Talk:Derek Boogaard

Height
http://www.hockeyfights.com/players/1571             = 6'7 http://wild.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8469647       = 6'8 http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=50621  = 6'7 The most reliable source is hockeyfights.com, the wild site and NHL are overextending heights, hockeyfights is a neutral source --Something12356789101 (talk) 20:17, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "Overextending heights?" Says who? hockeyfights.com and hockeydb.com are not reliable sources per Wikipedia policy - WP:RS. Wikipedia looks for reliable sources, not neutral sources. NHL.com is the official site of the NHL, his listed height there should be used over third party, unofficial sites like hockeyfights.com that don't have the ability or capacity to check their facts. -- Quar te t  23:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way, edit warring on this is not the way to go. A consensus that goes across all hockey player bios should be reached instead of wasting time constantly reverting disruptive edits from anonymous users. User:Something12356789101 if you insist on joining Twister18's group of IP sockpuppets in disruptively changing heights and weights of enforcers throughout Wikipedia, you'll be blocked as they are. Instead let's work towards a site-wide consensus so that all hockey player bios use the same sources for their heights and weights. -- Quar te t  19:42, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You can make your case here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ice_Hockey#Height_and_Weight -- Quar te t  19:52, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree - Hockeyfights.com is not a reliable source. It's a site run by David M Singer, and relies on user contributed content. They do not disclose where they get their information on heights and weights from or how they check their numbers for accuracy. Same with Hockeydb.com. There are basically 3 options here - official NHL player pages, NHLPA players pages, or a reliable third party source like ESPN.com, TSN.ca, Sportsnet.ca, CNNSI.com etc. etc. --Yankees76 (talk) 20:25, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Just so you know hockeydb.com has been deemed a reliable source because it provides a bibliography and this has been held up in numerous Feature Article requests. That being said for heights and weights we usually go with NHL.com if its available, and if not we use hockeydb.com. -DJSasso (talk) 04:23, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Well they list Boogaard as being an inch shorter and a pound heavier than his NHL.com page, and they're an inch taller than his NHLPA page. If they're a reliable source, they're no help here. -- Quar te t  04:38, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh I know, was just making a general statement. The NHL.com page is the way to go in this situation and those of current players. -DJSasso (talk) 13:28, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

ugh fine and NO i am not a sockpuppet look at my other contributions as proof if you really want--Something12356789101 (talk) 20:35, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I re-worded that in the WikiProject Ice Hockey page. I'm pretty sure you're not the same user, though reverting back to a blocked users edits is never a good idea. Anyways, I've created the discusssion above, hopefully so users site-wide can contribute and we can sort this out. -- Quar te t  20:53, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

ok now he's listed 6'7 again and people keep switching back to 6'8, read his profile, people were so insistent on him being 6'8, why can't you be insistent on the height he was listed at when he broke into the nhl. I'm only following the guidelines you said to use --Something12356789101 (talk) 03:41, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Photo?
Can anyone check this flickr set of a January 2011 Rangers practice session and identify which one is Boogaard? Most likely it's this one. Andrewlp1991 (talk) 06:31, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Or the first guy (from left to right), although he probably is the same. Tb hotch * ۩  ۞ 07:05, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * In both photos, that would be Kris Newbury. Echoedmyron (talk) 14:11, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, at the time of that practice, Boogaard was already on the disabled list, and wasn't at that practice. Echoedmyron (talk) 14:15, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * What about this image? Thanks.--Mo Rock...Monstrous (leech44) 14:49, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Newbury again! Echoedmyron (talk) 15:32, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

This is Derek Boogaard, it appears to be usable, but doesn't do much for a hockey image: image Echoedmyron (talk) 15:36, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * That one still says non-commercial, though. A note to the photographer and he might change it though.  Canada Hky (talk) 17:54, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I'd also found this very blurry image, the only verifiable image of Boogaard available on a Creative Commons license at Flickr. Andrewlp1991 (talk) 21:11, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Age (Death-section)
He only was 27 years old. He hadn't birthday this year. --91.56.194.248 (talk) 17:55, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * He would have been 29 in June, he was born in 1982. Canada Hky (talk) 17:58, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Time of Death
Should May 13th be changed to unknown? He was found dead, but until autopsy results are released, we won't know the date. The fact that his family entered his apartment make me think he was un reachable for some time and had been dead a while. That's just me speculating, but like I say we don't know he died the 13th. Lagerhog (talk) 17:11, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

"Never played again"
Editor Freshfighter9 has been changing the phrasing of the aftermath of Boogaard's concussion, to state that "he was unable to recover sufficiently to play again", rather than to play again that season. There's a huge distinction here, as firstly, Boogaard was starting training and expected to play again next year; second, the phrasing as it currently stands incorrectly implies that Boogaard's career was ended by this concussion, which it wasn't; by making this false implication, adds weight to the (currently) unfounded rumor that the concussion may have something to do with Boogaard's death. From a literal point of view, saying that he never played again is factually true, but is misleading, as had he not died, he certainly would have. (As a comparison, it is as useful as saying that he is the last member of the Rangers to wear number 94; technically true, but the possibility remains that someone else could wear the number.) All this to say, I agree with the other editor who had originally used the "that season" phrasing, as it was the most useful and least ambiguous, but rather than get in an edit war, I'm putting it out there, here, before changing it back. Echoedmyron (talk) 20:44, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone can say with any assurance that he was likely to come back. This piece doesn't present a pretty picture of his symptoms.  "That season" makes it sound like he played again in another season.    I would leave in some type of note that the game where he suffered the concussion ended up being his final game.  Any speculation about what might have happened is only speculation.  Canada Hky (talk) 22:33, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * As is speculation that his career had been ended. That's the first article I've read that cast doubt on a return - everything else suggests he was training, or prepping to train. There is no conclusive evidence that this was a career-ending injury; the only way to have known that would have been had he lived. Lacking conclusive evidence one way or the other, saying that he missed "the rest of the season" isn't problematic at all. That sentence already alludes to his final shift. Echoedmyron (talk) 22:58, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * At this point though (unfortunately) - it is a fact that was his last NHL game. No speculation or original research involved.  There doesn't need to be allusions or speculation.  Boogaard's last NHL shift was the one where he fought Carkner, and that is notable.  Almost every article about him has mentioned it.  Canada Hky (talk) 23:10, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure where I said that his last shift wasn't notable, or where I said that it should not be included, or that he had a concussion. The fact that it did turn out to be his last game is not at all what I am disputing here. I am disputing a simple turn of phrase, which implies, without any evidence at this time to support it, that the his career was ended by that injury. Unless an autopsy shows that the injury directly led to his death, all we can say accurately is that his career was ended by his death. The way that sentence is currently structured, it reads as though the injury ended his career. Echoedmyron (talk) 23:25, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The offending wording has been identified as "he was unable to recover sufficiently to play again". The questions are: did he ever recover fully? Did he ever play again? And the answers are clearly "NO". It is painfully obvious that he will never play after "that season". I see no need to change it. Freshfighter9talk 00:16, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * For that matter, it is also redundant to state, in the same sentence, that his "last shift ended" and then to say that he never played again; it's already clearly stated by "last shift" that he didn't play again, and to that end, I would say that the end of that sentence is not necessary. I'm not trying to be difficult here; my point is that the phrasing now suggests he was incapable of recovering enough (it suggests a cause and effect which is not proven), which would require original research. We'll never know if he ultimately could or could not have recovered, unless the eventual autopsy results indicate that.Echoedmyron (talk) 21:10, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * According to Michael Russo of the Minneapolis Star Tribune: "In a text message to the Star Tribune last month, Boogaard said: "I did not want to have the year I had for my first year. I disappointed a lot of people. So I gotta work my [butt] off this summer so I can get back to what I was doing in Minny, you know?" There is no doubt in my mind Boogaard would have played the following season had he not passed away. Concussions are unpredictable, but to suggest that the fight with Carkner ended his career is ridiculous in my opinion, but I guess we'll wait for the autopsy results.

Contradiction
The 'Death' section says he was found dead. Then it says found unconscious.60.161.248.217 (talk) 15:19, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The Huffington Post link that is used as the cite says he was dead but that the fire officials responded to a "unconscious, not breathing" emergency before declaring him dead. Other sites have "found dead" like this ESPN article, eliding the response crew's role in the discovery. There's no real contradiction, just poor phrasing that doesn't make clear the distinction between calling paramedics because the guy's not breathing and, well, a corpse.  I'll follow the lead of the ESPN article (and others) and just cut to the chase since the consensus is that he was beyond aid when he was found and examined. Kw0134 (talk) 02:13, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Mention death in Intro
The intro needs to mention the death. I wrote "He died at age 28 due to an accidental drug and alcohol overdose." That wording might need to be changed, but surely the irregular death of a 28-year-old is important enough to be highlighted in the intro. Omc (talk) 19:00, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

New York Times series on Boogaard's life and death
The New York Times just ran an excellent three-part series on Boogaard's life and death and the role the many concussions he suffered played in the latter. It's got a lot of great biographical detail that could only improve this article if added and properly sourced. I may be adding it later but if someone else wants to, here are the links (by clicking on them from here, you'll come under the Times' "open web" exception to their paywall)


 * A Boy Learns to Brawl
 * Blood on the Ice
 * A Brain 'Going Bad'.

Daniel Case (talk) 16:05, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

OK, it's done. Took half a week but the article is now more than twice as long. Daniel Case (talk) 23:42, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The NYT article that is currently sourced entitled, "Derek Boogaard: A Brain 'Going Bad'", (see page 6 of article) does not state that C.T.E. might be caused by drugs or alcohol. It merely raises the point that substance abuse can be one of the symptoms or behavior changes associated with C.T.E.

I noticed that this 2011 NYT article quotes one of the neurosurgeons: “as of now, the medical community is not aware that any drug abuse, including alcohol, leads to chronic traumatic encephalopathy." Evenrød (talk) 10:06, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, does the article state anything to the contrary? I was aware of this when I added the material, but should anything in the article be changed? You didn't reference anything specific, and in a cursory onceover I couldn't find anything where it was suggested that his CTE was even in part a consequence of his substance-abuse problems. Daniel Case (talk) 19:54, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Daniel Case (talk). There are two sentences in the article that could be tweaked: First this sentence in the lede:

“A posthumous examination of his brain found he had suffered from chronic traumatic encephalopathy more advanced than that seen in some former enforcers who had died in middle age. It may have been caused by the many concussions he had suffered in the course of his career, or the alcohol and prescription pain medicine on which he had grown dependent.”

And this sentence under the section Issues Raised:

“While Boogaard admitted to a doctor that he may have had a lot more concussions than he acknowledged, even doctors aren't sure if his CTE was purely a result of the brain trauma, due to his substance abuse, which may have played a role as well. "What's the chicken? What's the egg?" says Robert Stern, a brain damage expert.[6]” Evenrød (talk) 21:52, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright. That sentence in the intro is the result of the quote in the sourced sentence, so they're basically the same issue. The full Stern quote from the Times article is:"''We don't know why one person gets it more severely than another person, why one person has a course that is more quick than another person ... But what we are pretty sure of is, once the disease starts, it continues to progress ... He had problems with abuse the last couple years of his life, and that coincided with some of the cognitive and behavioral and mood changes ... What's the chicken? What's the egg?"


 * Taken in isolation, that could be read as implying that substance abuse plays a role in the etiology of CTE. Perhaps Stern was quoted selectively. Here, in USA Today, he leaves less room for interpretation:

"There is no scientific evidence to date that substance abuse or steroid use has any impact on the development of CTE. Having a motor vehicle accident where there is head trauma, that could definitely play a role in the development, but as far as we know a single traumatic brain injury from a motor vehicle accident would not be sufficient to bring about the disease. It's the repetitive nature of the brain trauma."


 * So, taken together, it seems that the real issue Stern was expressing puzzlement about, leading to "What's the chicken? What's the egg?" is that nothing seems to predict the progress of CTE in individual cases. There might, he seems to be suggesting, be some correlation with substance abuse, in that individuals with a greater susceptibility to substance abuse may also be more susceptible to developing CTE, but in the latter case the cause is always the same thing: repeated chronic brain trauma.
 * I propose that we amend the article to state clearly that the medical consensus is that CTE is caused by repeated regular blows to the head, but that doctors aren't sure whether substance abuse is a symptom of it. This report from CBS seems to use the quote more clearly, and we should try to emulate it. Daniel Case (talk) 02:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, here's the clearest statement yet of what this ambiguity was about, from the horse's mouth:

"The association between Boogaard’s brain pathology and his clinical symptoms, specifically the behavioral changes and memory problems he experienced in his last two years, is unclear. For example, his clinical symptoms occurred during the same time period he was exhibiting narcotic abuse. CTE has been found in other deceased athletes who have died from overdoses or who had problems with substance abuse. It is unknown if the substance abuse is caused by the impulse control problems associated with CTE or if they are unrelated." Daniel Case (talk) 03:02, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Cool. Yeah I agree that the particular reference to the chicken and egg could be interpreted different ways based on how it's written in the Times piece. Thanks for posting other sources that better articulate the topic, since they shed a lot more clarity on the issue. If you have the time, I think that you would be better at doing the proposed amending than I. But since I brought this up to begin with, I am certainly willing to do it. Evenrød (talk) 05:02, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Not a problem; I can get to it later today. Daniel Case (talk) 15:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ I removed the sentence from the intro and added the quote from the SLI press release. Daniel Case (talk) 17:27, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks great; concise and unambiguous to boot. By the way, thanks for all your work on this article. Your contributions have really improved it and made it an interesting read. Evenrød (talk) 18:43, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Thanks for your part in a great collaborative experience! Daniel Case (talk) 23:12, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Cause of death
Paracetamol, acetaminophen, was what killed him more than the alcohol or opiates. It's poison — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.190.36.107 (talk) 03:47, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Umm ... so what's your point? We wouldn't be engaging in this sort of speculation in any event. Daniel Case (talk) 03:36, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

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