Talk:Detroit/Archive 1

NPOV removal
removed from article.

"When you say you live in Detroit - at least, to anyone in Michigan or surrounding states - everyone is like, ew, Detroit. Scary. But seriously people - Detroit is not that bad. Yeah, it has its share of bad neighborhoods, but so does every big city. It also has its share of really nice neighborhoods. And yes, Detroit does have grass!!! And also lots of awesome museums, beautiful houses, and historical, intricate theaters."

some mention of detroit's image problem is appropriate but this is not NPOV. Rmhermen 01:29, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)

Visiting Detroit
I'm thinking of visiting Detroit in January for day trips while I am in Windsor for a while. Can someone please tell me which areas to avoid for safety concerns? dave 23:54, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * You're funny. Rules are the same as any other large city. Stay out of unlit places, avoid housing projects. If a girl comes up and asks you if you're looking for a date she wants money... =) Seriously though, stay in the downtown area, (come through the tunnel) there's plenty for a tourist to do - casinos, pubs (get to Hockeytown if you can), go see a show at the Fox or the State. If you were moving to Detroit proper, that's another story, then it's all about the neighborhood. Hope this is of some use. vudu 00:47, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I wasn't really trying to be funny, although I thought I some people (like those who live in Detroit) might have a reaction like that. I know to avoid unlit areas and housing projects but I'm the type of person who wouldn't notice I was in one until I was in the middle of it.  I just thought there might be some specific blocks to stay out of.  I was told to stay out of Downtown at night.  Perhaps this is not true for all of downtown. Are there areas of downtown which are safe at night?  dave 17:22, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * Speaking as a resident of Detroit (proper) I can tell you that the advice you received were probably from tourists of the area. A lot of people claim Detroit as a hometown, but don't live there, don't know the city beyond Joe Louis Arena, Comerica Park, Hockeytown, and Ford Field and spend more time talking smack than actually going to the city. From the tunnel just head straight up Woodward. If you're young and "hip", try the Magic Stick. For the "professional" Hockeytown is further up the road and the Town Pump Tavern is on State (I think....I've had a few too many the few times I've been there). There's a casino near the Hockeytown/Ford Field/Comerica section. Oh yeah, the Rockettes are at the Fox until the 28th of December. First timer in Detroit? Hold your head up and don't be intimidated, those "bad" people can see fear a mile away. Stay on Woodward, travel with friends if it helps make you feel comfortable. Enjoy the city. Hope this is of use. vudu 02:53, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I'm one of those "doesn't/didn't live in Detroit" Detroiters that vudu mentions, though I have wandered around a lot of the city for 30 years or so and have rarely if ever felt like I was threatened. Check out the Heidelberg Project for something different, and something real Detroit. Learn a bit about Detroit's architectural history before you go there. Visit the Fabulous Ruins of Detroit website [look, you'll find it] for some ideas. And don't worry, be happy.

Try to catch a show at The Masonic Temple especially if you like architectural history. Just don't walk there after dark. Taking a cab is fine, as the area around it is safe, but the 2 block walk from Woodward may not be safe for a tourist on foot.

Population change?

 * Detroit, Michigan Population changed from 1.6 million to 1.85 million; 06:39, 6 Feb 2004; (diff).
 * Verified, according to U.S. Census --Minesweeper 00:17, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Speaking of population, should we list the population of the Detroit metro area in this article? Tampa and Atlanta have these figures in their articles.

2002 population figures
Where are the 2002 population figures from?

The current version says: As of 2002, the city has a total population of 1,120,051

The previous version had: As of 2002, the city has a total population of 925,051

I can't find either of these 2002 figures at the U.S. Census web site. For example, this page has these figures:

2002 Estimate: 889,888 Lower Bound:   858,464 Upper Bound:   921,312

The 2000 census figure of 951,270 is correct. So unless there is a source for either of the versions above, I suggest we use the 2002 Estimate. Bkonrad | Talk 13:08, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Pizza chains
Which national pizza chains are based in Detroit? I can only think of Dominos, which is atually based in Anna Arbor. What others are there? older &ne; wiser 14:20, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Domino's is in Ann Arbor. Little Caesar's is, I think in Detroit proper, but I can't find an address. Rmhermen 15:00, May 25, 2004 (UTC)

Ilitch Holdings, Inc. Fox Office Center 2211 Woodward Avenue Detroit, Michigan 48201-3400

source http://www.ilitchholdings.com/Contact_Us/contact_us.html

also operated out of Ann Arbor, and a very good pizza:

Cottage Inn Management 4390 Concourse Blvd. Ann Arbor, MI 48108

source http://cottageinn.com/new/corp_address.asp

Detroit, Michigan
Why was this page moved? Rmhermen 04:21, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
 * Because Detroit was simply a redirect to Detroit, Michigan. There was already a separate disambiguation page Detroit (disambiguation).  Also, Detroit, Michigan is the most well-known "Detroit", and most links that point to to Detroit imply the Michigan one, in the same way that we have London, not London, UK or Sydney not Sydney, Australia and Paris, rather than Paris, France even though cities of those names exist in other places.  Naming conventions, suggest putting articles at their most common name.


 * Another possibility is to move the Detroit (disambiguation) page to Detroit and the current Detroit back to Detroit, Michigan, that would be fine with me also, but the state of affairs that it was in before didn't make sense, i.e. it didn't make sense to have Detroit be a redirect to Detroit, Michigan, if disambiguation is your concern, then the disambiguation should be at Detroit. --Lexor|Talk 12:32, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * No the naming convention is at Naming conventions (city names) - city, state (province) for U.S. and Canada and it is followed by 30,000+ plus articles (except two -New York and now Detroit). Please move it back. Rmhermen 13:43, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
 * Looking at the talk page, it looks like there's still some debate about the wisdom of applying the rule in blanket way, for the very reasons that I stated. I, too, like the idea of consistency, but there would appear that there should be some room for deviation especially in the case of very well-known cities such as San Francisco, New York, Chicago, Detroit etc.  I don't buy the "it makes it more professional" argument either, the Britannica uses Detroit, not Detroit, Michigan, New York not New York, New York.  Still, if this is the view of most contributors, I will move it back (later because I'm logging off), and take my case to the naming convention talk page. --Lexor|Talk 14:16, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * One of the problems is that if we break the standard, everyone wants to break the standard for their favorite city and we have this discussion several times, several dozen times, several hundred times. Rmhermen 19:45, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)

The Detroit page should most emphatically NOT be a disambiguation page. There are hundreds of links to it, ALL of them for the city in Michigan. The city in Michigan is fairly well known throughout the world--how many people outside of Texas have heard of the other? older &ne; wiser 21:17, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Good points. I should have read this Talk page and the naming conventions page before doing anything. Robert Happelberg 19:51, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Crime
Why isn't there any mention of the notorious crime rate in Detroit? I have heard that the city has the largest murder rates in the federation of America. I don't know much about this, but I would love to learn. And that's why I wonder why no one has written about this in Wikipedia? user:cun
 * I will try to add something. Rmhermen 16:24, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)
 * The crime is not really any worse than any other large city in the "federation of America" (we normally call it just America, or the US, while the nation is a federation, you won't hear Americans using that term, republic maybe). But, it should be discussed as long as it is done so in a factual, non-POV way.

Celebrities
I removed Madonna, Tim Allen, and George C. Scott because I could not confirm that they were born or lived in Detroit. Certainly they all lived in the Metro Detroit region but did any of them live in Detroit? Rmhermen 16:24, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)


 * George C. Scott was born in Wise, Virginia but raised in Detroit (not the Detroit area, but the actual city). Madonna spent her formative years in Oakland County, so she does not necessarily count, but I'm sure if you asker her where she was from she would say "Detroit."  The same probably goes for Tim Allen; he was raised in Birmingham and still lives in Oakland County.  If you are including those who were raised or lived in the Detroit area, you could add Robin Williams.  Tim Meadows was born in Highland Park but attended Wayne State University.  Both Bruce Campbell and Sam Raimi were born in Royal Oak, but only Raimi (and his brother, Ted) lived in Detroit for some time.  Lawrence Kasdan was born in West Virginia and spent most of his former years in Ann Arbor, but I didn't find any evidence that he actually lived in Detroit.  Dave Coulier, co-star of the show "Full House," was born in Detroit and raised in St. Claire Shores.  Improv actor John Witherspoon was born and raised in Detroit.  Courtney B. Vance, actor, was born in Wayne and grew up in Detroit.  Pam Dawber, Mork and Mindy actress, was born in Detroit.  Hope this helps!!  -Gsgeorge 05:22, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes it helps. The list needs to remain those in the city itself. I will make sure those others get addded. (I suppose we could start another list on the Metro Detroit page to include the others.) Rmhermen 13:24, Jul 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, there should be more than a list of charter townships on the Metro Detroit page. I would be pleased to help you out. -Gsgeorge 15:49, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

George C. Scott lived in northwest Detroit and attended Redford High School, according to reports in the Detroit dailies at the time of his death. He also founded and ran the short-lived Theater of Michigan Company in 1961, which produced plays at the old Shubert Theater downtown.

If the criteria for inclusion on this list is birth or residence "within" the city limits of Detroit, then you are correct in excluding Tim Allen and Madonna. Allen grew up in Birmingham (I believe it was actually Beverly Hills) and attended Seaholm High School. Madonna grew up in what is now Rochester Hills and attended Adams High School. Lawrence Kasdan worked for the Doner advertising agency in Southfield, along with cartoonist Cathy Guisewite. Where they each resided at the time, I don't know. Jackie Kallen attended Mumford High School and later was the entertainment writer for the Oakland (nee Pontiac) Press, while residing in West Bloomfield. I retracted Lester Bangs, because he lived in Birmingham while serving as editor of Creem Magazine. Marlo Thomas was born in Detroit, but I'm not sure where her father, Danny, was residing at the time. His bio states his birthplace as Deerfield, Michigan.

Of course, it's this "city versus suburbs" (aka black vs white) mentality that has stunted whatever hopes the Detroit region has for attaining "world class" status in the eyes of the world. Just the fact that many of the people on the list once "lived" in Detroit, but left to live, work and succeed elsewhere, says it all. 24.14.44.242 17:15, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)T Garth]
 * I encourage everyone who has been working on this section to also look at and expand the text portions of the page. We really don't have a lot there yet. Rmhermen 02:38, Jul 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * I would be glad to help expand the Detroit entry, but what exactly are the parameters for inclusion of subject matter? I notice that while "important persons" from Detroit's suburbs are excluded, certain corporations, sports teams and one big regional airport (all of which are sited outside of the city proper) are not.T Garth 06:58, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Good point. Those things which are outside the city should be clearly identified. But how could you remove the Pistons? (I suppose that is an argument for re-adding those celebrities from Metro Detroit if they are labeled as such or maybe in a separate Metro Detroit subsection on this article.) Rmhermen 13:30, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)

This list is getting pretty long and could get quite a bit longer if we add in historical persons as well as current notables. Any objections to moving it to a separate page, something like List of notable persons from Detroit? older &ne; wiser 17:01, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Not really an objection but I note that Chicago has a list at least as long and New York City has one - although it is pretty short considering the possibilities. Rmhermen 02:24, Aug 1, 2004 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I really dislike how the Chicago article looks. It is way way too long IMO (72KB and 47 full-screen scrolls top to bottom). But I've no inclination to fix it at this time. NYC is a bit better organized and just a bit more than half as large (42KB and 24 scroll-downs)--Houston has same stats as NYC. LA is smaller, but appears to be less developed as yet. Detroit hasn't hit the >32KB warning yet, but out of 12 scroll-downs total, a full 4 screens were nothing but the names section. That doesn't seem balanced to me. older &ne; wiser 03:29, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Is it possible to add columns to a section?
 * Yes, using table markup. Rmhermen 16:28, Aug 1, 2004 (UTC)
 * I did this, i hope you all enjoy. 3 columns works pretty well on even a skinny browser window for me. More columns would use space even more efficiently but would look real ugly in small browser windows. --foobaz|&#9998;

Festivals
While the Woodward Dream Cruise does have nine official "host" communities--all in Oakland County--the route, and therefore the event, extends into the City of Detroit to the Michigan State Fairgrounds. Incidentally, the Dream Cruise's "official" headquarters is in the home of its only paid employee, who lives in Clawson, off the route entirely.

If we're going to keep up this ridiculous "city-suburb" divide, then I vote to delete from the "Detroit" article all references to the Pistons, Kmart, Metro airport and all the other things we associate with Detroit but just happen to be located outside of the city limits. T Garth 06:11, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Aside from using a state-owned parking lot at the nothern edge of Detroit, there is no participation of or by the city in the Dream Cruise. It is not one of the nine towns on the event's board or sponsor any associated events or have any part of the "course" as it is. On the other hand there is no reason not to explain the culture andenvironment in which Detroit exists -while properly attributing those aspects influence it but are not part of it. So "Kmart is located in nearby Troy" (or however the exact phrase goes in the article.) Rmhermen 13:34, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)

Corrected U.S. Ranking
Detroit is the 10th largest city in the United States, not the 9th. Order goes as follows: 1 New York, 2 Los Angeles, 3 Chicago, 4 Houston, 5 Philadelphia, 6 Phoenix, 7 San Diego, 8 San Antonio, 9 Dallas, 10 Detroit. --Anon 06:32, Aug 22, 2004 (UTC)

Detroit is now #11 behind San Jose Ca

Addressing System
Detroit is the one which have long addresses, I just added this on trivia.

Defining Detroit
After lengthy conversation at the discussion page of user Rmhermen, I'm moving the topic here to avoid clogging things up over there.

Reading through this page, I see that the city/suburbs issue has already been a matter of debate. I am not sure what more I can say to press the point, but I'll go ahead and reiterate it anyway: "Detroit" is more than the area bounded by the city limits.

Rmhermen wrote: "Your statements reveal to me the hubris of a city trying to claim as its own everything in a vague undefined area outside of itself."

"Hubris"? I can't speak for others, but for me this is certainly not about personal motivations or emotions. I'm not "trying to claim" anything. My only goal is accuracy and thoroughness. To begin with, I don't live within the city limits of Detroit. So even if I were on some personal mission, it certainly wouldn't be on behalf of the land enclosed within the city limits. No one is served by broad editorial decisions based on personal anecdotal evidence -- stuff like, "I have in-laws who haven't set foot in the city... ."

I think what's complicating things here is the same city/suburbs tension that complicates life in the Detroit area. That tension deserves to be explored in the Wikipedia entry; indeed, a Detroit entry that omitted the topic would be conspicuously incomplete.

If I were King Of Wikipedia, I would fold the "Metro Detroit" page into the "Detroit" page and make the distinctions where necessary. Metro Detroit isn't some "vague undefined area." It is part of Detroit; it exists because Detroit exists. The Detroit Zoo is in a place called Royal Oak. The Detroit Pistons play in a place called Auburn Hills. Every day the Detroit News covers events in places called Sterling Heights and Novi. Ad nauseam.

If Madonna is to be omitted from a list of notable Detroit personalities, then Ford Motor Co. and DaimlerChrysler need to be omitted from the roll call of notable Detroit automakers.
 * Please look at a number of other Wikipedia articles on American cities. I believe you will find the city articles are just that articles about the city. That why we have a separate page about the metro area to include the other stuff. To try to merge them is to obscure the distinction. Metro Detroit is ill-defined because the government defines it one way while popular usage defines it in a different way (expanding it to parts of counties the census doesn't count and restricting it from parts of counties that it does.) The city has enough and more to talk about in the mere 32 kb limit. I agree that a section on the city/suburb conflicts needs to be added here. The Detroit Zoo is owned and operated by the city despite its location. The Detroit News is based in and about Detroit (It's been a while -isn't there a separate "Metro section" in the paper.) The auto makers are already clearly labeled as suburban in this article and both have or have had operations or headquarters in the city. Madonna was not born there, did not live there, work there or go to school there. I have not seen any dialect map that mentions a separate Detroit dialect as you have claimed. The ones I have checked put Detroit with Chicago in the Inland North dialect (while Toledo has a separate dialect, which I can't say that I've ever noticed but "I am not a linguist".) Rmhermen 17:09, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)

One thing needs to be said: city residents are "Detroiters." Suburbanites are "Metro Detroiters." You do NOT refer to someone from Warren, Farmington, etc. as a "Detroiter." That is simply wrong.

As to the Detroit Zoo, it is actually "in" the City as far as the state legislature is concerned. When it was sectioned off drom Royal Oak Township, it was deemed to be within the City limits and is patrolled by Detroit police officers and there is a Detroit firefighters contingent there. Since Mayor Kilpatrick is attempting to sell the Zoo, this may change, but for right now, it is appropriate to say that the Detroit Zoo is in Detroit. Jtmichcock

Reoccuring text
The following text appears twice... once as part of a larger paragraph, and again as a separate paragraph a bit later...

''During recent urban renewal, several abandoned skyscrapers and large buildings have been demolished or renovated, large numbers of old houses razed for new housing developments, and an expedited procedure established to remove abandoned homes near schools. Large numbers of abandoned buildings still remain in numerous blighted areas.''

Why "New York" in regard to ethnic immigration?
The user Moncrief seemed puzzled by the line in Demographics noting that Detroit's ethnic groups primarily came from New York in the early 20th century. While the initial casting of the sentence was a bit loose, its essence was accurate. (I've tweaked the wording for more precision.)

Detroit's ethnic communities, like those throughout the Midwest, came to the city by way of New York. If it were simply a matter of immigrants' passing through Ellis Island on their way to Michigan, the point would be academic. However, a large number of Detroit's early ethnic families were bona fide New York transplants who'd been lured by the rising auto industry.

In fact, the State of Michigan at one point maintained a program to draw these New York emigres -- not just for industrial work but for boosting agriculture elsewhere in the state. Representatives staged recruiting efforts in New York's ethnic wards. Semolina Pilchard 22:46, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Recent changes
I see that there have been some attempts to consolidate information into categories. That's not a bad idea; efficient organization of the page can only help.

However, this consolidation has taken place at the expense of the article's lead-in, which now consists of three paragraphs: a decent opening graf, a number-cluttered second graf, and an incongruous third graf about urban blight and crime rates. Gone is such essential introductory information about Detroit's importance in manufacturing and music.

I've got nothing against the idea of creating categories to expand on these topics. That's a logical way to construct the page, and is helpful for readers. But an article's opening passage is crucial: It is the place where key concepts should be introduced to provide readers with a glimpse at the broader picture. It should not be a mishmash of arbitrary stuff.

When I've got time, I'm going to go back in and reconstruct the opening. Meantime, please take care not to delete large blocks of existing text while trying to consolidate information into categories.

Thanks, Semolina Pilchard Dec. 13, 2004
 * I agree. I will let you do it (since numbers-cluttered paragraphs are my specialty and we don't need more of them here). Rmhermen 05:20, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * Keep an eye on the photos too. They seem to be crowding some of the text.  The image of the Detroit skyline is overlapping some text in the table of contents last time I checked.  I am viewing Wikipedia on Firefox--this may have something to do with it, but the images seem a little overcrowded anyway.  I'm no expert with photo placement so I dare not change it, but it's something to keep in mind for future revision.  -Gsgeorge 15:06, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

14 Jan racial breakdown changes
Today i noticed that Kingturtle reverted the edits made by 128.113.136.201. I think it's totally reasonable to order the list by population, which puts "Black" instead of "White" first. This is exactly what 128.113.136.201 changed it to. Therefore i disagree with Kingturtle's revert. Does anyone else have an opinion on this topic? foobaz&middot;&#10000; 08:19, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I have no qualms about having it the way you prefer. change it. I will not revert it. Kingturtle 09:24, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you! foobaz&middot;&#10000; 18:41, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Bizarre two-headed article
I'm not sure why, but somehow the entire article got duplicated and inserted into the middle of itself. I'm going to excise the offending material; if anybody is concerned about version differences, here's your warning to go look. - David Spitzley (dspitzle at davidaspitzley dot org)

New "major edits"
Since when is this article in the process of undergoing major revisions? Boothy443 put an "inuse" banner at the top. I don't recall any huge edits being made recently and if there are huge edits being made in the future they should be discussed before they are permanent. Gsgeorge 18:25, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * One-hundred percent agreed. This article has faced enough recent trauma -- and subsequent painstaking repair -- without somebody abruptly diving in to undertake a massive overhaul. Semolina Pilchard 19:37, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * before you start bashing, why dont you look at what i have done, compared to what is present. --User:Boothy443 | comhrÚ 19:45, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * see:Detroit, Michigan/Temp for edits that are in progress, compare this page to many other city pages, and i believe that this page is in need of work/cleanup, constructive comments and questions are welcomed. --User:Boothy443 | comhrÚ 19:07, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think anybody will be objecting to a logical reordering of the material. However, with all due respect, I do hope you intend to clean up your writing contributions, which are pocked with misspellings, grammar errors and clunky shifts in tense. Additionally, the consensus here has been that the article's lead-in should be fairly descriptive -- the place where significant facts and concepts are introduced and summarized. As it stands now, you've reduced it to a single, uninviting paragraph. Semolina Pilchard 19:59, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Looks like the big overhaul has been completed and unveiled to the public. I'll be diving in to fix up the slew of grammar and spelling problems that now decorate the article. I've just finished the first leg of work, and must say I'm somewhat astonished that this user locked the article down for more than a week to conduct a "major edit," then released the piece in this kind of condition.
 * Not. Too. Cool.
 * Semolina Pilchard 05:00, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Hey Semolina, why dont you just shove it--User:Boothy443 | comhrÚ 06:18, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC), and sicne you "like it so much" why don't you just take it back the way you had it. hold on let me fix that for you. --User:Boothy443 | comhrÚ 06:18, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I must say I liked Semolina's edits to Boothy's revisions. Boothy's massive edits weren't perfect but it helped the article structurally and Semolina managed to clean it up considerably so that it was readable.  I'm up for reverting to Semolina's edited version (the one from 00:47, 13 Feb 2005), and I certainly don't think that reverting to the original after all that just out of spite was a good idea.  I'm tempted to revert to Semolina's myself, but I want to hear the consensus first.  I'd be more than happy to help clean up the article further in the future if we do revert to this version.  It seems like a combination of the best of both, and the changes will make this article much better.  Just my opinion. Gsgeorge 07:14, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree. The restructuring of the piece was a good thing. I just thought the writing needed some tweaks. I'd pointed this out in an earlier comment while the Boothy revisions were in progress (see above), yet the final version still included such glaring typos as "epically" (for "especially").
 * Boothy443: We're not here to cater to each other. At the risk of sounding ridiculously pretentious, we're here to serve the bigger cause of producing a worthy encyclopedia. I regret that my note didn't include any kudos for your work in reconfiguring the piece, so I'll take that opportunity now: Good job. I apologize for what may have come off as a hostile tone; I should not have made my remarks personal.
 * In the end, though, I don't think it's worth yanking the ball and going home (particularly since we can just get the ball back by reverting to your reconfiguration). Again, we're all here for the same reason: to make the Wiki as good as it can be. It's not about user-vs.-user. Semolina Pilchard 14:18, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I am not opposed toi goping back to the old version and readding any useful changes - and only those back in. This is still a mess and useful content has been removed. Rmhermen 00:30, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm starting to agree with Rmherman here. Although Boothy's revisions contained some very useful restructuring, a lot of information has been omitted and a lot of information is reiterated.  Semolina, others and I were able to fix much of the grammar, and I thought this would correct many of the problems, but a lot remains to be done.  I think a combination of the two versions would be massively helpful--sort of a "best of both worlds", like what was discussed above.  However, it's certainly a lot to be digging through.  Quite frankly, I haven't the faintest desire to pilot such a task.  I don't really know where it went wrong, but Boothy certainly should've kept us a little more updated on the progress--and most certainly should've checked over the revisions a little more before locking down the article at his/her own discretion and changing the entire thing. Gsgeorge 01:02, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Kmart / Fortune 500

 * side note...probably would want to remove Kmart from the group of fortune 500 companies based in Dtown. the recent sale/merger with the sears/reobuck co has also relocated their HQ our of state :(

Off-Topic: Mythic Detroit
Just in case anybody's interested, I'm working on an outside webpage dealing with the more epic/Fortean/odd aspects of the city: http://www.davidaspitzley.org/MythicDetroit. I've got several additional sections in the works, dealing with the founder of the Nation of Islam (and the "Voodoo Murders" which resulted in him fleeing the city), fascist activities in the city during the Depression, and a couple of other topics. I'd be happy for any comments or suggestions.

Photos after heavy edits
Hey what happened to the picture of the Detroit skyline? that was a nice picture.
 * It appears that it is missing, as well as the image of Cadillac's landing. It's probably a result of Boothy's recent overhaul.  I'll track them down and re-insert them later unless someone beats me to the punch.  I'm not sure why they were taken out in the first place.  If anyone has any objections to reisnerting them, comment.  Thanks for pointing it out.  Gsgeorge 01:07, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Nope, go for it. No objections here. Meanwhile, where do we stand with the whole revising-the-Boothy-revisions thing? You and I cleaned up quite a bit of it, but it seems there were some remaining concerns. And with the recent Wiki downtime, I'm a little lost on where stuff is at. Ahh well. For now, I'm off to update the Detroit Electronic Music Festival page, in light of today's Free Press story with the latest twist in that ongoing saga... Semolina Pilchard 02:29, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Tiger Stadium/Downtown Office Buildings
Someone called Tiger Stadium "dilapidated," which is not even remotely a NPOV, and which also overlooks the fact that the stadium was much beloved. It's much more appropriate to call it "historic."

Also, it was written that Compuware's new building was the first major office building in two decades. Did someone forget Comerica Tower (1992)--the city's second tallest building?


 * I was in Tiger Stadium for the Bud Bowl party and if it isn't "dilapidated" it is on the way. The field is muddy, some of the exposed girders are rusting and some of the decorative facing below the roofline has fallen off.   One of the local papers had photographs of a tree growing out of a seat.  Dmoon 12:15, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Population data source
My source for my recent edits of population data is:
 * http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/GCTTable?-format=US-10S

There are other pages on http://census.gov with the same data, but that has the most helpful format, especially since it includes the area and density. Foobaz &middot; &#10000; 02:28, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Um...
I'm not sure the longest, wordiest part of the Detroit entry should be information about the pastries that are eaten on "Fat Tuesday." Semolina Pilchard 19:43, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * You're right, but as a former resident of the area i can tell you the information is accurate. And it's nice to have something in the culture section that doesn't sound ghetto.  19:55, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There's a serious problem here.
This article has been seriously vandalized. Just alerting you of that fact.

Better source for current population counts
Suggestion

See www.SEMCOG.org, "Data" >> "Population Estimates">> "Population and Household Estimates for Southeast Michigan" Download "Population and Household Estimates for Southeast Michigan - May 2005" (http://www.semcog.org/Data/PopulationEstimates/index.htm). SEMCOG (The Southeast Michigan Council of Governments) provides more quality, up-do-date population & household estimates.
 * Sure, add them if you like and cite the source, but since those numbers are produced from a very different method and source than census data, don't remove the numbers in the article. Read the FAQ on the page you've linked to, for how they get their data. Vacancy rates are particularly problematic to estimate I'd think. In any case thanks for the info. Please sign your posts with four tildes ( ~ )- Taxman Talk 21:17, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

As I understand it, SEMCOG uses 100% counts from the decennial Census as the base, but uses superior data to complete the estimate. The FAQ doesn't give a full explanation of the methodology; it may be worth speaking with a SEMCOG demographer. Normally I would think Census estimates would be sufficient, but given the intense interest in the City's declining population, it may be helpful to include SEMCOG's estimates, as they are used for a number of governmental planning purposes in SE Michigan and differ from the Census' estimates program. I don't have the time right now to work out the writing right now; it would be a bit of a challenge to present both numbers without confusing the readers. So I leave this only as food for thought.

On the topic of SEMCOG, another report available at their website that may be useful for this article is "Detroit and 300 Years of Metropolitan Growth" (http://www.semcog.org/Products/pdfs/Detroit300.pdf). This gives excellent historical tables and maps of Detroit's population and growth patterns.

68.85.159.84 03:54, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

High schools
Why would you revert the merging in of the Cooley High info? That is the result of the huge debate on school deletion. It is much better to have the schools covered in one place, and the article on the city the school is located in is a good option. So unless there is a Detroit public School system article to merge it into instead, please leave it here. - Taxman Talk 13:17, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Crime
It took out the reference to street gangs who "patrol the streets" of Detroit... but it was put back. I deleted that again. It simply is not true that gangs of thugs can be seen "patroling the streets." It is sensationalistic and inaccurate to suggest such a thing. I also put in new information about downtown's crime rate and edited some it to take out some of what I saw as subtlety racist comments.

I agree, Detroit does have gangs but they're not nearly as common here as they are in other big cities. Even Ypsi or Benton Harbor Mi have more "gang rule" than Detroit.

81.55% Black or African American?

 * The racial makeup of the city is 81.55% Black or African American, 12.26% White, ...

I've never been to Detroit. But this is just too weird. -- Toytoy June 30, 2005 17:25 (UTC)


 * Seems right to me. Detroit itself is overwhelmingly African American, the suburbs predominately White. It is slowly changing a bit, fortunately. Also, there are many more Asians living in the Detroit area suburbs than even a few years ago. Fire Star 30 June 2005 17:33 (UTC)
 * Numbers are correct. Also Arabs and most Hispanics are counted by the census as "White" Rmhermen June 30, 2005 17:41 (UTC)

recent addition
Someone added this line: "Currently 47% of Detroiters cant read. Also 75% of all Detroit children are born to single unwed mothers. Detroit is 89% african american." I don't believe that the first two numbers are correct and the third is covered elsewhere. Rmhermen 18:16, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Well I found the 47% illiteracy rate although I still find it hard to believe. Also some individual hospitals have rates of unwed births even higher so that number may be true as well. I haven't found a citywide number yet though. Rmhermen 18:31, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Illiteracy rate appears to come from a 1998 US government report, The State of Literacy in America, released by the National Institute for Literacy (NIL):
 * Found a biased source which lists 72%. I will add that to the article and hope someone finds a better source. Rmhermen 18:36, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Mayor's term
Is there a reason the mayor's term is listed as "congruent to 1 modulo 4", couldn't we just say every 4 years and then give a list of the year pattern? Mbisanz 21:37, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

NPOV and police
Removed from article: "The Detroit Police Department is also one of at least twelve Police Departments in America that is predominantly African American. While this was reinforced as a means of creating a better relationship with the predominantly African American community since the 1973 election of Coleman Young, Detroit's first black mayor, little progress has been made. In 2000, the justice department had found that the Detroit PD had the highest rate of homicide against African American citizens. Social activists claimed that the only reason for a lack of public outcry and racial rioting is the racial makeup of the department, which many claim is a cameoflouge for causing justifiable homicide."

I suspect that this is partly true, partly NPOV but admit I can't understand some of it at all. Can it be cleaned up? Rmhermen 15:53, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Music
Someone keeps removing the rock artist section and replacing it with a bunch of non-notable (or minorly notable perhaps in one case) local rappers. When I was reverting I noticed Grand Funk Railroad and ? and the Mysterians were listed as Detroit artists. GFR was from Flint and ?&M were from Saginaw. I don't think they really qualify as Detroit artists. Unless someone can produce a compelling reason for keeping them in the list, I'm going to remove them.--Isotope23 17:46, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Probably because they got their start playing Harpo's, the Grande Ballroom, and many other venues within the city limits of Detroit. Ditto for Seger. OK, I'll agree ?&M probably doesn't belong here, but Seger is in the same situation as Kid Rock - he may have grown up on 32 Mile, but he broke his chops playing at places like St. Andrews in the city and there isn't anyone who doesn't identify him with Detroit. Same with Seger and Ann Arbor. Yet another reason why masny things about this article should NOT be pigeonholed into "Detroit" or "Metro Detroit" articles. The two are symbiotic and cannot be separated. 61.255.26.227 08:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Detroit's highest house numbers
How come Metropolitan Detroit have the highest house numbers? (example: 8 Mile Rd - 20700) in Northern Oakland/Maccomb county the house numbers reaches up to 40000's could you explain...


 * I'm not certain that Detroit is any different than other cities. I must confess that i have not given it any thought, but it would seem as though these high numbers are entirely unique to Detroit.  Jtmichcock 20:30, 4 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Detroit always incremented its numbers between buildings quite a bit more than in other cities, and most communities throughout the tri-county area (Birmingham, Bloomfield, Royal Oak, Ferndale, Pleasant Ridge and everything north of Pontiac are exceptions) maintain the downtown Detroit-centered numbering system all the way through. In Macomb (but not Oakland) it goes all the way to the county line (Bordman Rd., or 38 Mile) which, according to my Streets & Trips, is where 81000 Van Dyke would be. What would be next door to 2045 in, say, Baltimore would be 2047; in Detroit the house would be numbered 2053 or 2055. Most houses in the neighborhood I grew up in on the east side (7 & Gratiot) incremented in 8s, sometimes even 10s. 211.59.191.28 15:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Infrastructure / Medicine
The article says St. John's Hospital is a Level 1 trauma center. However, according to the American College of Surgeons website, Detroit Receiving Hospital and Henry Ford Hospital are the only verified trauma centers in Detroit. William Beaumont Hospital is another one in the area, but Beaumont is located in Royal Oak, not Detroit. From the St. John's Hospital website:
 * St. John Hospital and Medical Center is designated as a Trauma Center by the Detroit East Medical Control Authority, and is currently in the process of seeking verification as a Level Two Trauma Center by the American College of Surgeons.

Therefore, I am removing St. John's Hospital from the list of Level 1 trauma centers. -- Shoffman11 18:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Party Stores
I previously wrote that Chaldeans owned ninety percent of the "party stores" in detroit and someone changed this to read convenience stores and indicated party stores parenthically. A party store is not a convenience store. Detroit has plent of both and they are both immigrant owned in large part. However, a party store is a distinct animal, most of its business is in alchohol, lotto tickets and potato chips. Although one might find a quart of milk in a rear refrigerator in a party store, check the date. It may have been there a long time. Jtmichcock 00:28, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 * However, natives refer to both as "party stores." This should be annotated. 61.255.26.227 08:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

"De Troit" or "Rivière Détroit"
Bellin atlas of 1764, or 63 years after the city founding shows the river as La Rivière du Détroit. I believe that it has always been recognized that this is a river like a strait, not a strait in itself. Rmhermen 21:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Cass Tech High School
Someone wrote on the main page that Cass Tech attracts students from the suburbs. I am trying to verify this information and I can't. Does anyone have any verification? Jtmichcock 15:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Cass Tech attracted students from the suburbs when it was considered one of the finest schools in the nation. That practice ended in the 1970s when the school's prestige began to wain. I attended Cass Tech in the mid-80s and I never met one person from the suburbs or heard of it.

Auto Factory Picture
Through the National Archives, I located a photo of the Detroit Cadillac plant on Clifford. Photo believed published no late than 1910. Jtmichcock 18:57, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Fashions
I read the various revisions to the "Fashion" section of the article and I had questioned from the outset whether the entry was even noteworthy of inclusion. More specifically, Detroit doesn't seem to be particularly known for being in the cutting edge on fashions. I recall reading an article several years ago that disparaged the city's fashion sense as being behind the times. I specifically remember a derisive comment about how Detroit was the last place in North America where the "Farrah Fawcett-Majors" hair-do could be spotted.

All that said, the article seems to be hovering around making stereotypical comments. Not close enough where it should be outright deleted, but close enough to where (I believe) it would be justifiable to move the article to the Black culture of Detroit article. Any feedback? Jtmichcock 19:16, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I am not very knowledgeable about fashion in Detroit (so I don't know if the material is indeed accurate). Much of the material was added by an anon and a registered user ([Mitchelleandness or something along that line). Anyways, if you feel that the section doesn't warrant its being here, you can go ahead and move it to the appropriate place. However, it would be a good idea to place your reasonings on the talk page so that an edit war doesn't start. PentawingTalk 22:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The reference to Al Wissam jackets is local and correct but the most of the rest is pretty generic U.S. style. Rmhermen 22:54, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Fun facts added
Please add more!
 * Fun facts removed. Not only do I doubt the need for such a section - the first two facts I checked were cut-and-pasted off another website. This is a copyright violation. Rmhermen 16:50, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I found that information in various sources, some of which were on the Web. But the information was all true and factually accurate. Two things you should know:

--First off: it is NOT in any way a copyright violation to repeat basic facts that were published elsewhere. I can, for example, say that Detroit is in Michigan even if someone else previously put that in a book somewhere.

--Second, the sources I used want (such as the Detroit Regional Chamber) want that kind information to be distributed... that's why they put it out in press releases and on Web pages aimed at the media. That's kind of the nature of press releases and similar kinds of PR.

As for the need for the section... well, some of us think interesting tidbits that reveal the unique character of a community are slighly more interesting than dry statistics. Beyond that, Detroit gets a bad rap from lots of people -- including those who post misinformation in this article on Wiki. I wanted to show that Detroit is a proud city with good things to offer -- something to counter the one-dimensional picture painted elsewhere. Please put back the section I wrote.
 * Yes, it is a copyright violation to cut-and-paste sections of someone else's work into your own. If you would like to reword these facts and reinsert them you could avoid the copyright issue but I still don't believe them necessary in an encyclopedia article and some of them reppeat content already in the article. Rmhermen 18:40, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Based on some of the "editing" that I have seen in this article in the past... I think there is another agenda here. It is, apparently, OK to wrongly state that criminal gangs "Can be seen patrolling the streets" of Detroit. But is is not allowed to correctly state that Campus Martius Park was named one of the best public squares in the nation and to link to the site where that is stated?

I had to delete the gang comment at least twice because someone who didn’t even bother to check that put it back in. But, I guess if it fits the stereotype of what a predominately African American city is like, then there is no reason to check, right? It's only positive facts that have to be deleted immediately. Sad.

Also, please check again the rules related to using press release material. Press releases are created in order to encourage people to re-publish what is in them. That is well within the bounds of "fair use." Plus, that issue only applied to a part of what I submitted. Yet you just deleted all of it. Again... I see an agenda here
 * Please note that the usage of "fair use", a U.S.-only legal custom, are not necessarily compatable with the license of a "free" international encyclopedia. We require our source material to be GFDL or public domain but greatly prefer you simply rewrite it yourself. Really we are taking about a couple sentences here. You could easily rewrite in your own words in less time than typing your comments here. Also all edits are saved in the history with the names of the editor - if you suspect a bias, it is easy to check the history to determine who is inserting it. Rmhermen 14:09, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Angeles and San Franscico do. Rmhermen 14:18, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Looking through a random sampling of large city articles, Houston, New York City, Chicago, Dallas (as well as London, Paris, Tokyo, and Beijing) do not have a trivia section. Los

And again... I implore you to look into the essential nature of what a press release is and what it is used for. The whole point is the encourage the information to be redistributed. When they are sent out via e-mail, they often contain bullet points in unformatted text to facilitate cutting and pasting.

Also: if you look at "Houston, New York City, Chicago, Dallas (as well as London, Paris, Tokyo, and Beijing)," I doubt you will see the kind of racist and untrue statements that have been allowed in the article about Detroit.

In any event, I have re-submitted that stuff to make the changes you suggested. And I deleted a bullet point that I thought repeated stuff in the food section.


 * My thoughts on this - leave it out. If you have any facts to add, try to find a place to add them in the article instead of creating a separate list. There is a trend for "trivia" sections to be removed from city articles. PentawingTalk 02:10, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I think this article needs an editor without such a blatant bias against Detroit. I jumped through your hoops and did what you asked. But you still could not overcome your resistance to pointing out the positive aspects of a largely African-American city. Cities with different demographics have different rules.
 * Note that the last edits to that section were by Pentawing, not Rmhermen. Rmhermen 19:01, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Please find an editor who is not anti-Detroit and who knows something about the city.


 * How about you? But I think you need to consider the nature of this project.  The purpose of Wikipedia is to provide a neutral point of view.  It's not a question of being pro- or anti- any topic, it's all supposed to be objective and professional.  "Fun facts" are for tourist brouchures.  I would note that vandals have come onto the page and added blatantly racist materials and these have been quickly deleted by the same people in this discussion.  As to the positive aspects of the city, there are quite a few listed.  There are also quite a few negatives.  Jtmichcock 23:06, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Userbox
There is a user box available for your use shown at right.

Add the following to your user page if you'd like to:

Insane Clown Posse
For some reason, everytime this (notable) group gets added under the Music category, someone deletes it. I realize that Eminem and the Posse don't like each other, but that's certainly no justification to keep removing its name. Jtmichcock 01:47, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Note posted on my talk page:
 * "Insane Clown Posse is originally from Wayne, Michigan. this is why I have changed the page because at their concerts they refer to themselves as Michigan not one of its members is from the city of Detroit except for Esham who recently left the group and Twistid is from Rochester Hills, Michigan. Mitchellandness1 08:23, 8 Feburary 2006 (UTC)"

Rmhermen 13:47, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Since Wayne, Michigan nearly borders Detroit and, as the person leaving the message concedes, a founding member is from Detroit, then I think this is a distinction without a difference. ICP arose after playing clubs throughout metro Detroit. They are just as much a "Detroit" group as the other acts listed. Jtmichcock 15:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Klan Mayor?

 * http://www.genealogyimagesofhistory.com/ku-kz.htm
 * http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/clarence_darrow/10.html
 * please explain? Rmhermen 15:44, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The article seems to indicate that the klan supported a candidate fro mayor and the person lost. It's not surprising seeing this insofar as the klan was very popular during the era when all this happened, unlike today where it is a small fringe group or pariahs. Jtmichcock 17:08, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Much less significant than the many Midwest cities were Klan mayors (governors?) were actually elected. Rmhermen 17:49, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Actualy Charles Bowles was elected http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=7007479&pt=Charles%20Bowles 132.241.245.49 05:55, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, he served for 6 months, five years after the trial mentioned in the second link above before being recalled. Still not surprising. Rmhermen 16:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Michigan Cable TV Franchises
There has been an editor who has twice redirected the term "franchise" in the Detroit listing to an exclusive right" article. In Michigan, as a matter of law, a municipality may not grant an exclusive right to any cable television provider, MCLA 484.3108, so the link inserted is incorrect.  I have asked the editor to restore this back the original term since there is no Wikipedia article on non-excluve franchises and this will have to be sent to a disambiguation page until that article is authored.  Jtmichcock 02:34, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

http://raywert.blogspot.com/
Someone edited the Detroit Wonk site into the External links section and it was promptly edited out. I have utilized this nexus to get information and follow up on items I have submitted to this Article and others. May I propose that this link be restored? If there's no serious objections, I will reinstate after an opportunity for discussion. Jtmichcock 04:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * If you have used it for information, consider adding it as a reference instead of an external link. Rmhermen 04:16, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, that is good advice (and please link to the specific topic in the blog with a permalink if available). Also, while it is seems to be a reasonably good blog, there are undoubtedly many other deserving blogs. Why pick one over others? Put a box at the top of this talk page describing it as a resource. Or include it somewhere on WikiProject Michigan. I'd rather not see the External links section turn into a link farm. older ≠ wiser 04:27, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Looking at the Detroit Wonk site, it appears to me to be a personal blog site with a reasonable amount of advertisements (google ads). To me, the site looks like it provides very little NPOV information regarding the city of Detroit, and the only reason I see that it was added there was to promote someone's personal site. I support the removal of this site from the 'external links' section, and will continue to support it's removal if it were added in the future. Dr. Cash 06:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Trivia section issues
Someone added a "trivia" section to the article. However, such sections are generally frowned upon for city articles and as such it is preferable that the information be placed in other existing sections where possible. The following were under the trivia section:
 * Saddam Hussein was given a key to the city in 1980.
 * The White Stripes song Lafayette Blues lists many of the French street names in Detroit.

PentawingTalk 03:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC)