Talk:Darmstadt School

Proposed move
This is not a standard English name as far as I can tell, and there are a lot of English links to Darmstädter Ferienkursen, also the name of the WP:de article; it took a lot of seaching to even find this page.

btw, I think Taruskin and critics would fit better into the Darmstadt School article. Sparafucil 21:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I heartily agree, on both counts, and you are so right about it being hard to find the page. Whenever I have needed to link to it from another article (and this has happened dozens of times, since I have written quite a few articles on Darmstadt-connected composers), I have been forced to go to an article where I know it is already linked (such as Karlheinz Stockhausen), in order to find the proper article title. However, let us make sure that we use the correct form: the plural of Kurs(us) is Kurse, not Kursen, as can be seen in the lead sentence of the article as it presently stands. (BTW, this is one reason why finding the article is presently so difficult. There is a redirect from the ungrammatical "Darmstädter Ferienkursen", but not from the correct spelling.) Though the formal title is "Internationale Ferienkurse für Neue Musik, Darmstadt", it is more commonly referred to (as in the German Wikipedia article) "Darmstädter Ferienkurse".--Jerome Kohl 22:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Good catch, thanks! I wonder if there should be a redirct from Ferienkürse too? ;-P Sparafucil 21:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Article on Siegfried Palm needed
I miss an English page for composer Siegfried Palm (mentioned here and many other pages). I think there should be a translation of the extensive German page or at least a short version in English with a link to the original. I would be willing to work on it, how? (btw Kürse is sweet, close to Küsse ... kisses)--Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, you just start the article Siegfried Palm as best as you can. The link to the German and other language Wikipedias is achieved by placing the interwiki links  at the bottom of the article, similar to de:Siegfried Palm. All the best, Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:29, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the advice. I will start on my userpage - later.--Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:12, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Please help yourself to my very rough start here if anything's useful. Sparafucil (talk) 00:56, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Unverified lecturers
by Jerome Kohl removed a list of ten names as lecturers because they are not mentioned in Thomas and Schlüter (2001). At least three of them, Brian Ferneyhough, Nicolas Hodges, and Liza Lim appear in a long list of tutors for 2014 at http://www.internationales-musikinstitut.de/en/summer-course/tutors.html (although Lim has since canceled, but her own entry mentions she lectured there in 1998 and 2010). I suspect the others might have worked there in the past, but the site doesn't keep many archival records. New Music at Darmstadt: Nono, Stockhausen, Cage, and Boulez (2013) by Martin Iddon might have some further information. Hans Heinz Stuckenschmidt's name in particular rings familiar in connection with Darmstadt, and several of his articles related to the Darmstädter Ferienkurse are cited in Iddon's book. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:59, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Michael, for the potential sources. Removal of the list of names, however, was not merely because Thomas and Schlüter do not mention them, but because they had been challenged for nearly four years without anyone coming to their rescue. Should they now be restored, I wonder also whether the cluttered, seemingly endless stream of names would be better presented in list format.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:50, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree that the long list of lecturers is a bit overwhelming in this short article, but then, that's what Darmstadt is about. A new list format has recently become available which puts entries in a variable number of balanced columns, depending on the list's length and screen width, div col, which can produce this:


 * Theodor W. Adorno
 * Milton Babbitt
 * Luciano Berio
 * Pierre Boulez
 * John Cage
 * de
 * Morton Feldman
 * Wolfgang Fortner
 * Severino Gazzelloni
 * Alois Hába
 * Hans Werner Henze
 * Hermann Heiss
 * Lejaren Hiller
 * Rudolf Kolisch
 * Aloys Kontarsky
 * Ernst Krenek
 * René Leibowitz
 * György Ligeti
 * Bruno Maderna
 * Olivier Messiaen
 * Luigi Nono
 * Siegfried Palm
 * Henri Pousseur
 * Heinz Rehfuss
 * Wolfgang Rihm
 * Hermann Scherchen
 * Eduard Steuermann
 * Karlheinz Stockhausen
 * David Tudor
 * Edgard Varèse
 * de
 * Iannis Xenakis


 * or without bullets:

Theodor W. Adorno

Milton Babbitt

Luciano Berio

Pierre Boulez

John Cage

de

Morton Feldman

Wolfgang Fortner

Severino Gazzelloni

Alois Hába

Hans Werner Henze

Hermann Heiss

Lejaren Hiller

Rudolf Kolisch

Aloys Kontarsky

Ernst Krenek

René Leibowitz

György Ligeti

Bruno Maderna

Olivier Messiaen

Luigi Nono

Siegfried Palm

Henri Pousseur

Heinz Rehfuss

Wolfgang Rihm

Hermann Scherchen

Eduard Steuermann

Karlheinz Stockhausen

David Tudor

Edgard Varèse

de

Iannis Xenakis


 * Does that look better? --Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Darmstadt is all about being overwhelming? Perhaps this has become the case, though I hardly think it was the original intention. This new template is interesting, and I agree that either version is tidier than crowding all the names into a normal paragraph. Better still, however, would be a narrative about Darmstadt that places each of the most important lecturers in the context of the evolving character of the courses.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:25, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Cage and Brown as part of the Darmstadt School?
I previously removed Cage and Earle Brown from the list of composers part of the Darmstadt School. My change was reverted with the argument that both of them attended the Darmstadt School. This point is true, but they were not part of the aesthetic movement known as the "Darmstadt School" and the subject of the article. The lead even states this: "The term does not refer to an educational institution."

To quote the article: Coined by Luigi Nono in his 1958 lecture "Die Entwicklung der Reihentechnik",[2][3]), Darmstadt School describes the uncompromisingly serial music written by composers such as Pierre Boulez, Bruno Maderna, Karlheinz Stockhausen (the three composers Nono specifically names in his lecture, along with himself)

Neither Cage nor Brown ever wrote "uncompromisingly serial music" and any semblance to serial techniques they might have used, were not as part of this loose collective of composers pursuing a specific aesthetic ideal.

The hidden note that was there before was basically original research, ie, finding serial techniques in some of Cage's music does not mean he was part of the Darmstadt School. In fact, at the time the Darmstadt School existed, Cage and Brown were part of the so-called New York School of music. These schools, while both being involved in the avant-garde, were working in very different directions. The Darmstadt School embraced total serialism while the NY School was all about chance, indeterminacy, and things like graphic notation -- all things that were anathematic to the Darmstadt School.

The Darmstadt School as a summer school did embrace all types of modernist/avant-garde classical music of the time and was trying to be cutting edge in this regard. However, this doesn't mean that everyone who attended as a teacher/lecturer was part of the Darmstadt School movement. These are two separate things which is why we have two different articles for them.

I suspect that some of the other composers in that list don't belong either, but I haven't taken the time to investigate them further. Cage and Brown just stood out as being the most wrong.

Now, having Cage in the list of teachers at the Darmstadt School is fine, as it is accurate, but I don't think it even belongs in this article as it is not relevant to the subject of the article (the aesthetic movement) and there already exists an article about the summer music school/festival at Darmstädter Ferienkurse which is where that list does belong. SQGibbon (talk) 22:47, 21 June 2021 (UTC)