Talk:Darrick E. Antell

in the media
The folllowing is not encyclopedic content, but perhaps the refs can be used to generate encyclopedic content

Antell has been interviewed  about the rising number of chin implant surgeries in both men and women and was featured in an interview with Ernie Anastos on Fox5 about the increased rate of plastic surgery among men. Antell’s publications and broadcast by major national media, such as Good Morning America. As one of the spokespersons for the American Society of Plastic Surgeons, he has been interviewed on  TV talk shows including Good Morning America, The Today Show, The Early Show, and Jay Leno. He is frequently quoted in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal and other major news outlets.

-- Jytdog (talk) 16:51, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

needs better sourcing
This needs independent sourcing from the literature. This is terrible:

Much of Antell’s research has focused on the factors that contribute  to how people  age. He is known for having operated on identical siblings (twins), thus eliminating genetic differences between patients studied. His published studies include work on studying different face lift techniques as well as evaluating the effects of lifestyle choices on aging in identical twins . His group was able to see how environmental factors such as smoking, sun exposure and stress affect the aging process. The study, published in the Annals of Plastic Surgery in December 1999,  confirmed that lifestyle choices demonstrated a more profound effect on physical aging than genetics alone.
 * Research and Twins Studies

In the summer of 2016,. Antell published another twin study comparing long-term results of Full and Short-Scar Face-Lift techniques. Quoted as a “landmark study” by Rod Rohrich, Editor in Chief of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery, this study   shows that the full-scar face-lift technique yields significantly better long-term results, specifically in the neck area.

-- Jytdog (talk) 17:05, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

COI tag
I've added a conflict of interest tag to this article. This signifies to readers that the article has been extensively edited by someone with a conflict of interest, and is likely to have bias, in the form of missing negative content, overemphasis on "positives", non-neutral language (all of which are violations of the WP:NPOV content policy), and is likely to have unsourced or poorly sourced content, in violation of the WP:VERIFY content policy. It is likely that the content promotes the subject of the article, in violation of the WP:PROMO policy. Independent editors need to review the article and correct it, and then may remove the tag. If you do so, please leave a note here. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 01:14, 29 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I've made edits to the page to remove all "non-encyclopedic / non-neutral" comments. JessicaKhani  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jessicakhani (talk • contribs) 20:43, 15 March 2018 (UTC)


 * @Jessicakhani: Based on your edits—in particular, your donation of a photo that is in this article—you have a conflict of interest yourself and should not be removing the COI tag. —C.Fred (talk) 20:48, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

The photo is available online JessicaKhani — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jessicakhani (talk • contribs) 20:52, 15 March 2018 (UTC)


 * @JessicaKhani: This has nothing to do with where the information is available. This has everything to do with you holding yourself out as the photographer of the picture. Are you saying that you did not take the picture, so we should delete the picture as a copyright violation, since you scraped it off the web? —C.Fred (talk) 21:03, 15 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Jessicakhani, Thanks for coming to the talk page! Would you please reply here, already?  We can talk about content after we establish the "ground rules" and get you oriented to how Wikipedia works.  Please reply there. This does not have to be combative.   Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 21:06, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Some proposed changes
Darrick E. Antell is a board certified plastic surgeon and reconstructive surgeon who has maintained a private practice in Manhattan, New York for over 20 years. In addition to operating his Park Avenue practice, Antell is a diplomate of the American Board of Plastic Surgery, an official spokesperson for the American Society of Plastic Surgeons, and an academic. He served as an Assistant Clinical Professor of Surgery at Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons for over 20 years. He has been a clinical faculty member and guest lecturer at American University of Antigua since 2010, and an Assistant Clinical Professor of Surgery at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai since 2014.

Antell’s longitudinal study on twins gained him much recognition in the scientific community. He was the first in his field to document the way facial aging can be affected by environmental factors like sun, stress, and smoking in the article, "How Environment and Lifestyle Choices Influence the Aging Process" in the medical journal, Annals of Plastic Surgery. Antell’s work was featured in the Smithsonian Institution’s National Museum of Natural History in the Human Genome’s Exhibit.

Jessicakhani (talk) 15:12, 19 March 2018 (UTC)JessicaKhani


 * Just a quick note. The supposedly independent newspaper/magazine sources here are all reproduced on Antell's website. We are solidly in a bubble with this set of refs, which are as handpicked to be hosted by Antell as the rest of the content on his website.  The other new sources are just self-supplied bios on various organizations with which he is associated.  This is not how we write WP articles.  To clear the tag, somebody has to go out and find sources themselves and summarize what they say.  Jytdog (talk) 21:10, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I strongly agree with Jyt's statement, and would add that these sources usually carry disclaimers explaining the limits to using what is provided there in any authoritative sense (i.e., "ASPS does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the content, or that any errors in the content will be corrected. The site, the service and the content are provided on an "as-is" and "as-available" basis.") I would take that to mean that editors should be skeptical when using these sites as references. Many of the ones in the edit request above carry such disclaimers, including Dr. Antell's own website:
 * Mt Sinai disclaimer
 * ASPS.org disclaimer
 * University of Toledo Alumni Magazine disclaimer
 * Dr Antell disclaimer, incorrectly labeled in the edit request as "Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons"
 * These sites are ok for things like dates and positions held/licensing but with other claims they are not so helpful ("Antell’s longitudinal study on twins gained him much recognition in the scientific community."). But even then, using them for dates should not get to the point where we're listing an entire job history, per WP:NOTYELLOWPAGES, WP:NOTCV.
 *      Spintendo       23:27, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Jytdog Spintendo These contributions Antell's made to the educational community are relevant, and the academic roles he's filled are all current positions he holds with the exception of Columbia University, which I corrected for the typo above, which was a major part of his career. It doesn't seem fair to call it "an entire job history". Further, I've modeled his profile based on a number of other plastic surgeons with approved profiles who have far more extensive history than what I've listed. To keep us on track, it seems as though it is within wikipedia's guidelines to use the sources I've used for dates, just not major claims about his work. I used a CTPost.com article as a citation for the claim "his longitudinal study on twins gained him much recognition int he scientific community", and what I did here was summarize this claim based on this article. There are a number of publications, not self supplied by Antell, related to his research as well, so if it needs additional support I can find some, but the claim holds truth. I was only hoping to get some information, general as it may be, up about Antell. There is a lot that could be said about his research, but that's a project on its own. Please let me know if any other changes should be made at this time or if the blurb about Antell is okay to be published. Thank you for your help. Jessicakhani (talk) 13:17, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Jessicakhani
 * Jytdog Spintendo Please reply to my last message. Thank you Jessicakhani (talk) 13:49, 22 March 2018 (UTC)JessicaKhani
 * I don't know why Spintendo didn't reply, but I didn't reply because you just wrote your opinion. Wikipedia is based on independent, reliable sources.  Both of us discussed the problem with sources. As I wrote on your talk page, what this article needs is for someone to do the work of going and finding independent sources and summarizing what they say. Jytdog (talk) 18:02, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
 * talk the proposed changes include information found on other wikipedia approved living plastic surgeon profiles. All approved plastic surgeon profiles include a list of affiliations, awards / recognition, and other accomplishments. Spintendo above says the sources provided may be used to supply dates and positions held, but shouldn't be used to support claims. The claim about the recognition received summarized based on the CTpost article, and several other articles that publicize Antell's research. Jessicakhani (talk) 18:24, 22 March 2018 (UTC)JessicaKhani

WP:OSE is not an argument for inclusion. References which are outside of the subject's sphere should be provided for these claims. If the desired claims are for dates, please resubmit the dates you'd like included and where in the article the dates should be inserted to. To reopen the request, please change the ans=yes parameter to ans=no Regards,      Spintendo       01:31, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ Dates added as requested, per my earlier posts shown above: "These sites" (the subject's own websites) "are ok for things like dates and positions held/licensing". and "References which are outside of the subject's sphere should be provided for these claims" (for non-date and/or positions held-type info). "If the desired claims are for dates, please resubmit the dates you'd like included and where in the article the dates should be inserted to."       Spintendo       15:34, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Some proposed changes
Darrick E. Antell is a board certified plastic surgeon and reconstructive surgeon who has maintained a private practice in Manhattan, New York for over 20 years. Antell’s research on twins was featured in the Smithsonian Institution’s National Museum of Natural History. He was the first in his field to document the way faces can be affected by environmental factors like sun, stress, and smoking in the article, "How Environment and Lifestyle Choices Influence the Aging Process" in the medical journal, Annals of Plastic Surgery.

Positions held
 * Antell is a diplomat of the American Board of Plastic Surgery and an official spokesperson for the [American Society of Plastic Surgeons].


 * Antell served as an assistant professor at Columbia University Medical School for over 20 years.

Jessicakhani (talk) 15:30, 11 April 2018 (UTC)JessicaKhani
 * Antell has been a clinical faculty member and guest lecturer at American University of Antigua since 2010.
 * Antell has been the Assistant Clinical Professor of Surgery at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai since 2014.

Reply 11-APR-2018
Looking at the article and the proposal I can see that the two versions are identical except for 2 omitted sentences:
 * 1) Antell is a diplomat of the American Board of Plastic Surgery and an official spokesperson for the [American Society of Plastic Surgeons].
 * 2) Antell served as an assistant professor at Columbia University Medical School for over 20 years.

The first sentence contains two claim statements: that the doctor is a diplomat of the ABofPS; and that the doctor is an "official spokesperson for the ASPS". The provided reference for these claims in the first sentence is an 11 year old excerpt from ABC News. Whereas the assertion that the doctor is a diplomat has likely not changed -- as most members are afforded "diplomat" status -- the assertion of the "official spokesperson" position is likely to have changed after 11 years. This claim ought to involve updated references from the ASPS itself. The second sentence is unreferenced has not been substantiated yet from the CT Post. A search for this reference is underway. Regards, 0.82em 16:07, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Update: The CT Post reference given for the second sentence above I was originally correct when I said that the second sentence was unreferenced. The CT Post was given for another claim which was already in the article (and in any event does not substantiate the Columbia claim) shown here does not substantiate the claim made in the sentence, that the doctor served as assistant professor at Columbia University Medical School for over 20 years. 0.82em 16:22, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Edit request 03-JUL-2018 (out of chronological order)

 * Hi! I've linked the article "Twin Study" to Dr. Antell's page. I would like the orphan tag removed if you believe acceptable. Please let me know.  Jessicakhani (talk) 14:34, 28 June 2018 (UTC)JessicaKhani


 * The claim in that article was just placed there, meaning the community hasn't had a chance to say whether the claim should remain.
 * You failed to give the page number of the reference you provided.
 * For future reference, the DOI of the article you cited is 10.1097/00000637-199912000-00001. Giving information such as the article's DOI and the page number where the information resides is much more helpful to the community.
 * Please make all new requests at the bottom of the page under a new level 2 heading.  spintendo   19:55, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

revisions
Dr. Darrick E. Antell is a board certified plastic surgeon and reconstructive surgeon who has maintained a private practice in Manhattan, New York for over 20 years. Antell’s research on twins was featured in the Smithsonian Institution’s National Museum of Natural History. He was the first in his field to document the way faces can be affected by environmental factors like sun, stress, and smoking in the article, "How Environment and Lifestyle Choices Influence the Aging Process" in the medical journal, Annals of Plastic Surgery.

Positions held
 * Antell served as an assistant professor at Columbia University Medical School for over 20 years.

Spintendo, The Columbia reference has been updated, but for some reason does not appear. The reference should be the Independence Today article. Neither does the reference I added for Dr. Antell as a spokesperson for the ASPS, I am not sure why? Thank you for your comments. Jessicakhani (talk) 13:14, 12 April 2018 (UTC)JessicaKhani
 * Antell has been a clinical faculty member and guest lecturer at American University of Antigua since 2010.
 * Antell has been the Assistant Clinical Professor of Surgery at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai since 2014.


 * Do you have the link for the article? 0.82em 17:28, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok the ref names used were not all lowercase as they should be, that's why they weren't appearing. 0.82em 17:39, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
 * okay thank you, I updated the reference with the link and corrected the ASPS reference so it now appears. Jessicakhani (talk) 17:51, 12 April 2018 (UTC)JessicaKhani
 * In looking at those two references, the claim about being an official spokesperson for the ASPS should be referenced by that organization, such as a press release from them or a link showing Dr Antell as their official spokesperson to a webpage operated by the ASPS. Likewise as to the claim regarding Columbia, there should be a reference coming from that University saying that he worked there. The amount of time claimed working there (20 years) should be reflected in the significance of the references used. No offense to Independence Today, but I feel that an interview in what I can only assume is a minor publication is not sufficient enough of a reference for making a claim that Dr. Antell was a professor at Columbia for a substantial amount of time. 0.82em 18:03, 12 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I've deleted the position as a spokesperson at ASPS as I cannot find another reference. I've included a link to an acknowledgment of Dr. Antell's position from Columbia University, however cannot find anything on the website that confirms the length of his professorship. I wonder if both references I've included will suffice? Please let me know if this is acceptable. Additionally, in the first paragraph "Antell’s research on twins is featured in the Smithsonian Institution", the word is has been changed to was as his research is no longer featured there. Jessicakhani (talk) 19:16, 12 April 2018 (UTC)Jessicakhani

✅ The In Vivo reference (shown above as #5 in the references) is acceptable, as it was published by Columbia University and is hosted on their web portal. I've added this claim: "Served as assistant clinical professor of surgery at Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons." in accordance with the reference, which stated: "Darrick E. Antell, assistant clinical professor of surgery at P&S." 0.82em 20:13, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

New Edits - July 12, 2018
Hi again, I was able to find the page numbers associated with the Annals of Plastic Surgery article, and updated the Twin's study page. Please take down the "orphan" warning if you feel now is an appropriate time. Jessicakhani (talk)

Reply 12-JUL-2018

 * 1) I improved on what you placed in the Twin study article, adding the DOI and URL to the reference. I also added the article's co-author, Ms. Taczanowski – whom you surprisingly forgot to mention. I also reworded the passage entirely to align with MOS:QUOTE, MOS:DOCTOR and WP:PAGENUM.
 * 2) The Orphan maintenance template has been removed. The Twin study page will be monitored, and if consensus removes the mention, then the orphan template will return.
 * Regards,  spintendo   19:56, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

08-NOV-2018
Would love to get some editors to contribute to this page. I want to make sure I am going about this the right way. I think we need to change the wikiproject from medicine to biography. Please let me know if you are interesting in help add some information and what the best way is to get this done. Jessicakhani (talk) 17:32, 8 November 2018 (UTC)Jessicakhani (talk)