Talk:Davies-Gilbert

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Notability - some questions
What was the descent from Sir Walter Raleigh?

Was it from his half-brother, surname "Gilbert", if so, it is NOT descent from Walter but from his mother.

Does descent from a hero make a whole family notable?

How notable were the children grand-children and great-grandchildren of Davies Gilbert and Mary Ann Gilbert?

How did Charles Gilbert (Mary Ann's uncle]] acquire his extensive Sussex property?

Did they give coastline near Beachy Head to the National Trust?

Did they plant the gardens of Trelissick (now a National Trust property).

How can the article claim "prestige" for the family, if its main claim to fame is the development (not founding) of Eastbourne?

===Vernon White (talk)  08:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply
''Vernon, I have researched this topic, and come up with the following answers for you. I cannot deliberate the 'Notable and Prestige' elements but can offer some answers.

The descendant from Raleigh is not in fact a descendant, but is as you rightly noted his mother. Therfore I will change descendant to 'relative' whoever originally wrote this is mistaken by this. The grandchildren were notable- army and navy officers, John D-G, and currently living- Jimmy Davies-Gilbert owns some of Eastdean and Eastbourne and holds the mannor of Berling (is the current Squire). Sylvia Telwright (nee Davies-Gilbert) owns and runs the sucessful Tyrley Castle Stud- and has much to do with riding for the disabled. Edward Davies-Gilbert is the Chair of the Cities of London and Westminster Conservative Assoc. Charles Gilbert seems to have been given his Sussex property but I am not sure. They did indeed give the coastline to the national trust and Planted the gardens of Trelissick- which they also gave to the NT.

On the Notablity issue I think it would be correct to call them a notable family. They were, in there time, relatively famous and wealthy and did especially Davies Giddy did much towards the development of Science- Supporting Newton, Humphrey Davy (a close friend) and many other pioneering scientists. I think this does in some way seperate them from the crowd. They are featured in certain books (Debretts, Burkes etc.- also refering to them as this.

Note: The author of the Dictionary of National Biography article says of Davies Giddy:

"Gilbert's importance to the development of science in the early nineteenth century lay in his faith that science provided the best means to tackle practical problems and in his facility as a parliamentary promoter of scientific ventures. "

Prestige is another matter- I do not think their main claim to fame is the development of Eastbourne, but the number of Famous Ancestors they have- because of this and especially in Cornwall and East Dean many older residents or (probably now) sons remember the Davies-Gilberts. They are also very well connected and the surname itself would (based on research) allow many doors to be opened to avenues not otherwise availible.

I hope this helps with your questions- I understand that the last two points I have made would be arguable- but hopefully, for other topics, this answers a few of your comments"

Notability: a response
Thanks for your research on this family. It is clear that Davies and Mary Ann Gilbert were very remarkable people.

Their son, John Davies Gilbert must have been an interesting person. Was he "notable" in a Wikipedian sense? Can you produce a Wikipedia article for him? I have asked the Library of the Royal Society if he did any science, subsequent to his election as a Fellow. I plan to revisit Trelissick Garden and re-read their History display. The NT guidebook is not helpful on the Davies Gilberts.

It seems to me that descent from The Conqueror does not now make a family "notable". Giving large tracts of beautiful coastland to the NT does!

I do not think Davies Gilbert (March 6, 1767 – December 24, 1839) can have supported Sir Isaac Newton, FRS (January 4, 1643 – March 31, 1727).

It would also be good if the Manor House, Eastbourne were included in this article and anything more about the Beachy Head Agronomical experiment and the East Dean Agricultural School, after Mary Ann's death.

Best

=== Vernon White  (talk)  23:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Humphrey Gilbert
Hi Vernon, I added about Sir. Humphrey Gilbert- who I feel should be mentioned as the main family descends from him... I did not mean Newton when I wrote the reply- I did in fact mean Darwin. Sorry for the mistake. Keep in contact, and we can expand this article, as I think it is an important one!

Best

Response
I have made a few further alterations.

What is your evidence that Charles Darwin was helped by Davies Gilbert, please? Erasmus Darwin appears in Beyond the Blaze but not in the role of one needing help.

What new evidence links the family with The Conqueror, please? As I have said before, I do not think descent from him makes a family "Notable" in Wikipedia's understanding of the term. It would be good to know more about the daughters and son of Davies and Mary Ann Gilbert and their children, if they were "notable".

If you could register as a Wikipedia editor, communication would be easier. You should also allocate categories to the article. This would possibly avoid the article being a candidate for rapid deletion.

Reply
I am researching The Conqueror element of it- but so far have come up with very little. He helped Darwin as he was an established supported of science and relatively influential- but I was using it to describe the circles with which Davies Giddy moved in.

Davies Gilbert publications
What is the point of cutting and pasting Davies Gilbert's publications fron the article on him?

=== Vernon White (talk)  22:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

William the Conqueror
Which of the people on William the Conqueror's Family tree link with the Davies-Gilberts, please? === Vernon White (talk)  23:00, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Giddy's Books
First paragraph "books about, or by, the Davies-Gilberts"- this shows some of Giddys books, and therefore illustrates this point. [Unregistered editor ?]

Giddy's Books: Reply

 * The books are listed in the article on Davies Glbert. Did any of the descendants put pen to paper? A search on the British Library catalogue reveals only Davies Gilbert's published work. If none, then do not claim so in the first paragraph.

=== Vernon White (talk)  13:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

John Davies Gilbert
I wrote to the Royal Society, seeking to know what science JD Gilbert did to justify his Fellowship.

They replied 6 Nov 06:

Dear Mr White, Thank you for your email.

We have very little on him!

JD Gilbert did not appear to have written any articles in the Royal Society journals and he has no entries in the R.S.Catalogue of Scientific Papers 1800-1863. There is no obituary for him. There is a record in the Archive catalogue of a letter dated 21/11/1848 which he wrote to the Society asking if he could have copies of the portraits of Sir. Humphrey Davy and his father, D. Gilbert. (MC.4.266)

I did a search on the National Archives www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and he has quite a few entries there but none of a scientific nature.

He has no entry in the British Library catalogue, so has written no books. He does not have an entry in the Dictionary of National Biography - most FRSs do, so I can only think there was not enough to write...

Sorry not to have more! Yours sincerely,

[Name deleted] Information Officer (Cataloguing) Library and Information Services === Vernon White (talk)  15:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello
My name is Nicholas Davies-Gilbert, and as you may have guessed- I am a Davies-Gilbert! Any help that I can provide for either of you, I would be most willing to give. I was going to delete the part about William the Conqueror- as this is utter make-believe, I have not heard of any 'new evidence' and I am sure I would.

Yours,

Nicholas Davies-Gilbert


 * It seems to me that your ancestors Davies and Mary Ann Gilbert were most remarkable people. If the Davies-Gilbert article is to survive, it must present evidence of "notability". It must also be categorised.  I do not think "prestigious" is a useful category, in the view of Wikipedian Admins.


 * The way forward might be to create articles for recognisably distinguished or notorious members of the family and their influence on Sussex, Cornwall and the nation, although I suspect Davies Gilbert's scientific work was world-class. He also got us sensible weights & measures legislation. Perhaps you could add to the WP article, as I do not think Beyond the blaze is either accessible or easy to find (online, copies are offered for £20.25).

===Vernon White (talk)  18:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

John Davies Gilbert 2
He was a fellow of the RS because he supported (gave money to) certain scientists. Just thought I would say that, probably helped that his father was the Ex President, though...

NDG

Yes, I expect you know,Beyond the blaze has several chapters on "Reform and the Royal Society" which indicate the differences in view of the "Gentlemen Scientist" and the professionals.

By the way, you can sign your comments using four tildes ~

Best Vernon White (talk)  00:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Notable D-Gs
Found this one http://www.dnzb.govt.nz/dnzb/default.asp?Find_Quick.asp?PersonEssay=2E10 Enys, John Davies  1837 - 1912 Runholder, naturalist === Vernon White (talk)  12:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Model of Family entry in Wikipedia
Pease family (Darlington) === Vernon White (talk)  21:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Davies-Gilbert papers at ESRO
[http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=179-gilbert&cid=0 THE ARCHIVE OF THE DAVIES-GILBERT FAMILY OF EASTBOURNE, EAST SUSSEX, AND TRELISSICK, CORNWALL is held by East Sussex Record Office and consists of 2236 files. Its online catalogue entry provides much information about the family.] Anyone wishing to upgrade this article should refer to the catalogue entry and, if possible, the deposited papers. Vernon White '''. . . Talk''' 00:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Can they be descendants of Sir Humphrey Gilbert?
It should not be acceptable in Wikipedia to assert something as fact unless it is proved so, or is not under challenge. The UK National Archives assert - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=179-gilbert#0 - that:

"In the 19th century the Gilbert family were convinced that they were descended from the Gilberts of Compton in Devon, and used their coat of arms, despite thorough research by both Davies Gilbert and Carew Davies Gilbert having failed to establish a connection. Davies Gilbert thought that they left Devon in the middle of the 16th century; they were certainly established in Sussex by 1567 when Thomas Gilbert was buried at Willingdon. Possibly this was the same Thomas Gilbert who had been assessed in the hundred of Baldslow, north of Hastings, for the subsidy of 1525.[1] According to family tradition, he had married a daughter of William Waller of Groombridge, whose sister Eleanor married Thomas Parker of Ratton in Willingdon, a view supported by the connections between the families in the next generation."

It is impossible for Thomas Gilbert (d. 1567) to be a son of Humphrey Gilbert (d. 1583) who maried Elizabeth Aucher in 1570, and whose children (who did not include a Thomas) were listed in a heraldic visitation of Devon. It is possible that Thomas Gilbert was connected with the Gilberts of Compton at an earlier date, but as we have seen both Davies Gilbert and Carew Davies Gilbert were unable to establish a connection despite thorough research. My own family also were convinced that they had a descent from Sir Humphrey Gilbert; this is almost certainly false.

I intend to amend this article accordingly, unless there is some proof forthcoming.

Markd999 (talk) 19:57, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

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