Talk:Doping at the Tour de France

Untitled
I think this article should be tagged for cleanup. This article kind of strays from NPOV on occasions, and the article could certainly do with more references, such as the last paragraph on average speed increasing disproportionally to technological growth. It would be better to split this article into separate sections as well. I will start cleaning up this article soon if no reply is given. Sanbuster 05:43, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
I will start doing some clean up in my sandbox here to make things simpler for me. Otherwise any specific suggestions, such as how to split up the article, are welcome.-- Joe  Jklin  (  T   C  )  20:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Great, i'll just add to the section on Landis and this article should be done (for now, anyways)... Sanbuster 11:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Status of Jersey Winners Table
This table smells strongly of original research. "Strong accusations" is not clearly defined and there are no sources provided. Especially questionable is putting Lance Armstrong in the medium category, considering that he has been tested numerously, falsely accused on several occasions, and has never failed to prove his complete innocence on all doping charges.

The media has reported on the accusations that have been made against him, which could be cited as sources, but they have also reported on how each accusation has proven to be baseless. Wikipedia is not the place for unverifiable personal accusations or original research, so I will change the "medium" listings to "clean" for all riders. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)
 * I agree, and as it concerns living people, WP:BLP applies. As it is not sourced, I'm removing it. SeveroTC 21:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I forgot WP:BLP... And I agree that it was too subjective. "Strong accusations" was not defined and sources were absent. So don't see this as an effort to get the table back. But I am surprised that you think it is "Especially questionable" that Armstrong was in the medium category! Questionable I agree, but "Especially questionable"? As if Armstrong is cleaner than the rest of the cyclists? Personal opinion: I am willing to bet that within 25 years, Armstrong admits that he has taken some doping once. (Just like 95% of all the cyclists.) Armstrong is in the top10 of best cyclists ever, but not in the top10 of cyclists that are most probably clean! But this is irrelevant.--Pie.er 14:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Petacchi
In the part of the article about Petacchi's positive drug test it says that (cleared after the result was deemed "non-negative"). Non-negative means that FAILED the test. He was cleared because the drug (which he has a certificate to use) was deemed to be for 'therapeutic purposes.' All of this information is in the BBC article cited. I will add this information in the next day or two if no one else does or if someone has a reason not to add it.

Ender8282 03:33, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How about because it wasn't at the TdF? I think it belongs in Doping at the 2007 Tour de France, but not here. SeveroTC 00:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You could use almost the same argument for not having the information in Doping at the 2007 Tour de France. It didn't happen at the 2007 TdF.  Then information in the 2007 Tdf doping article is much better so I am going to copy and paste that information now and we can continue the discussion on whether it should be here at all. --Ender8282 01:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This article should summarise the 2007 article (and others, when someone is in the mood to do a 1998 page for example). For my money, it's important enough to be in the 2007 article, but not in this one. SeveroTC 01:11, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Alberto Contador
To my knowledge Contador has never been cleared from all allegations as he is categorized on this page. Documents describing his involvement in the Puerto Files, has merely been dismissed and ignored by Spanish authorities. His case has not been fully explored, and so to say 'closed'.

His name is present in confiscated files and and bags containing tampered with blood with the initials 'AC' has been confiscated.

2007 Tour Summary
It seems the section on the 2007 Tour is getting a little too big. Rather than blank the section and leave a link to the main article, I still think it needs a concise summary - though perhaps not referencing all riders/allegations. Thoughts? Dick G 00:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

"doping" or "illegal performance enhancements"?
Just stopped by here while helping one of my students write a paper on this subject. You all have put together a well-documented page (just skimmed it, so I can’t comment on Sanbuster’s NPOV comment), but I do have one suggestion: “doping” seems to me a slanted word; it connotes drug use in the ‘getting high’ street sense of the term (“any narcotic or narcotic-like drug taken to induce euphoria or satisfy addiction”). While it can mean the use of any illicit substance (regardless of intent), why not call it what it is in this case: “illegal performance enhancement”? "Doping," besides being a bit misleading, slanted, and potentially POV, simply isn’t specific enough to carry encyclopedic merit.

These cyclists aren’t shooting up heroin because they’re bored or addicted, they’re taking performance enhancers because they want to perform better. Both illegal, both immoral, but still a big semantic difference. Richard Paez, University of Florida English Department, 24.136.34.159 15:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for stopping by. You make an interesting point and I appreciate "doping" has all sorts of connotations linked, among other things, to its long history of usage. However in this context - namely professional cycling - it has been the adopted term for several years, regardless of whether it is "correct" or suggests POV. Perhaps the most obvious difficulty is that it is used as a global term, applied both to the introduction of a narcotic or other substance into the body and also to the blood transfusion aspect. I'll take a look at the article and see where we can neutralise any slant but there comes a point when a practice or activity is so widely regarded as immoral or simply negative that prima facie POV ends up being mere fact. Dick G 05:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * You are right: I've looked around (and my student has been conducting research) and it seems that the term has been adopted by the people involved - a sad mangling of the language, but that's only my opinion and has no bearing here. Convention and use always override prescription. Thanks for the polite response! Richard Paez Richardpaez 21:37, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we should try and be specific about the drug or process used - for example, Zabel and Riis both admitted to using EPO, whereas Vinokourov was found to have had a homologous blood transfusion. kju 05:55, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * That's probably the best approach but is fiddly in this article, let alone the 2007 article which doubtless needs the same work. My only reservation is that in trying to be more specific the phrasing becomes more cumbersome. I guess I'm really encouraging you to be bold where I'm unashamedly shying away from doing the edit work myself! Thanks Dick G 07:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Copy won't paste
Hi Can anyone help? In the "Steroids and other drugs" section, I am trying to paste copy after the words "without strengtheners".

For some reason, when I try, only the last words come out, which is tricky because it says that drugs ruined van den Broucke's health, which so far as I know isn't true.

In the displayed version, the final line about the ruined health should come out and this whole new paragraph added:

De Mondenard argued that such was the acceptance of steroids and then of corticoïds that only the cost - which he put in prices of the time as between 35,000 and 50,000 French francs - was likely to restrict use. Only the richest or the most ambitious riders could afford that. And the rewards could be high: Bernard Thévenet won two Tours de France by using cortisone. "I was doped with cortisone for three years and there were many like me," he said. The experience had ruined his health, he said.

Is there someone who can make it work, please? Thanks. 77.194.246.214 (talk) 13:54, 11 December 2007 (UTC)les woodland
 * The problem was that some references weren't closed(and some lines of text were considered a reference). You can see what I changed to understand what I mean. Footnotes could also be useful --Drunt (talk) 15:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you a lot. What would I do without you? - les —Preceding unsigned comment added by Les woodland (talk • contribs) 16:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Armstrong dope.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:26, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Miguel Indurain
"1991-1995 Miguel Indurain Tested positive Tested positive for salbutamol in 1994, which was not yet forbidden by UCI.[72] Connections with doping-doctor Conconi[73]"
 * The headline in the box at the bottom claims that Indurain "tested positive" but then readily admits that the drug he took was not forbidden by the UCI, which means it was legal. I understand that the article isn't necessarily about illegal doping but doping in general, but you can't blame someone for acting within the rules, and thus I see no reason why he can't be listed as "Clean." Obviously other riders who have the word "clean" by their name took some drug or vitamin or herbal mixture that might one day be banned by the UCI, in such a case would we have to change their status from clean to "tested positive?" Please get back to me on this one, as I would be eager to change his status or the wording of his status to make sure that we are not accusing him of a non-crime.
 * secondly, I think we have to look closer at the "connections with doping-doctor" label for anyone who has not tested positive. I just don't feel that having a relationship with a doping doctor without hard evidence of drug use should be enough to qualify an allegation. I am among those who feel that the entire pelaton could be convicted by the UCI if only the program were tougher, but in the mean time it is unjust to post allegations that show no actual proof of wrongdoing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrathel (talk • contribs) 16:53, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Status of Tour de France winners (Landis/Pereiro)
Hi - I can't tell if the comments in the 'details' section of the table for the 2006 entry are meant to refer to Landis or Pereiro. " Oscar Pereiro named as winner in default - Clean but cleared after testing positive for salbutamol. In 2010 admitted to taking EPO, testosterone, human growth hormone and blood transfusions along with female hormones and insulin" I presume that "Clean but cleared after testing positive for salbutamol" refers to Pereiro and "In 2010 admitted to taking EPO, testosterone, human growth hormone and blood transfusions along with female hormones and insulin" refers to Landis. Is that the case? --Pretty Green (talk) 13:19, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Doping History of Tour Top 10 finishers
I had originally created this compilation in my sandbox: sandbox and proposed to create an article under [|project cycling].

Someone apparently went ahead and copied an (old) version of the compilation from my sandbox into this article, without asking or notifying me. I am going to merge the different versions, although I believe it would have been better to wait for the project cycling decision. TSawala (talk) 14:15, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

About this section: I'm curious: did Alex Zülle really not get suspended for his confession of using EPO? I was pretty sure he did, but he turns up with a green colour and not with a yellow one. I should look at the magazines lying at my parents' place - which I don't have with me, though, to be sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.202.64.170 (talk) 23:17, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Status of Tour de France winners
Is there any particular reason why the 2013 winner is listed as "Not yet tested positive" while others are listed as "Never tested positive"? If it is an assumption of guilt, I feel that breaks NPOV although if he is scheduled to fail a future drugs test, I withdraw my objections :) 31.52.124.28 (talk) 21:05, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Willy Voet
The title of the book Willy Voet wrote was originally "Prikken en Slikken" (in Dutch) It was translated in French as "Massacre à la chaîne" and in English as "Breaking the Chain". But the Dutch one was the original and first version. 91.180.115.64 (talk) 19:19, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Poor intro
To have a subjective quote from 1998 from a single person in the intro is highly inappropriate. It is out of date, very likely misleading in 2014 and looks like it is an authoritative statement of fact when it is an opinion (omission of quotation marks makes it more misleading). Even if it was literally true at the time, it does not merit its place in an article which should bring people up to date. This quote may have a place in the article as part of the historical narrative, but certainly not in the introduction, which needs to be factual. Elroch (talk) 00:32, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree 100%. I went directly to the talk page after reading the introduction to see if anyone else mentioned this. The paragraphs frame the subject in a way that makes light of the problem, as if to shrug one's shoulders, and remark c'est la vie. Curiocurio (talk) 23:17, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

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