Talk:Dessie Grew

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Information & Source reference 7
This information is incorrect 80.7.133.241 (talk) 13:44, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Reference 7
Without prejudice- Confidential.

Re: Dessie Grew Wikipedia page.

The reason for the deletion of this reference & source is not edit warring.

The deletion is being made as the information provided is not based on truth or fact.

The Belfast Telegraph unlike the British Telegraph is not a broadsheet newspaper.

The Belfast Telegraph writes for a local audience in what I could reasonably described as a  ‘tabloid’ style.

Desmond Grew was proven not to be in Germany at the time. He was neither questioned, arrested or charged which is legally documented. Respect needs to be given to democracy where one is innocent until they are proved guilty.

So I ask you kindly to remove this reference as it is incorrect. 80.7.133.241 (talk) 13:48, 3 April 2022 (UTC)


 * It can easily be replaced with others. Brits by Peter Taylor, The German police subsequently issued a warrant for the arrest of Desmond 'Dessie' Grew or Lost Lives by McKittrick et al, German police had issued as warrant for his arrest. FDW777 (talk) 14:44, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Rely reference 7
Please impartially examine whether the further publications you now reference to support inclusion of reference 7 and associated narrative are written positions based on fact, suspicion or hearsay. I believe you will find reference 7 and associated narrative lacks factual integrity. Wikipedia needs to be a source of factual information for obvious reasons.

Thank you. 80.7.133.241 (talk) 01:02, 4 April 2022 (UTC)


 * See above. Your rejection of it has already been refuted, in particular your claim about associated narrative lacks factual integrity. To that list you could add Kevin Toolis's book also. FDW777 (talk) 06:42, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Refuted???
Without prejudice

I do not like to disagree but the rejection of reference 7 and the associated narrative has not been refuted as you claim. This reference & associated narrative in my opinion does lack factual integrity due to the origin of the original source. Reference 7 and the associated narrative has in my opinion & I believe in most right thinking people’s opinion no legal efficacy. To use a tabloid newspaper as a source of academic fact, in my opinion & I believe in most right thinking people’s opinion is not well advised.

To cite Kevin Toolis, the now film maker, to further support your inclusion of said reference and associated narrative does not in my opinion & I believe in most right  thinking people’s opinion make your argument stronger. Please examine this author’s source of references in relation to Desmond Grew. This addition highlights the dangers that emanate from the repetition of information that is not based on certainty or factuality.

Wikipedia should not be used as a platform from which to publish unproven information. Wikipedia is a platform for proven facts. I am politely asking that you examine the factual legitimacy  of the sources you have used to create reference 7 and the associated narrative.

I am respectfully asking for the final time that reference 7 and associated narrative is removed.

Thank you. 80.7.133.241 (talk) 10:49, 4 April 2022 (UTC)


 * The answer is no. There are now four different references. That you don't like what they say is of no consequence whatsoever. FDW777 (talk) 10:54, 4 April 2022 (UTC)


 * We could also add the New York Times to the list, who say Mr. Grew was suspected of being involved in several I.R.A. attacks on the Continent, including the shooting deaths of two Australians in the Netherlands earlier this year and the murders of a Royal Air Force corporal and his infant daughter in Germany last October. FDW777 (talk) 14:20, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Proof is needed
I agree that it is irrelevant whether I like or dislike these 4 different references.

You have chosen these same 4 references to lend credibility to your Wikipedia contribution. You obviously believe they support your position.

My opinion is they are of ‘no consequence’ as credible sources of truth as they were supplied without evidence.

Proof is clearly not present in your Wikipedia contribution and this is the reason for my objection.

As for the New York Times which you directly refer to: ‘Mr. Grew was suspected of being involved….’ ‘Suspected’ is the key word. The definition of suspected is: ’have an idea or impression of the existence, presence, or truth of (something) without certain proof.’

The action of publishing information on Wikipedia based on suspicion and therefore without proof does Wikipedia a great disservice.

I shall follow the relevant process to get this matter dealt with as it is obvious that mediation is needed. 2A02:C7F:219:7700:4D54:9370:C8FC:8361 (talk) 18:13, 4 April 2022 (UTC)


 * A warrant had been issued by German police is a purely factual statement. Sorry you don't like facts. FDW777 (talk) 19:33, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

I like facts particularly important when it comes to Wikipedia contributions
Ironically the point you seem to be missing is that I very much like facts, proven facts, not ‘suspicion’  presented as facts. 80.7.133.241 (talk) 20:22, 5 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Based on your comments on this talk page, it seems that you might have a conflict of interest with the article subject. Please read WP:COI. If you do have a conflict of interest, please disclose it when commenting further. Thanks. — Manti  core  00:34, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Volunteer
It's the correct term used by academics.

And so on. FDW777 (talk) 12:22, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Inside the IRA by Andrew Saunders (Edinburgh University Press) but the revelation that it had been an IRA volunteer who had accidentally shot McIlhone
 * The IRA, 1968-2000: An Analysis of a Secret Army by J. Bowyer Bell (Routledge) The great ritual of Ireland is not in possession of church or state but rather occurs, appropriately, in a graveyard when an IRA volunteer is buried
 * Times of Troubles: Britain's War in Northern Ireland by Andrew Sanders (not to be confused with Andrew Saunders above) (Edinburgh University Press) O'Hagan's status as an IRA volunteer remains unclear to this day.
 * Walking Away from Terrorism: Accounts of Disengagement from Radical and Extremist Movements  by John Horgan (Routledge) remaining involved and disengaging between one major IRA volunteer's experiences and those of contemporary Al Qaeda foreign fighters
 * Ruairí Ó Brádaigh: The Life and Politics of an Irish Revolutionary by Robert White (Indiana University Press) By the time the first IRA volunteer was killed in action in South Armagh
 * Provisional Irish Republican Army and the Morality of Terrorism by Timothy Shanahan (Edinburgh University Press) As Anthony McIntyre, a former IRA volunteer
 * The Provisional Irish Republican Army and the Development of Mortars by Gary Ackerman (Journal of Strategic Security) The local unit and South Armagh volunteers
 * Gunrunners: The Covert Arms Trail to Ireland by Sean Boyne (O'Brien Press) IRA Volunteers tied him into a car containing a bomb
 * The I.R.A. by Tim Pat Coogan (St. Martin's Griffin) An IRA volunteer, Martin Doherty, tackled the Loyalists and managed to prevent the detonation of the bomb, but was killed in the process
 * 25 Years of Terror: The IRA's war against the British by Martin Dillon (Bantam Books) An IRA volunteer with similar characteristics was Patrick Magee
 * Armed Struggle: The History of the IRA by Richard English (Pan Books) He was again arrested, in October 1976, in Dunmurry, Belfast, after an IRA operation: they had bombed the Balmoral Furnishing Company in a hit involving nine IRA Volunteers
 * A Secret History of the IRA by Ed Moloney (Penguin Books) The Executive chooses the members of the Army Council and selects replacements when vacancies occur; but its more important role is to act as the voice and conscience of ordinary IRA Volunteers
 * The Irish War: The Military History of a Domestic Conflict by Tony Geraghty (Fire and Water) In March 1986, after an IRA volunteer killed himself through reckless handling of a loaded launcher
 * Playing the 'Green Card' - Financing the Provisional IRA: Part 1 by John Horgan & Max Taylor (Terrorism and Political Violence) Its principal activities include volunteer training, funding, and the storage and movement of armaments
 * Stakeknife: Britain's Secret Agents in Ireland by Greg Harkin & Martin Ingram (O'Brien Press) Burns was a willing agent, and began providing valuable information to his handlers, information on every IRA volunteer
 * The Intelligence War against the IRA by Thomas Leahy (Cambridge University Press) Thereafter, the list of vehicles gathered could help potentially catch IRA volunteers travelling in their own or in stolen cars
 * Making Sense of the Troubles: A History of the Northern Ireland Conflict by David McKittrick & David McVea (Penguin Books) So many were being killed that Adams as Sinn Féin president publicly appealed to IRA volunteers in 1989 to avoid such incidents
 * The Long War: The IRA and Sinn Féin by Brendan O'Brien (O'Brien Press) IRA volunteers and Sinn Féin members had put their trust in the leadership
 * Special Category: The IRA in English Prisons, Vol. 2: 1978-1985 by Ruán O’Donnell (Irish Academic Press) In America, where the 'political exception' calused restated by the McMullen judgement in 1979 had barred the transfer of IRA Volunteers
 * A Broad Church: The Provisional IRA in the Republic of Ireland, 1969–1980 by Gearóid Ó Faoleán (Merrion Press) Border IRA volunteers were particularly nonplussed
 * IRA: The Bombs and the Bullets: A History of Deadly Ingenuity by Andy Oppenheimer (Irish Academic Press) Provisional IRA volunteers could walk freely through housing estates and rural areas without hindrance
 * Provos The IRA & Sinn Féin by Peter Taylor (Bloomsbury Publishing) Just over two months later, on 4 September 1970, a Provisional IRA Volunteer, Michael Kane, was killed
 * Out of the Ashes: An Oral History of the Provisional Irish Republican Movement by Robert White (Merrion Press) Every one of them was killed alongside a male Provisional IRA volunteer