Talk:Death of Abed Hamed Mowhoush

Untitled
''[T]he 56-year-old detainee  was murderedby US marines, he stook his last breath through broken ribs, lying on the floor beneath a U.S. soldier in Interrogation Room 6 in the western Iraqi desert. Two days before, a secret CIA-sponsored group of Iraqi paramilitaries, working with Army interrogators, had beaten Mowhoush nearly senseless, using fists, a club and a rubber hose, according to classified documents.''


 * -NPOV
 * -No evidence, since I already gave the Unit designation of this "secret group"
 * -Documents weren't classified, they were retracted

''. Army psychological-operations officers quickly distributed leaflets designed to convince locals that the general had cooperated and outed key insurgents. ''


 * -A reference would be nice, a quick google search didn't show me anything

''See Also:	* Guantánamo Bay Qur'an desecration allegations +	* U.S. invasion of Afghanistan''


 * -Those are not even vaguely related to the topic, and just continue to paint a POV image

Sherurcij 15:34, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

Quoting a source is not POV and IS evidence.
I quote from a reliable source and you ask for "evidence"???? WAS 4.250 02:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)


 * An editorial and an article are two very different things, one is inherently POV, the other (hopefully) is not. The text you quote is POV. Sherurcij 02:45, August 4, 2005 (UTC)


 * Your calling it an editorial doesn't make it an editorial. WAS 4.250 11:53, 4 August 2005 (UTC)


 * No, but the authors themselves calling it a "Report" means that is is not an article, and simple common sense says that the Report you've pasted isn't NPOV. You could reference and copy/paste from Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11, but that wouldn't make it an NPOV source Sherurcij 18:45, August 4, 2005 (UTC)


 * What makes you think "report" means "not an article but instead an editorial". Are you very young? Are you not a native speaker of English? I can not guess why you would assert what you asserted. WAS 4.250 22:35, 4 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm a 21-year old Journalism student whose first language is English. Thanks for asking. Sherurcij 22:59, August 4, 2005 (UTC)


 * Then you should be able to do a better job of using the POV/NPOV matter as a diversion to avoid the issue of a man in U.S. Military custody being brutally beaten to death in a manner that resembles the crimes of the regime he formally served. - LamontCranston 06:42, December 23, 2005 (UTC)

How about including some information on this man's life?
Isn't the fact that he was the head of the Iraqi Air Force supremely more important than an entire article on how he died? John Barleycorn 22:54, August 4, 2005 (UTC)


 * A man in Military custody without charge brutally beaten to death is not important? - LamontCranston 06:51, 23 December, 2005 (UTC)


 * It is important that the disgusting manner of his death is recorded. But some more information on the mans life would be useful considering how notable he was before his murder, the main problem is that most sources on him that refer to his life prior to the warcrime that terminated his life are written in arabic or kurdish. Elmo 10:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
I've tried to clean up the article, while still using your new information about where/how he was 'captured' and such. I've also removed him from the categories "War on Terror" and "Humans Rights Abuses" as we tend not to put every person who was abused on those lists. However I've added him to the "Iraqi People" list :) If you have any concerns, I would appreciate you discussing them on the talk page, before reverting or adding large chunks of text about his death which I think is amply covered now.  As John Barleycorn suggested, I would love to see more on his actual role prior to the 2003 invasion Sherurcij 23:14, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

more encyclopedic
I edited a couple of the sections a bit to make this sound a little more encyclopedia-like. But I am really not happy with the article.

One positive though, RE: NPOV; with Welshofer's conviction, I think some of our problems disappear. We can now say with complete neutrality that Mowhoush was murdered by American forces. (My wording wouldn't be precisely that though.

But I see two major problems with the article in its current form:

First, there is NO biographical information on Mowhoush, who was after all a Major General, and head of the Air Force. That makes him an important enough person to at least have a paragraph of information on him. Yes, the fact that he died under torture is the most important thing about him, vis a vis the English Wikipedia, but I think the first paragraph should have some basic information about him. I've tried google books and Amazon search inside the book, but came up dry. I suggest that somebody who's better at arabic than I try searching arabic language sources.

Second, the article is basically an assemblage of quotes from news sources. How boring and unencyclopedic. Let's write our own paragraphs. I can see that some of these were introduced in the false belief that they preserved a sense of NPOV and thus headed off an impending edit war; surely we can rewrite them better, preserve the same information and stick the news sources in footnotes. -- jackbrown 12:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * also, are we sure he was head of the Air Force? All of the arabic sources I've seen refer to him as head of the Air Defense Forces (which sounds like air defense artillery and SAMs to me). Maybe that's what the Iraqis called their air force though. I have no idea. -- jackbrown 13:13, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I wrote a bulk of the article, if my memory serves, and no, I'm by no means certain - it could very easily have been a translation error, or even just a cursory glance gone wrong. Feel free to change, if the other is more accurate. Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 13:42, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I switched the title to air defense. I think the article looks a bit more encyclopediaish with the additions and rearrangements of today. On the other hand, I've given up trying to find out anything new about Mowhoush's past. Unless Google or Amazon brings some obscure book on Iraq's prewar military forces online, I think we're stuck with the info we have here.

Misinformation
"The circumstances of Mowhoush's "capture", detention and death appear to have been the subject of a campaign of misinformation by U.S. military authorities"

This is an uncited claim. Saying "appear to have been...campaign of misinformation" is someone placing their opinion of the situation in the article. This should be removed and the sentence just saying "The military has changed it's etc.." Chairman Meow 05:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Uncited information should be removed. Cla68 (talk) 04:36, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Rumsfeld criminal indictment
http://www.haguejusticeportal.net/Docs/NLP/Germany/Rumsfeld_CriminalIndictment_29-11-2004.pdf This is not a reliable source. For future reference, the indictment lists [Arthur Kane and Miles Moffeit, Carson GI eyed in jail death Iraqi general died in custody, The Denver Post, May 28, 2004] and [Bob Drogin, Abuse Brings Deaths of Captives Into Focus, Los Angeles Times, May 16, 2004] and [Human Rights Watch: “The Road to Abu Ghraib” p.28] as sources. I'm going to search these sources before I delete the content that was sourced to the indictment. Mnnlaxer (talk) 04:26, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

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