Talk:Dock jumping

Just startedGd8man (talk) 18:45, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

any problems??
There is a need to have the right information... Please help us get it right. gd8man 22:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)gd8man 22:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

there is a wealth of information out there about the history of dock jumping, which dates back to around 1938, just have to have people add it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtallen2489 (talk • contribs) 22:04, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Trying to add a link to the K9 Athletes Blog and the Purina Incredible Dog Challenge, but it's not working. Both sites are relevant to the sport. Please help. Jillianmk (talk) 15:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

For one, I think links to blogs are not allowed, two, IDC is an Invitation only. Plus do a search on IDC site for "Dock Jumping" nothing there. This is about Dock Jumping.gd8man 17:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gd8man (talk •gd8man 18:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Adding references
See Citing sources for information, and Template:Citation or Template:Cite web for an easier way to add references, and also WP:Verifiability (All material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable, published source). HTH --Hafwyn (talk) 13:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Metric conversions
I messed up the wikilink in my edit summary. The correct link to the guideline on units of measurement conversions is WP:MOS. Coaster1983 (talk) 04:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

UAD

 * Novice   1" to 9'11"
 * Junior  10' to 14'11"
 * Senior  15' to 19' 11"
 * Master  20' to 22'5"
 * Ultimate 22'6" and up!

Splash Dogs

 * Splash Class     0'1" to 9'11"
 * Junior Class    10'0" to 14'11"
 * Senior Class    15'0" to 19'11"
 * Pro Class       20'0" to 22'11"
 * Extreme Division 23'0" and above

Dock Dogs

 * Novice      1" to 9'11"
 * Junior     10' to 14'11"
 * Senior     15' to 19'11"
 * Master     20' to 22'11"
 * Elite      23' to 24'11"
 * Super Elite 25' & above

I should add all the different divisions??

Postal codes?
Abbreviation for Maryland is MD, not ML. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.101.73.32 (talk) 02:42, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I corrected, even though the cited source says ML. No state's abbreviation is ML, and it is quite certain that Baltimore is in MD. --Evb-wiki (talk) 02:51, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Lead image
I agree that the current lead image isn't fantastic. I am in the process of uploading a number of dock jumping images to Wikimedia Commons. See the dock jumping category. I would appreciate suggestions on a better image to have in the lead. --Simple Bob (talk) 08:17, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

OK, so I like the new lead image, but I fail to see why the rest of the images should be 300 pixels. WP:IMGSIZE clearly states In general, do not define the size of an image unless there is a good reason to do so - so what is your reason? --Simple Bob (talk) 17:49, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, Gd8man, you wrote "restored image size, as to the discussion on the talk page" - where does it say there's agreement here about that? Dougweller (talk) 18:03, 5 August 2010 (UTC)


 * It was discussed on my talk page because the article was just started. Would you like me to move the discussion to the Dock Jumping talk?...gd8man (talk) 00:59, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

World records

 * The world records are not only Dock Dogs. Indoors or outdoors a world record is the longest jump. gd8man (talk) 09:02, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

All the records listed are or were world recordsgd8man (talk) 09:35, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * "World record" generally implies global participation or recognition by an organisation such as Guinness World Records. Although DockDogs operates in other countries, most of the competitions are US-centric. Furthermore there seems to be some difference between the different organisations on record recognition. I therefore I feel it is less confusing to title the section as distance records rather than claim them to be world records. --Simple Bob (talk) 09:41, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not "claiming" they are records. They are or were the longest recorded jumps in the "World" at that time.

A world record is usually the best global performance ever recorded in a specific skill or sport"...gd8man (talk) 08:28, 5 August 2010 (UTC)


 * World record implies some global sanctioning body, which is not the case in a sport which has several governing bodies, most of which are US-centric. I don't see what is wrong with things the way they are presented right now i.e. as properly sourced distance records. --Simple Bob (talk) 08:31, 5 August 2010 (UT


 * I agree with Simple Bob. A world record should be recognized by an international organization. Coaster1983 (talk) 00:17, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Why would Mr. Bob edit the record again with out discussion?

Again the record he added was a purina record, the one and only organization that uses that type of measurement. What happened to the discussion? I think it is very clear that Mr. Bob is trying to teach me a lesson.gd8man (talk) 00:36, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it would be a good idea to do an Request for Comment on this issue.Coaster1983 (talk) 01:17, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm coming to the conclusion that an RFC on Gd8man's behaviour is a good idea. Thanks for the suggestion Coaster1983. As for the record I added, the July 2010 record was at the UKC Premier show in a competition run by UAD, not Purina, so measurement was done according to the same rules used by DockDogs i.e. according to where the based of the tail lands. --Simple Bob (talk) 08:02, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

This is why a discussion is needed. UAD ran the event as a qualifier for the IDC. They used the IDC rules and measurement (from the nose). Do you need additional links?.....gd8man (talk) 21:46, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Purina
Mr. Bob please stop adding without discussion on the talk page. Purnia or the IDC measure from the nose. If you have read the article Dock Jumping measures at the base of the tail, which is very different, IDC also not a fair event because of the way they eye ball measure. So why add Purina to the article?....gd8man (talk) 09:13, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? The UKC article is very clear that Purina started dock jumping in 1997 - three years before DockDogs. That is a cited fact, not something that should be removed. --Simple Bob (talk) 17:46, 5 August 2010 (UTC)


 * It is not up to us to decide what is fair, we just report what reliable sources -- see WP:RS for our criteria -- say about a subject. Dougweller (talk) 17:54, 5 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Again this editor is exhibiting WP:OWN. Perhaps a short wikiholiday to reflect on his/her actions would be appropriate. Then the rest of us can get on with improving the article.... --Simple Bob (talk) 17:56, 5 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I hope that won't be necessary. Dougweller (talk) 18:40, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

All I am asking for the (10) tenth time is please discuss changes on the talk page. But instead you would rather me have a wikiholiday instead of taking more of your time to respond. Oh before I forget nice job on the lists....gd8man (talk) 22:06, 5 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry about the wikiholiday jibe. So what specific changes do you want me to discuss? Mostly I'm adding well-sourced content to the article from reliable third party sources i.e. not from the various organisations which are involved in the sport - although sometimes using these sources will be necessary. I also think it is important to clarify and explain differences in approach where they exist. --Simple Bob (talk) 22:13, 5 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Why do people think because they saw a statement on a web site it is fact? When in fact they say what they want because it is their web site. My point is; because you took a statement from the UKC web site as fact (IDC was started in 1997). When in "fact" it started in 1998. http://www.purina.com/general/idcfaq.aspx

again you MR. BOB changed the article without discussion.Oh... that was my (2) seconded point.......gd8man (talk) 23:08, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess what you are saying is that you are an super editor and you can make many edits to an article that you want without discussion, but if someone disputes you to keep it the way it was,you tell them to take a hike.gd8man (talk) 23:20, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I would prefer a third party, Reliable source to determine when Dock Jumping started. The Purina and UKC websites are primary sources that should be avoided as much as possible.Coaster1983 (talk) 23:37, 5 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree you are right, that is the reason it should be deleted.

I have been unsucessful in finding a reliable third party source. to quote for the history. But also as far as the IDC being included in dock jumping, they call it "Dock Diving", it is an invation only event (not open to the public). They measure differently,they should have their own classifaction.....gd8man (talk) 00:11, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not see how IDC is different enough to keep it out of the article. The differences you describe are relatively minor in an overview article on the subject. Especially an article that nowhere near the point where we would have to start summarizing sections. I think its better to include the IDC and explain its measurement system. Coaster1983 (talk) 01:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

You have a valid point. Isn't it confusing to a viewer to see a very different record? A record that has no way to backup that claim? As in a digital recording. To understand my point; take a large dog (5 feet long) and a small dog (2 feet long),with everything the same except the type of measurement (nose or tail) jumping the same distant for round numbers,they jump 10 feet.(measured from base of tail).Then take that same jump... measure from the nose..small dog (2 feet long) is measured at 12 feet...the large dog (5 feet long) is measured at 15 feet and you say there is only a small difference? Does that make sense? When they measure the long jump at track meets it is measured at the closest to the mark (jumping point) same as Dock Jumping. But Dock Diving is measured from the nose....not the same.gd8man (talk) 01:38, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I understand exactly the difference between the two ways of measuring jump distance and that is why it is explained twice in the article - especially in the records section. What I don't understand is why you want to censor/remove all mention of Purina from the article. What do you have against Purina? --Simple Bob (talk) 07:59, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

What is Dash 'n' Splash
Why include it in the article?gd8man (talk) 04:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I have included Dash 'n' Splash because it is an active dock jumping organisation in the UK. Wikipedia is a global resource, not just for US-based editors. The history section shows how the sport has been established and evolved in various countries. Right now we don't have a global view - just the US and UK - so I'd like to add even more about other dock jumping organisations and competitions worldwide. --Simple Bob (talk) 07:52, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * that is a great idea to add valid active dock jumping organistions.

But before you do please prove they are and not just a one time event.gd8man (talk) 20:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Did you read the reference? I'm guessing not if you are asking a question like that. --Simple Bob (talk) 20:24, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Well thank you for bringing it to my attention I stand corrected.

I have been involved in the sport for over 7 years and is the first I have heard of them.If you would have included their web site as a reference this could have been avoided....gd8man (talk) 21:25, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * So that's where primary and secondary sources come into it. I avoided the Dash 'n' Splash website (a primary source) preferring instead to reference newspaper articles about the organisation (a secondary source). Or at least that's how I interpret it - it's always better to quote sources writing about an organisation rather than quote the organisation directly. See WP:PSTS. --Simple Bob (talk) 21:28, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I guess what I meant is if you would have posted (the web link) here before you added them, could have saved a misunderstanding....gd8man (talk) 21:37, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Google/Bing/Yahoo/dmoz is your friend. --Simple Bob (talk) 09:25, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Jetty Dogs is Dock Dogs
Why not include the other organizations that Mr. Bob deleted, also can you produce a event list?...gd8man (talk) 04:08, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I did not delete any organisations. It was Active Banana who deleted the list of external links. I have added organisations - most notably Purina and the two UK organisations. I wasn't aware that Dock Dogs and Jetty Dogs is the same organisation. Can you provide sources for this? --Simple Bob (talk) 07:49, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Why should I have to provide sources when you Mr. Bob added Jetty Dogs? Shouldn't you provide reliable sources to have added Jetty Dogs? I guess you are to busy to do a simple search. (hint); try searching the Dock Dogs site. I am removing Jetty Dogs...gd8man (talk) 20:24, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Once again I refer the honourable lady/gentleman to the posted reference. Did you read it? The Daily Mail is one of the largest selling newspapers in the UK and the article is about Jetty Dogs not Dock Dogs. I can't see anything which says Dock Dogs and Jetty Dogs are the same organisation. --Simple Bob (talk) 20:28, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I see you have deleted the section without waiting for my response and without acknowledging my point about the validity of the reference. I am not going to revert your change because I do not want to fall foul of WP:3RR (suggest you read that b.t.w.) but I hope you will consider the error of your ways and reinstate it. --Simple Bob (talk) 20:35, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Here I will do the work for you...http://www.dockdogs.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=460&Itemid=273 You didn't have a problem with making many many edits with no discussion......gd8man (talk) 20:58, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Gd8man, you should have added something saying that JettyDogs is the UK name for DockDogs, not removed the material about JettyDogs in the UK. I've done that now. And knock off the personal comments. Dougweller (talk) 05:26, 7 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Well it appears that Jetty Dogs is no longer. There hasn't been a Jetty Dogs event in over 2 years. There is no web site, no events. Are you in the habit of adding non existing groups? Please do more reasearch.gd8man (talk) 06:15, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Regardless of if they currently exist, if they did at one point in time and are notable to the subject, then they should be mentioned. And it cannot be said that they no longer exist without a source that states so anyways. We must presume they do still exist. Silver  seren C 06:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It shouldn't have been added in the first place.If you did better reasearch you would see that Dock Dogs dropped the name and are holding the events under Dock Dogs. So you are saying that each and every dog jumping group that had an event should be added? ....gd8man (talk) 06:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

You are saying it is notable? There were 2 events 3 years ago, they don't have events under that name. What about all the other jump groups that have 100's of events are they "notable"? As far as We must presume they do still exist I thought this is about the truth...gd8man (talk) 07:28, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Truth? So you are saying that UK newspapers lie? The reference given is clear - Jetty Dogs was used as a name in 2007. Do two things as you have been recommended - find a source which says Jetty Dogs is no longer used as a name and find another source which shows that Dock Dogs is still operational in the UK. --Simple Bob (talk) 07:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
 * One article doesn't make it notable.

here are your sources http://www.advertiser24.co.uk/content/advertiser24/news/story.aspx?brand=NOROnline&category=News&tBrand=NOROnline&tCategory=News&itemid=NOED01%20Aug%202010%2019%3A38%3A18%3A113 http://www.ukgamefair.co.uk/directory/exhibitors-and-attractions http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives/411/new-dock-dogs-canine-competition-event-to-be-showcased-at-game-fair/ Now can we exclude it?...gd8man (talk) 07:50, 8 August 2010 (UTC)


 * You can't exclude it but you can add value to the article by writing that Jetty Dogs is now Operating as Dock Dogs in the UK, albeit sporadically. --Simple Bob (talk) 07:56, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You don't get it Jetty Dogs is not operating, Dock Dogs are operating as Dock Dogs UK......gd8man (talk) 08:09, 8 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Once again, if you have a source for that we can use, add it to the article. Jetty Dogs did operate so that shouldn't be removed. The history of dock jumping in the UK shouldn't be removed - after all, it goes back how long? 30 years? Dougweller (talk) 14:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)


 * So Mr. Dougweller all for not....this article has become rather ...Bland    gd8man (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 10:00, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Dock diving
Is simply an alternate name for this sport. Although this is not a RS, it shows how it is actually used in the dog world. This is over 700 mentions of dock diving on dockdogs.com. This is about 200 mentions on splashdog.com. I don't understand why this could be an issue, and I am adding it to the lead - it's already a redirect. Dougweller (talk) 09:33, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Dock Diving is a registered trademark with Dock Dogs. Do you have their permission to use it? Or do you just make edits without discussion?

http://media.zibb.com/trademark/dock+diving/30967915

http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=78919590 gd8man (talk) 21:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia does not need the owner's permission to use a registered trademark in an article. We can write about Hoovers, Marmite and Sharpies to our hearts content. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:20, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment,OK. This is all I have been asking for is to have discussion......gd8man (talk) 21:29, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I can reassure you that just mentioning a trademarked name is not an issue. It could be an issue for someone who wanted to hold a dogs-jumping-in-water event, and called it Dock Diving, because that could be trademark infringement, but it would take a court of law to sort that out. In the meantime, it's not prosecutable to call your Dyson a Hoover.  If you know the term has been trademarked (ie if you have a source) the article could mention that. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:17, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

"Dock Diving" is a registered trademark of DockDogs,Inc. and DockDogs USA Here's the link to the US Government trademark search data:  http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4008:1u1qo9.2.1  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.32.189.129 (talk) 06:47, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * But as has been stated above, that doesn't mean we can't use the term in the article. Trademarked words are in terms of commercial gain and use in the same field with that term. Mentioning it in an encyclopedia article has nothing to do with that. Silver  seren C 07:00, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Additional Sources
Would this source from Pedigree Pups about Dock Jumping be useful as a citation in the article?

There's also this article that discusses how it was first officially recognized at ESPN's "Great Outdoor Games Big Air" competition in 2000. Silver seren C 20:59, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The first one isn't so good because it is a shop selling dog stuff, but the newspaper article looks to be very useful. --Simple Bob (talk) 21:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, I used the newspaper. Thanks again, it allowed me to replace an inferior source. --Simple Bob (talk) 21:20, 6 August 2010 (UTC)