Talk:Date palm

Untitled
Hi

Are fresh dates as high in fibre as say prunes or figs. Are there any dietry negatives to eating fresh dates as part of a low fat diet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.74.6.254 (talk • contribs) 15:00, 10 October 2004 No, I do not believe there is. In fact, it will help "clean" you out as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.75.34.66 (talk • contribs) 20:03, 24 March 2005 It doesnt look like they are as high, it only has a very thin skin which could be counted as fibre, the rest is mostly jelly like digestible carbohydrates, must more dense then dried figs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.100.165.143 (talk • contribs) 12:16, 25 January 2012

Page title
It is obviously pointless to have this page at Date, but I think it would be better placed at Date Palm than Date (fruit). Anyone object to a move? - MPF 18:24, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think we should leave it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.75.34.66 (talk • contribs) 20:03, 24 March 2005

Saddam Hussein and Dates
Could someone who is knowlegable on the subject of dates make their way to the following website: http://www.thewatcherfiles.com/dates.html

After having read this could they better qualify the statements made about dates in the following article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_Saddam_Hussein --Gantlord 14:45, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[Note: I have been raising dates in the USA for 30+ years. It looks as though this palm is cultivated since there do not appear to be thorns on the fronds. It is possible that this one bunch was not pollinated. Palms send out their flowers over a period of time. If the pollination was too late for the first bunch (or to early for the last bunch) a whole bunch may not have been pollinated. This is not uncommon and would not be surprising in a war torn year. Unpollinated dates would still be yellow in Dec. They may not ever ripen or at best will turn color in Feb. or Mar. but never be good to eat. Since they are not palatable, they are often left on the palm and cleaned at the following year's dethorning when fruit stalks are removed. Any way, they will still be yellow in Dec. added 4/20/06 by SoftMentor@aol.com] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.200.116.7 (talk • contribs) 09:28, 21 April 2006

Requested move 1

 * The following discussion is closed. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Date Palm → Date palm – Capitalization

Voting

 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~ 


 * Support: per naming standards. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:01, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose: per naming standards; caps are permitted, and widely used, for species names. See extensive discussions at WP:TOL talk archives. - MPF 09:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Discussion
Why is there no page on dates themselves, you don't search for apple and get apple tree at the top O.o 172.189.174.96 (talk) 16:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Dates are not fruit
This is a common misconception, this article on dates needs to be changed. dates are in fact the flower of the date palm. http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=32749 Some Information — Preceding unsigned comment added by Olieviya (talk • contribs) 14:22, 1 July 2006


 * Botanically, the date is a fruit. I see nothing wrong with the article (nor do I consider everything2.com to be a very reliable source of information to quote from) - MPF 16:16, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, i just used that from lack of another on-line location and time constraints to finding one. Any encyclopedia of mediocre or higher repute found in any good library should provide ample evidence on the subject. The date is actually the flower, botanically or otherwise I do believe it is so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Olieviya (talk • contribs) 19:39, 1 July 2006


 * No, it has flowers (small and inconspicuous) like any other flowering plant, which then mature into the fruit that you eat. Just the same as any other flower matures into fruit. - MPF 22:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, just wanted to add that dates are most definitely fruits, or more specifically berries (drupes), having a single seed or pit. Additionally, both the male and female tree have flowers, though only the female flowers will form fruit. I have not altered the main page, but here is a link supporting the fact that they are berries. http://postharvest.ucdavis.edu/files/71533.pdf 60.234.229.163 (talk) 01:54, 18 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Dates are fruits, those hard stuff inside them are the seed, it has not so exotic flowers thons of them on a small stalk, which gets grows with the fruits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.100.165.143 (talk • contribs) 12:16, 25 January 2012

Nurtition Chart from USDA using British spellings???
Why is the nutrition chart sourcing the USDA and referencing recomended calories in an American diet using British spellings? It makes it look like a fake. Jon 20:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I understood it was wiki policy that all spellings are standard english. Willow177 20:11, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Standard English relative to the article's subject, yes. Articles about American subjects should be written in American English; articles about British subjects should be written in British English. In this case, a chart referencing American sources should probably be written in American English.--chris.lawson 03:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

What makes Dates British- or American for that matter? I've removed the word "Commonly" from the sentence "Pitted Dates are commonly referred to as Stoned Dates" and substituted "Also". Here in the USA I have never heard of Stoned Dates. If someone feels strongly that Stoned takes precidence over Pitted, they are welcome ro revert the change.Saxophobia (talk) 01:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I would love to eat some "stoned" dates... Hashish would be fully sick here :) 122.200.166.68 (talk) 11:04, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Glazing Dates
Would anyone volunteer to add some information about the process of glazing dates? I believe you may find some in one of the FAO books in the external links section. Thanks, Sdudah 05:59, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

http://www.fao.org/docrep/t0681E/t0681e05.htm does that help? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuxcrafter (talk • contribs) 13:04, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Gallery
I removed this gallery: ==Dates from Tunisia==

Galleries are more appropriate at commons, then linked at the bottom. cygnis insignis 14:39, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Moved from correct botanical name to common name
Why has this page been moved from Phoenix dactylifera. Surely it would be best practice for date Palm to redirect to Phoenix dactylifera rather than the other way round. It just looks like another dumming down of Wikipedia as useful encyclopedia....--GazMan7 (talk) 18:12, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

There is some strange nonsense in this article under the heading Dates; I wonder whether it has been planted as some sort of private joke. There is no such thing as a genus called "huxetrinus diastilecus". The date palm is of the genus Phoenix. And it is not in the same "family" as the "common cherry" (what is a common cherry? there are many common cherries). A "family" has a precise taxonomic meaning. 16 Fe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.96.21.193 (talk) 13:51, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I removed the edit by 69.113.80.162 here, restoring the following:
 * The fruit is a drupe known as a date.
 * A third ip has made a contribution as well; it was left intact, but my restoration has fouled it a bit. cygnis insignis 15:38, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Native range?
There seems to be a contradiction between the introductory paragraph, which states that the native range of the date palm is probably north Africa, and the body of the article which states it originated around the Persian Gulf. Which is it? 209.86.226.36 (talk) 02:46, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Khajur
Khajur is the Urdu / Hindi word for date, it is NOT a variety of date. The term 'khajur' is used for any date irrespective of the variety. Your article incorrectly lists Khajur as a variety found in Pakistan/India. Pakistan has many different varieties like Halawi, Aseel, Begum Jhangi, Karbalai, Mazafati and so on. The word Khajur is synonymous with date as it is used in Urdu for all dates including those from Iran, the middle east and morocco. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.73.4.233 (talk) 10:09, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I noticed this as well. As a native Urdu speaker, "khajur" just means date. It is not a variety of date and should be removed. --24.87.60.41 (talk) 07:34, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Colour of Fruit
In the section Dates we are told: "...when unripe, range from bright red to bright yellow in colour, depending on variety." However, in the picture, we have some obviously unripe green fruit, but in another picture we have some (ripe) red fruit. What gives? 122.200.166.68 (talk) 11:11, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Range and Cultivation details and maps
No information is given on the kinds of climates / environments where date palms can 1. be grown 2. successfully fruit. Although yes, most people would immediately associate them with warm dry regions, there is obviously more to it than that (minimum temperatures, average temperatures, water requirements, soil requirements, sunlight requirements).

The range map that shows date production per hectare appears to have some inaccurate data. For example, it appears to indicate that some parts of northeast China (even southern Manchuria) grow date palms. I find that impossible to believe as those regions regularly experience severe, prolonged winter freezes. Similar doubts about some other areas such as northern interior Spain (although the winter climate is not as severe there).

Could there be a confusion with "Trebizond dates" the fruit of Elaeagnus orientalis / Elaeagnus angustifolia orientalis, a deciduous tree / shrub which is much more cold-hardy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.241.220.61 (talk • contribs) 21:22, 31 January 2011

Deir El Balah Translation
"Deir" is "Convent" and not "Village", so "Deir El Balah" should not be translated as: "Village of Dates", it should be "Convent of Dates" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cedro2010 (talk • contribs) 06:25, 8 August 2011

Date in Turkey?
Well as an ornamental plant maybe in southern coast. But Ankara with its steppe cold winters... The map is absurd at best. Anatolian climate is just not for date even in its warmest town Cizre, you just cant grow it. I do not understand how Azerbaijani provinces of Iran has that much yield either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.100.165.143 (talk) 12:11, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I concur it is plainly misleading if not ignorant, Ankara with down to -30 deg C is much less hospitable to date palms than for example London. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.180.22.140 (talk) 16:32, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Move from Phoenix dactylifera to Date (fruit)
This article should be moved too Date (fruit) instead of its scientific name. This is outlined in the principles enunciated at WP:FLORA. Thanks. — Nearly Headless Nick   {C}  13:43, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The WP:COMMONNAME of the fruit referred to by this article is "date", and I will make the move in 24 hours, if there are no objections. — Nearly Headless Nick   {C}  08:10, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I disagree moving it to Date (fruit) but if it was to be moved Date palm would be the better title since it isn't just about the fruit. Bidgee (talk) 08:31, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. Thanks. — Nearly Headless Nick   {C}  09:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * If we look closely, most of the article is about the date fruit, not the palm tree, except the lead section. Similar articles exist, such as Apple (where Apple tree redirects to Apple). What do you think? — Nearly Headless Nick   {C}  09:53, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia articles are about the whole plants not only the fruits.--Taranet (talk) 23:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

This is one of the most viewed articles about a plant (see [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Plants/Popular pages), and perhaps THE most viewed article titled by scientific name where an unambiguous common name is available for a title. WP:FLORA certainly would support a common name title. I'd support a move to Date palm (unfortunately, date is ambiguous).Plantdrew (talk) 15:57, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Grown from cuttings ?
It is claimed that date palms are grown from cuttings. Palm trees only have one growth locus and can't be grown from cuttings.Eregli bob (talk) 12:12, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 2

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 18:07, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Phoenix dactylifera → Date palm – Page was moved from a more common name to a scientific name with naming conventions being cited as the rationale. This rule normally applies only to plants that don't have a common name, which this tree does: Date palm. Raykyogrou0 ( Talk ) 15:40, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment This article is predominantly about dates (the fruit) and as such should be moved to Date (fruit).  Once moved, a  new article should be created for the taxon Phoenix dactylifera and the current article adjusted. This would follow the the example of grape (fruit) and Vitis vinifera (taxon) as outlined at WP:FLORA.--Melburnian (talk) 01:21, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * RE: If it ever gets expanded, separate articles can be made for Date (fruit) and Date palm. For now, there isn't enough content to warrant two separate articles. Also, "date palm" is the common name, therefore it should be renamed as such.  Raykyogrou0  ( Talk ) 09:29, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support per WP:COMMONNAMES Red Slash 03:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This discussion was not advertised appropriately, e.g. at WT:PLANTS, so few people participated. I strongly object to the move being made without adequate input. Peter coxhead (talk) 13:30, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * This requested move was listed by AAlertBot at WikiProject Plants. Editors interested in the latest discussions regarding articles supported by a particular project should always look there, as there is no requirement or expectation that a comment be left on the project's talk page. Ibadibam (talk) 17:49, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The relevant guideline is FLORA, which actually mentions WP:PLANTS. You may not expect to notify the plants Wikiproject when discussing changing the title of a plant article, but I do. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:19, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, an announcement about this economically important plant should warrant more of a cooperative attitude to editing than that. Some readers of WP:plants (and there are apparently a lot of such people) might not want to look at the questions about moving one scientific name to another, such as the Picris echioides → Helminthotheca echioides move that just completed, but might have strongly held opinions about scientific versus common names! Also, 26th July to 2 August is a short interval to expect people to have seen WikiProject Plants. This was definitely not advertised sufficiently. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 21:24, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to comment on the merits of the move request, as I didn't participate in it and I have no opinion about it. You're certainly welcome to initiate a new move request so that the discussion can be reopened. All I'm trying to say is that WP:PLANTS was sufficiently notified — posting to project talk pages is not part of the WP:RM/CM procedure, and while I agree that it's courteous to do so, it's not something we can count on happening every time. I can only encourage you to keep up with your project's article alerts so you don't miss a discussion like this again. You can also add WikiProject Plants/Article alerts to your watchlist if that's more convenient. Ibadibam (talk) 21:47, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

History of Dates
The way information is cited, i.e. (Author, Date), in the two first paragraphs of this section is wrong. I'm not qualified to change it myself since I'm no dates expert, but you should check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources for more details. Baldurmen (talk) 19:38, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The didn't include a full citation even then, but I was able to locate the book and add a full citation. The  also didn't add a full citation, and I've been unable to identify the intended source. I have tagged the citation for improvement, for the time being. Ibadibam (talk) 20:20, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Date output map
Is the date output map correct? The location indicated for date output in the U.S. (the red dot) is the northeast. This can't be right. Shouldn't it be in the southwest where most dates are grown due to desert land? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.151.233 (talk) 00:34, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not how it looks when I enlarge the map. It shows a scattering of green spots in the extreme south of California, and no red dot anywhere. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 18:30, 13 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I see the same thing as 98.119.151.233 in File:2005dattes.png included in the 'Production' section. There's a red dot in the vicinity of Buffalo, New York. Are you referring to File:DateYield.png listed in the 'Dates' section instead? Mind  matrix  19:46, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes indeed, I was looking at that other map. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 21:04, 13 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Correct? Of course it is not, there is not a single date palm in Central Anatolia, even in the southern shores fruiting date trees dont last as long to ripe them( cannot reproduce, not could be sold). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.180.22.140 (talk) 16:35, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

According to the image File:DateYield.png (referred to by Sminthopsis84) there are no links to it from any English Wikipedia page. It uses data that was obtained in 2010 so it's outdated (no pun intended). Additionally, the placing and color of the dots on the map are difficult to see even when enlarged to the maximum, and would be impossible to interpret as a thumbnail in the article.

The image used in the article uses data that was produced in 2012, so is similarly old. Its color and resolution might make it easier to see and interpret, but, as mentioned above, the placing of dots is at best misleading - at least for the US and Turkey.

The FAO website (http://www.fao.org/faostat/en/#data/QC) has statistics for 2017 currently available. I can't get to incorporate that at present, but it should be useful to either replace the existing map or supplement it.Twistlethrop (talk) 20:43, 6 February 2019 (UTC)


 * I submit the map is misleading enough such that no map would be preferable. Looking for dissenting opinions.  --Bridgecross (talk) 14:14, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Cultivars versus types
There is a list of cultivars, and a list of Saudi "types", with limited overlap. Perhaps these should be merged. Lavateraguy (talk) 15:26, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:36, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

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Wood durability contradiction
Someone pointed out if the wood is not durable how is used in the construction of bridges and other structures requiring durability. Tagged the section for followup.-- &#9790;Loriendrew&#9789;  &#9743;(ring-ring)  21:19, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

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Add a new area of Symbolism for the Palm tree
It seems dating since pre-Roman empire times through to the Renaissance, Palm Trees have symbolised immortality because the trees were thought to live forever. (This is the reason the ancient biblical authors used the palm on Palm Sunday as a double pun on the Roman tradition of a Triumph, and also on the rebirth and eternal life of Jesus which follows a few chapters later. The meaning of being waved at by palm tree branches then later, in memory of this biblical story, to symbolise "rebirth" rather than "eternal life".) It is true to say during the Renaissance the Palm tree symbolised both Rebirth and Eternal Life. I bring to your attention three sources, and therefore I believe we should add an additional use of the palm tree in symbolism to reflect it's meaning in Eternal Life and Rebirth: 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Sunday contains this sentence: In ancient Egyptian religion, the palm was carried in funeral processions and represented eternal life. The palm branch later was used as a symbol of Christian martyrs and their spiritual victory or triumph over death. 2) Fernando Lazi 2004 is correctly cited as a source for this in the "Palm Sunday" Wikipedia article but when you read this source you notice the emphasis on rebirth and eternal life. That emphasis does not appear in the Wikipedia "Palm Sunday" or "Date palm" articles. The source text reads: "When Jesus went to Jerusalem for the Passover, he was greeted by a crowd waving palm branches, a gesture proper to the Hebrew tradition. The date palm is a special tree in the eyes of the Orientals. Everything about it is useful. Its duration and height far surpass human measure, so much so that in Mesopotamia it was regarded as a sacred tree, for it evokes the ideas of immortality, rebirth, victory, and asceticism, and is a metaphor for what is elevated and sublime, a metaphor of victory. In Egypt palm branches were a symbol of unending life and were varied in funeral processions. The palm tree combined the symbolism of victory with that of resurrection..." 3) A History of Britain 2 1603-1776, by Simon Schama. A specific example of this symbolism in use, in reference 'Eikon Basilike' a Renaissance frontispiece engraving William Marshal this 2012 Schama book reads "Charles had taken enormous pains to present himself like his grandmother Mary as a martyr for the church... in this case the Church of England. The 'Eikon Basilike' was designed as the church's spiritual the gospel according to St Charles, in pious resurrection of the monarchy. Complicated, but to contemporaries intelligible, Christian symbolism dominated the frontispiece designed by William Marshal, engraved by Wenceslas horror and obviously in tune with the King's interpretation of his posterity. It's themes were... palm trees thought never to die, and thus the ancient emblems of the resurrection continue to grow even under the weight of royal virtue...." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fegor (talk • contribs) 20:36, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Phoenix dactylifera - the relevance of Phoenix in the name
The saying "From the ashes rises the Phoenix", likely originates from burning palm fronds to produce ashes that were used to build the pyramids? There is now good evidence that the limestone blocks used in their early construction including those at Giza were not carved but cast from re-amalgamated limestone. Ashes from burnt palm fronds have been suggested as a key ingredient in forming geopolymer re-amalgamated limestone. Hence the saying "From the ashes rises the Phoenix"

See the work by Joseph Davidovits of the Geopolymer Institute https://www.geopolymer.org/

Tusk Bilasimo (talk) 13:33, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Diseases and pests section
What is the point of the second paragraph, about "madjool" (sic) dates? It doesn't mention anything about diseases and pests, does it belong in that section? Nerfer (talk) 19:06, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Regarding the anecdote about the moving of the medjool palms to Indio, CA. I believe the date garden the cultivars were transferred to was actually Oasis Date Gardens in Thermal, CA. The Oasis Date Garden website talks about receiving medjool offshoots during that time period, but the timelines don't match up. Upon closer reading of the sourced Indian Country Today article, I believe that article is not internally consistent (moved to US in 1927 + tended by elderly couple for 7 years + isolation for "several more years" =/= 1935) making me inclined to prefer the Oasis Date Gardens timeline. I am unaware of the etiquette for making such a change, if valid. Davidgcox (talk) 23:57, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

silly Wikipedia precision.
You wrote: 'about 2.5 centimetres (0.98 in) in diameter'. Obviously the dates are ABOUT one inch, and giving a precise imperial equivalent for a metric approximation is just silly. Wikipedia does it all the time. One inch is ABOUT two and a half centimeters. NaumTered (talk) 01:09, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * This is the result of using the convert template. If you'd like to change the values displayed, read the rounding section of the template's documentation. Mind  matrix  11:25, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Date fruit
The date fruit is NOT a drupe (there are not a woody endocarp inside) but it is a berry. So the pit is a seed. I do the corrections but it has been deleted. It's possible to put it on again? --Clematis (talk) 08:17, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

A staple food??

 * "Dates have been a staple food of the Middle East and the Indus Valley for thousands of years."

Is this referring to some earlier, starchier cultivar? Because the dates I know are basically candy, and couldn't possibly fulfill any dietary need.__Gamren (talk) 01:04, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:06, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Dates on date palm.jpg

Type of sugar?
Is there any information available regarding the types of sugar in dry dates? Such as glucose, sucrose, fructose, maltose? Eaberry (talk) 17:33, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Added to #Nutrition section. No such user (talk) 15:24, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Tree or Tree-like?
Cf. Arecaceae (palm tree) which is described as "tree-like." Critically, both palm trees and date palms are monocots which means they do not have secondary growth, meaning that they do not fall under some definitions of "tree." I raise this point because of the general inconsistency between Wikipedia pages regarding how these plants are classified. 65.242.132.98 (talk) 00:16, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect representation of information in source. Cultivation section.
This section lists avoidance of calcium carbonate in soil. This is a terrible and very uninformed of agriculture in general. The actual source states that large calcium carbonate stones or concretions should be avoided. In other words, the soil for dates COMMONLY is calcium carbonate to the degree that one must watch out for the things one may find in an arid environment. Lime is fine. Calcium carbonate is fine. Hardpan or stony ground is not. The "reference" is some poorly worded amateur webpage from years ago that has been defunct for ages. And then the Wikipedia editor misunderstands the reference making it obvious the editor has zero expertise in agriculture. The traditional and common soils where date palms are grown are arid calcium carbonate soils. that's how you get the high pH. Just don't try to grow it in rock and hardpan. Can this be fixed? 162.154.248.143 (talk) 18:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)