Talk:Dar es Salaam/Archive 1

Hard to find info on Dar es Salaam
why is it so hard to find information about this city? Revolución 19:42, 1 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't say it is that hard to find information on Dar es Salaam. --Semkae 16:42, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Why Arabic?
Why do we have an arabic version of the name there in the opening sentence? This is an English wikipedia after all... Sbwoodside 08:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I assume it is because Dar es Salaam is an Arabic phrase. The equivalent is not unusual on wikipedia. I believe that language translations like that do (occasionally) enhance the article &mdash; however, I can understand that some people may find Arabic characters disturbing (Arabic numerals are apearantly fine) &mdash; but if it is an issue, I promise to find the correct wikiclause to quench your worries. --Ezeu 15:52, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I found the source: Naming conventions (Arabic) a proposal for policy. I have opened a discussion on the talk page ... I'm not keen on this idea. It's not so much that I find arabic disturbing, but I think that the vast majority of english readers of this article cannot read arabic. So, to introduce arabic character right there as the second word in the article is going to put people off big time. Is it relevant or useful information? I don't think so, but I'm open to being convinced. Sbwoodside 19:27, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I added the transliteration to run alongside the Arabic. However, I think the point is that the city's official name is in Swahili, not Arabic. The name might be derived quite directly from Arabic, but it isn't truly Arabic. This can be seen by comparing the Swahili with the Arabic: something that would be impossible if we didn't have the Arabic. However, I find the argument against prominent use of native names alongside English customary versions a little disturbing. I feel that encyclopaedia articles should not appeal to the lowest common denominator (it doesn't matter if most people cannot read Arabic, but it is useful information, and it does come with a transliteration). I find it almost xenophobic that we might consider banning the official name of a place from its article on the grounds that most English-speakers cannot read it. --Gareth Hughes 22:17, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Apparently you've never heard of loan words. "Vis-a-vis" for example, is French, regardless of whether the term is also used in English. There are a lot of Arabic loans in Kiswahili, and that doesn't make them less Arabic. Dar es Salaam is Arabic. Get over it. --76.217.92.82 20:31, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Translation of "dar es salaam"
Dar es Salaam is bastardized Arabic, I guess; I've always been told it stands for "Haven/Place of Peace." It's not Swahili, whatever the case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.247.46.5 (talk) 23:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I did some research on the subject of the origin of Dar Es Salaam. The book "Dar Es Salaam" by The Tanzania Society (TNR Tanzania Notes and Records 71 from 1970) states that:
 * "Dar es Salaam is popularly believed to mean "the Harbour (or Haven) of Peace" - from the Persian-Arabic Bandar-ul-Salaam (Swahili Bandari ya Salama) ... However, this derivation of the name can be challenged on both linguistic and historical grounds. In the first place, it is not likely that Bandar, with the accent on the first syllable would have been contracted into Dar. Moreover, contemporary records of the City's early years - the late 1860s - rendered the name simply as Dar Salaam, meaning "The House (or Abode) of Peace (or Salvation). This more likely derivation was supported by a visitor in the 1880s, who noted how the name had already been misconstrued, and who also indicated that the Swahili form Dari Salama was that originally chosen by the City's founder, Seyyid Majid, Sulta of Zanzibar. Whether this was entirely correct, whether the name was meant to refer to the Sultan's palace specifically or to the new town in general, and how closely Majid was really likening Dar es Salaam to Paradise, we shall probably never know. Nor is the matter worth pursuing further."
 * The text references earlier TNR publications 3 and 19, from 1937 and 1945 respectively. Since I don't speak the language, I can't be a judge of whether it is useful to include the Arabic version of the name. Someone versed in 19th century Arabic would be better suited for that. Also, adding that alternate theory of the origin of the name could be worth doing - does someone have a source that refutes this one?
 * As an aside, the Haven or Harbour of Peace translation seems to by far the dominant translation in my experience - there's even a school called Haven of Peace in northern Dar Es Salaam. CarlosCoppola 12:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Carlos quotes one of the few sources that translate the name correctly. Haven/harbour is a very stubborn nonsense which is perpetuated nowadays also by this wikipedia-article. As it has been spread so far there should be a mention of the popular error. The Arabic script can be transliterated in different ways (one or two "a"s in the last syllable; hyphens just for convenience to show the three parts of the expression, they do not really matter), like dar-as-salam, dar-al-salam, dar-ul-salaam, dar-us-salam or with colloquial pronunciation as in our case dar-es-salaam ("l" before "s" is pronounced as "s" but written "l" - thus the different transscriptions) . The name thus is by no means unique; دار السلام is a well known expression in islamic culture. In legal thought is has been used as another expression for "dar-al-islam" (house of Islam) as opposed to "dar-al-harb" (house of war - the nonislamic countries which have no treaties with Muslims); its use is also political meaning that an islamic area should be a peaceful place - thus the official name of Brunei being   "Brunei Darusalam". Somewhere I saw that it has also been used to denote "paradise" (like in the above quote) but I cannot confirm this. --Kipala 12:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * "House of peace" sounds like the most plausible translation, but I changed the article to mention the two translations on equal footing, citing Carlos's reference, for lack of any more decisive reference. --Kai Carver (talk) 09:34, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Photos
The gallery of photos would be better off on a Commons page, and we can link to it with a Commons template box. &mdash; Matt Crypto 10:45, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

"Formerly Mzizima"
Is it proper to say Dar Es Salaam was formerly Mzizima? As I understand, Dar Es Salaam just enveloped and incorporated the Mzizima village, just as it later did Msasani. Does anyone have a source the Mzizima claim? — Preceding unsigned comment added by CarlosCoppola (talk • contribs) 13:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Info deleted from Dar es Salaam (region)
Just wanted to note that I deleted 2 paragraphs on the region's page that were exclusively about the city. I added them to the talk page there if anyone wants to check them out and see if there's anything to add here. --Galaxiaad 01:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Culture section & NPOV
The Culture section fails to give any insight as to why such conflicting views of the town are mentioned. It also fails to give sources to comfort the views given in that section. This thus render the section POV-pushing and IMO doesn't reflect reality. Lincher 20:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It is true that the section is unreferenced, but I don't see any POV pushing. Which are the "conflicting views"? The Wikipedia policy WP:NPOV requires, by the way, that if there are (significant) conflicting views, then all are mentioned. Can't the tag simply be replaced by unreferenced-section? --Lambiam Talk  16:15, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Population
I'm just back from Dar, and I was told - there - that the population is actually 4 million. Any other offers on the current population of the city? raining girl 10:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * 4 million is such a lie. What are the references? This city right now is more than 6 million Nlivataye (talk) 17:42, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * This reference which is in the article gives a population of 4.4 million according to the 2012 census. Since that is the latest reliable source we have, I think that we should go with that. It is true that Dar es Salaam is growing, and that it is not unlikely that the figure is somewhere near 5-6 million in 2020. But, we would need a reliable source to add an updated population figure. Sjö (talk) 18:30, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I also want to point out that today 199.96.244.60 replaced what appears to be wildly inflated population figures that were not supported by the references. Sjö (talk) 19:07, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

More info about IMF-Violence assertion
I was surprised to find this sentence "However, with the intervention of the IMF and World Bank, Dar es Salaam became a center of city crime, gangs, and violence, which lead to the rise of hip hop music." and am curious for more information about the connection between IMF involvement and violence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.82.12.66 (talk) 23:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Famous/notable people?
One way the page could be expanded is by adding a section for famous or notable people from Dar es Salaam. I know that Hasheem Thabeet, the star center for the UConn men's basketball team, is from there. I'm sure there are several others from a city with over 2 million people. StanHater (talk) 02:41, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Mwalimu Nyerere was not born in Dar es Salaam, so I am removing his name from the list. --Syed Kazim 13:33, 18 June 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Syed Kazim (talk • contribs)

Capital Moved to Dodoma?
The article on Tanzania says the capital moved from Dar es Salaam in 1996, the article on Dar es Salaam says 1974, the article on Dodoma says plans were made in 1973 and the the National Assembly moved in 1996. Seems to me we need one consistent answer. Perhaps: "Plans were made in the early 1970s to move the capital inland to Dodoma. These plans were approved in 1974, the National Assembly did not move until 1996 and many government offices remain in the old capital." DavisGL (talk) 07:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Suburbs
Suburbs of Dar es Salaam are contained within their own article. They should be merged into this article. I am creating a new section entitled suburbs, which will be expanded with the merged content of the suburb orphans. --John Kronenwetter (talk) 16:49, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

File:Dar es Salaam before dusk.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Dar es Salaam before dusk.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on April 26, 2011. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2011-04-26. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks!  howcheng  {chat} 22:20, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Removed reference to US embassy bombing
Removed the following sentence

One of the deadly 1998 U.S. embassy bombings occurred in Dar es Salaam; the other was in Nairobi, Kenya.

From the History section of the article because the US embassy bombings had nothing to do with the development of Dar es Salaam as a city, which is what the introductory history section should be about

It might be appropriate to include it in the globalization section, but not "as is" but with more a thorough rewrite — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.215.231.151 (talk) 19:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Culture ; newspapers
Just Wiki-ing Dar while writing up a story for Slashdot which I picked up over breakfast from "The Citizen" (http://thecitizen.co.tz/). I know there is at least one other "local" English language newspaper, "The Guardian" (http://www.ippmedia.com/). I don't know what the Swahili language ones are ; that will need more local knowledge than mine (I'm just passing through on work).

I'm also not sure that "Culture" is the appropriate section, but I can't think of a better.

Aidan Karley (talk) 07:09, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Main image
Please do not change the main image Dar es Salaam before dusk.jpg which has been selected as a Featured Picture, without discussion --Muhammad (talk) 15:23, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Request For Comments Infobox Image
What image of the city should be placed in the infobox between the two? --Muhammad (talk) 16:46, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Option 1

 * Support Better quality, resolution and composition. Its Featured Picture is testament to that --Muhammad (talk) 17:01, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Much better image overall, though both do at least a "reasonable" job of representing the subject matter. If option 2 is selected, I strongly suggest cropping out the left edge to remove the visible engine inlet. siafu (talk) 17:09, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Much better quality and angle. Overly skewed birds-eye views, like option 2, don't give a very good idea to us humans what a place is like. That said, it would be nice to have a featured quality photo that includes both skyline and ocean. First Light (talk) 17:37, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak Support - One important thing when trying to illustrate something as varied as a city is a variety of photographs, to try and capture the full range of the city, and this is a good picture. It's also, however, one that doesn't shrink down to infobox size as gracefully as one might hope, and it might actually be better to go with option 2, if it lets this image be shown larger elsewhere in the article. More below. Adam Cuerden (talk) 19:04, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Naturally through its being a featured picture, however I do like the bird's eye view showing the whole expanse of the city in Option 2.  Uhlan  talk  22:24, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - between the two extant images. I also would personally probably prefer a "birds-eye view" of the area, as it can give a better idea of the overall layout of the area on the ground than a few which seems to effectively emphasize the taller buildings, but, between the two, the former is the better picture and on that basis the better choice. John Carter (talk) 18:18, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 * support - As others have said this is the higher quality image. Option two does give a better overview of what the city is like so should certainly be included elsewhere in the article. Dlv999 (talk) 17:23, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * support - Both the images are good but as per Siafu please crop the image because engine inlet is spoiling the view. Otherwise both the images are good and it is extremely tough to decide. I am supporting this one as it has more more quality.--Vyom25 (talk) 17:55, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Support This seems more in line with what I expect for a city article. Option 2 probably has its place, but for the infobox, I'd prefer the skyline. --BDD (talk) 18:37, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Option 2
Support: I actually prefer this picture because it is more panoramic, shows the very important coastline feature and includes green zones and possible suburban areas along with the denser downtown area. I do not follow this page but was asked to comment on this discussion even though I have never participated in any articles relating to this area as far as I can recall. Veriss (talk) 07:26, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It has been nearly two weeks and I was the only one to support option two. I will support option one according to consensus and suggest that the RfC be concluded on the 14th day. Veriss (talk) 04:59, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Veriss (talk) 08:22, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Other discussion
Per my vote above, I'd like to expand a bit: This article is a bit stuffed with images, many of which aren't really that useful, and would be better cut. A variety of images showing all aspects of the city would be far better than random images. I'd suggest that both suggested lead images should get prominent positions in the article, and would actually prefer if Option 2 was the lead if it meant that Option 1 could be shown a bit bigger. But, before we look into that, the following need cut:


 * File:Africa_location_map.svg: Wikipedia has an unfortunate love for context-free maps, which show cities hovering in space, without country borders, nor any other cities. This fails at the basic premise of a map: to show the context of a location. However, this one is particularly useless, as we've already shown where Dar es Salaam is within Tanzania in the infobox; there's no need for a giant context-free map of Africa as well.
 * File:Saint Joseph's Metropolitan Cathedral Dar es Salaa,.jpg - there's a much better image that could replace this. In face, I'm going to replace it, so I'll strike this one.
 * File:DarEsSalaam-SamoraMachelAvenue.jpg Some trees, the back of a few people's heads, some cars, and a relatively generic building. I'm not seeing what this adds to the article.
 * File:Ferries across Kivukoni Channel.JPG File does not exist.
 * File:Dar_es_salaam_National_Stadium.jpg This is a really bad image. I guess it at least serves a purpose, though.


 * Who made the previous post? Veriss (talk) 08:29, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm tending to think User:Adam Cuerden, as he is the editor who made the comment "More below" in his !vote. John Carter (talk) 18:18, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Muslim violence against Christians
http://www.persecution.org/2013/05/20/anti-christian-hostilities-escalating-in-tanzania/?ref=dsky — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.215.79.157 (talk) 19:28, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Timeline of Dar es Salaam
What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content. Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 15:37, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Region vs City
Can someone point out the differences between the City of Dar es Salaam and the Region of Dar es Salaam? It looks for me that these two are congruently. --BJBH (talk) 16:10, 5 November 2016 (UTC)


 * According to this: " The Regional boundaries are the same as Dar es Salaam City Council. ... The Districts boundaries are also the same as Municipal Councils". Ruslik_ Zero 20:25, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Kudos! So should we merge the articles about the Region and the City? I would suggest to do a section "Region" in the new "main" article Dar es Salaam (then former city article, where we are disgussing now). --BJBH (talk) 20:21, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * According to this: "The Regional boundaries are the same as those of Dar es Salaam City Council. Dar es salaam Region, formaly Mzizima, is Tanzania’s largest and richest city and an important economic centre. Dar es  Salaam  city  is  the  Dar  es  Salaam  Region  administrative  province,  and  consists of four local government Authorities or Three administrative districts." If there are no objections, I would merge this articles as suggested. --BJBH (talk) 18:01, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok you can try. Ruslik_ Zero 20:43, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * @Ruslik0, I tried :D I proposed the deletion of Dar es Salaam Region. --BJBH (talk) 10:04, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Deleting this was a bad move, which broke the infrastructure and left behind a lot of red links. I've done a proper merge, which took some work. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:42, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Birth certifcte
I am jasim from pakistan my grand father born in tanzania daresalam i want birth cerficte Qasim dar (talk) 18:50, 2 March 2018 (UTC)


 * This is Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia. Unfortunately, we cannot help you obtain a birth certificate. Rivertorch FIREWATER  18:39, 4 April 2018 (UTC)