too, and wrote much of this article in its early days.  Feels good to see it earning kudos!! NickDupree (talk) 21:53, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Film/TV/Music
Surely we can come up with better, more authentic examples of Southern Culture in Film and TV than Gone With the Wind, Sweet Home Alabama and The Dukes of Hazard. If anything these examples perputuate many of the sterotypes that Southerners are subject to. vb — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.246.96.134 (talk) 01:27, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm surprised there is no reference to certain rap music stylings that are unique to the south. "Dirty South" is one that I know of. Ludacris and many other rappers are from Atlanta. Unfortunately, I don't know enough to add a section on this.

Lots of unclear "citation needed"s
In the intro there is: The South hosts a vibrant African American subculture, a sense of rural isolation, a strong regional identity, and more.[citation needed]. It is unclear which of these traits listed needs a citation. Please be more specific. "Rural isolation" may be a stretch, especially compared to, say, North Dakota. If that is the problematic claim, perhaps just delete it?

Another one farther down: most Southern cities and even some smaller towns now offer a wide variety of cuisines of other origins[citation needed] such as Chinese, Italian, French, Middle Eastern,  -- does this really require a citation? It is hard to believe that it is hard to find an Italian or Chinese restaurant in Southern cities, or even "some smaller towns".

There are several other "citations needed" which seem unnecessary -- Southern cuisine is a distinctive trait? Rock and roll began in the South? Perhaps these parts could be reworded to be less absolute and the "citations needed" dropped? With them, the page reads as if someone has a bone to pick. Pfly 09:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Good googly goo! Who in their right minds would think that small towns offering Chinese food needs a citation or that an African American subculture needs one too? I suppose only someone who believes in southern stereotypes. Rock and Roll beginning the the south is another matter. As with any beginning of anything there are disputes as to who really was the first rock and roll star. I have to agree with a citation on that one. If they really need food citations Paula Deen is a great one as well as Justin Wilson (may the dear man rest in peace), Diana Rattray, or any of the southern food columnists such as John Kessler. As for the "variety of cuisines," how about Google Maps where you can Google restaurants in small towns? That is just an outrageous one. MagnoliaSouth (talk) 17:54, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Mississippi
I realize this will be deleted before most anyone is able to read this; but I cannot believe you do not have mississippi on this list! It is the quintessential southern state!! Not only in hisorty (FAULKNER FOR GOD'S SAKE, HE HAS DEFINED THE SOUTH, not to mention hurston), but the present culture of today is most like that of the typical southern society - for better or worse. And to leave out Mississippi is the typical response of people who are uneducated and make assumptions about the south. You want a typical picture of the south? Look at the Gulf Coast with its antebellum homes, you not a REAL picture of the devestation of hurrican katrina; look to the gulf coast, where we recived not even half of the fedral aid of NEW ORLEANS, yet our entire cities were wiped out. Not just one ward due to faulty construction. I'm tired of this toward my home. We deserve better. We produce most of this countrie's writers for God's sake!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.18.117.197 (talk) 17:04, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * By "list" you mean the subsections of the Regional variations section? It is odd that Mississippi doesn't have a subsection there. Want to write one up? Pfly (talk) 03:33, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Maryland
Why was it removed? Does it not share and have cultural influences from this region?


 * I wasn't the one who removed it, but how in the world did Maryland end up on this list to begin with? It has never, ever, been considered a southern state. All states have some cultural influences on others, but that doesn't mean it belongs here. Maryland definitely does not belong here.MagnoliaSouth (talk) 15:54, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, how very wrong you are.

MagnoliaSouth tries way to hard to be "100% Southern". Funny part is, she doesn't even know Southern history.

I DEMAND we be put back on the southern culture page. Ignorance to history and culture of our great state outside the current yankee occupied central counties DOES NOT remove our southern status. I was raised by southern ways and am a proud son of the south in maryland. Saying things like "never been considered part of the south" is ignorance at its best. Look up our state song Maryland my Maryland even recently has failed to be taken away which should show the world our sentiment. Please for the love of God all yall Maryland haters visit other parts of the state then the DC and Baltimore stretch to see the real state. Oh and if we keep defining Maryland by these standards well then I can pick out a whole lot of other southern states that arent southern anymore based on metropolitan areas that are occupied... MarylandSonOfTheSouth —Preceding undated comment added 19:12, 10 April 2012 (UTC).

Food and Obesity
Aside from some areas in the Midwest, the South is probably the heaviest region in the country. (Yes - me too) Shouldn't this be mentioned? ColDickPeters (talk) 18:05, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Who wrote this????
Southern hospitality IS a staple of the south. Visitors from other countries and states often comment about the friendliness of the South, and I live in an urban area. A lifestyle in a rural area, in my experience, does reflect a more laid-back attitude. Time truly seems to slow down when I return to my hometown.

I live in Florida, I am a native Floridian, and I am here to say that the northern part and many parts of the state are strongly southern, culturally. If you haven't visited but a few big towns, you have no room, AT ALL, to speak about the "right" of Floridians to claim to be southern. We are, and we're here to stay. Culture includes more than accent, as well, and the northern Florida accent is very closely related to the southern Georgian and Alabaman accents. Further, people from Orlando to rural parts of southern Florida who are non-Hispanic whites, native to the areas, also speak with a southern accent, namely, the Florida Cracker accent.

While there are "hicks" and "rednecks" in the Deep South, this lifestyle is shunned by many Southerners. Stupid or dirty people are everywhere, and the lack of education is not a hallmark of being southern, nor is it the equivalent of stupidity. Likewise, education does not always eliminate stupidity.

I would like to see a more informed article here, one that isn't so biased in the introduction. Since southerners and those in rural areas elsewhere share many cultural features, it seems really unfair to to pin a lack of hospitality or refinement on southerns. In fact, I'm often surprised by the similarities between northern, southern, and western cultures.
 * There also should be a literature section because most literary sources describe or express the ideals of "southern culture" whether "modern" or historical by any context. Only reason for suggestion is because I happen to be in a Southern Literature class and have found many key elements in certain works that display dirt truthful evidence of cultural details that lack or contradict those in this article. e.g. Flannery O'Conner's Everything That Rises Must Converge,or Faulkner's Unvanquished. Foosa12 (talk)

Stereotype section
"A great number of TV shows, movies and comedic representations often portray Southerners as rednecks, hillbillies, white trash, or simply trash. Other negative treatments depict Southerners as uniformly backward, uneducated, uncouth, wretched, dirty or unhygienic, poor or impoverished, inbred (from family incest and thus genetically inferior byproducts of the same), fanatically religious (as Fundamentalist Christians and Protestant Evangelicals who "hate" Catholics, Jews and members of non-Christian religions), hyper-realistic, racist and xenophobic, sexist and homophobic, ultraconservative and/or extremely patriotic, self confident, constantly romanticizing slavery/the antebellum era and the Civil War, rude/impolite, speaking with heavy drawls/accents, disrespectful, over-authorizing and even tyranus to minors, loud and obnoxious, obese and/or overweight, rabid country music and/or NASCAR fans, and as simpleton "hicks" in "remote" and "isolated" small towns."

Really? I am going to delete this whole section and rewrite it, unless someone can somehow convince me this deserves to stay. Notwithstanding that there area no references, it just seems like an endless rant about what others (allegedly) feel about Southerners.--It's me...Sallicio!$\color{Red} \oplus$ 04:14, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I am from the south, and I go to a secular private school of the elite in the region of northern Alabama. There are more northerners and Asians than there are southerners, and I KNOW these are the views that the north holds. I live around these stereotypes every day of my life. They are really offensive, and every detail in this section is true. They really do view us as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.67.86.98 (talk) 02:31, 19 April 2012 (UTC) Im from northern kentucky im a an ancestor of confederate soldier if you called some of my neighbors midwestern they would laugh an give you history lesson. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.32.61.145 (talk) 15:20, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Arkansas
24.144.4.6 (talk) 20:12, 10 June 2010 (UTC) Somehow Arkansas has been left out of the list of cultural differences between the states. Arkansas bred blues music in the Delta, is the number one rice and catfish grower, produces cotton, and has wine vineyards in the Northwest. The state capitol, Little Rock, is the center of politics and a growing art, music, and film scene. Several political leaders, actors, and musicians have come from Arkansas. Famous people from Arkansas: President Bill Clinton, Johnny Cash, Billy Bob Thornton, Mary Steenburgen, Kris Allen, John Grisham, Tracy Lawrence, Al Green, Glen Campbell, Conway Twitty, Jerry Van Dyke, Bear Bryant, 24.144.4.6 (talk) 20:12, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Map as “original research”
File:BibleBelt.png appears to be at best “original synthesis”, and at worst more fundamental “original research”, extrapolating in an original manner from the map cited in its notes. The Bible Belt isn't simply defined in terms of the presence of Baptists, but more generally in terms of the significance of socially conservative evangelical Protestantism. — SlamDiego  &#8592;T 04:00, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

A long section needs to be added for innovations added to society
Such as cardiology, aeronomics, rocket science, overnight package delivery, and so forth. Also, southern colleges and universities such as Vanderbilt, Duke, Georgia Tech, UNC, UVA, Wake Forest, etc should be added. More detail with food and music should be added. Perhaps a list of famous southerners as well including politicians such as George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, both George Bush's, Bill Clinton, etc. I can think of a lot more to add but this is a start. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.87.102.124 (talk) 18:08, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

And don't ever the spaceports and arsenals, like in Kennedy in Cape Canaveral, Redstone in Huntsville and Houston, as well as the numerous scientists from the rest of the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.67.86.98 (talk) 02:02, 27 May 2012 (UTC)