Talk:Dundee

Gerry Quinn and Radio Tay
Is there any proof to the claim that Gerry Quinn was one of the original presenters on Radio Tay? - Meursault's adviser, 14.34, 25/01/2009
 * Apparently so. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 19:18, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Removed from article as unencyclopedic. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 13:05, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Marmalade still being made in Dundee
The article states that Mackays still make marmalade in Dundee. This is incorrect, despite there being a reference to back up the statement. Mackays factory is in Arbroath, where they moved from Carnoustie a couple of years ago. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 12:48, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Removed as inaccurate.Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 13:07, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

History started with Picts in Iron Age (?)
The first recorded mention of a people called "Picts" is 297 AD. The earliest evidence of inhabitation of Dundee is considerably older than that. Archaeology from the Law hill points to human activity around 500 BC. The Balgarthno stones are older still at around 1500 BC, and bronze age burials have been found in the area, eg. at Stannergate.

See for example:

http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/PSAS_2002/pdf/vol_013/13_303_315.pdf

Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 13:03, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Edited accordingly. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 13:08, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

De facto suburbs
The assertion that Monifieth and Invergowrie are de facto suburbs is partisan, represents only one side of the argument (which centres on Council Tax revenue), and is against Wikipedia NPOV guidelines

See for example:

http://news.scotsman.com/politicalboundaryreview/Councils-plot-revolt-over-redraw.2603731.jp

Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 13:26, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, the lede claims that Dundee lost suburbs to the surrounding counties when the boundaries were changed in the 1970s and 1980s. This is incorrect. Invergowrie and Monifieth were historically parts of Perthshire and Angus and were brought under control of the City of Dundee following the Local Government (Scotland) act 1973. They were returned to their former state in 1996. --Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 16:44, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, must admit that I would have thought of these places as dormitory towns rather than suburbs. Even the likes of Carnoustie, Arbroath, Meigle and the other small Angus towns could be said to fall into that category since many of them have a very high percentage of commuters. -- Derek Ross | Talk'' 18:23, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It's a controversial topic, and one that someone felt strongly enough about to include in the article. Rather than delete it, I think it could be included, given a more neutral slant. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 12:59, 2 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I've written about the boundary changes in the Local Government section, which should redress the neutrality issue. The statement about Dundee's population dropping from its early 1970s maximum due to suburb loss remains, but seems untenable. Current boundaries are much the same as they were in the early 1970s. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 14:05, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Mishmash of redevelopment and neglect
This doesn't appear to be a very objective statment. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 13:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Removed as per NPOV. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 13:06, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Half of Dundee's in the Watch, the other half's in the Navy
Is this really a popular expression? It'll need citation. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 16:03, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Removed. Unsourced. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 13:09, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Child poverty 96% in Whitfield
That figure comes from a report published 7 years ago by Save the Children. It was criticised back then for using out of date figures (the figure relates specifically to the Whitfield South Ward, which hadn't existed then for four years.) So the figures are likely to be more than 10 years out of date. Is there nothing more current? --Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 16:19, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Removed.Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 13:08, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Modern day economy
Much of this section is out of date, and could be improved by reference to the latest economic profile report:

http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/dundeecity/uploaded_publications/publication_119.pdf

Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 11:56, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Featured Again?
Does anyone else share my views that Dundee should be made into a featured article again? I am willing to help out with anything. Andrewmc123 (talk) 12:02, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * GA is a more realistic aim for now. The article was never of a standard that would currently be awarded FA, so I wouldn't pay too much attention to the former FA status. There's a list of jobs to do at the top of the page, but it hasn't attracted much interest so far. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 12:32, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

History Section
i'm looking to reduce the size of the history section on the Dundee page and re-locate a lot of info onto the History of Dundee page. i would like to do this to help reduce the size of the entire article which currently stands at 85. eventually, i may look at creating a landmarks section (sadly, i don't have any info on Galdyne's Land, Dundee's oldest house but hopefully i will get around this). Kilnburn (talk) 15:44, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * That would be a shame... The Dundee history article is awful. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 16:08, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

yeah, i had a look too. thing is, the history section "needs" to be cut down to improve the flow of the general article. i would like to do my bit to help the article (try to) achieve GA status. anyway, the neglected History of Dundee page would improve. Kilnburn (talk) 16:23, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * It is slightly too large for this article, I agree. I'll edit the material into History of Dundee, then it can be summarised for this page. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 10:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

tell you what, i'll do a bit, then let you finish the rest. Kilnburn (talk) 12:24, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

right just to keep you updated. i have done a bit of work on the Dundee history section and the size of the article has now been reduced down to 80. if you need any help in the meantime on any other articles you're currently working on, let me know. Kilnburn (talk) 13:32, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

decided to create the landmarks section since enough of the history section has been cut down already. a bit of info about Gladyne's Land has been added to get it started. Kilnburn (talk) 20:02, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm going to pare down the history section further to keep it as a summary... no point in duplicating information in detail. I'll have a think about other landmarks that can be added.Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 21:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

that's fine. when there is enough info in the landmarks, i will submit those picture(s) of Gladyne's Land (Merchant's House) and/or St Mary's Tower, Old Steeple Church. i'll leave it to you now. Kilnburn (talk) 09:40, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Landmarks
I've come up with a few... I need to think about churches and shopping centres, etc.
 * Claypotts Castle
 * Wishart Arch
 * Powrie Castle
 * Mains Castle
 * Dudhope Castle


 * Gardynes Land
 * Verdant Works
 * The Howff
 * McManus Galleries
 * Cox's Stack
 * Law Hill War Memorial
 * Black Watch Memorial

Thoughts? Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 11:44, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

you're on the right tracks. i would also add Camperdown House and Dundee's "city churches" to the list. Kilnburn (talk) 10:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Here's the listings for those, plus the two cathedrals:


 * Camperdown House
 * St Pauls Cathedral
 * St Andrews Cathedral
 * St Clements(City Churches)
 * St Mary's (city churches)
 * Old St Pauls and St Davids (City Churches)
 * St Mary's Tower (part of city churches

Virtually every church in the city has listed status (about 80 of them), so it's not possible to include all of them. Perhaps add all the Category A listed buildings? Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 13:46, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd also imagine that the two bridges, the High School, Morgan Academy, the Discovery and the Unicorn ought to be in there somewhere. How about the Market cross and the statue of Desperate Dan?

There are some good photos on Geograph that can be easily incorporated:

http://www.geograph.org.uk/browse.php?p=657354

Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 14:03, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Here's a few potential photos:







only mention the three churches in the city centre. i would mention the two bridges, Camperdown House, Claypotts Castle, Dundee Law, Wishart Arch, Cox's Stack and Verdant works in the section. 80.192.52.199 (talk) 01:41, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry I don't know how best to edit this page, but there are a couple of mentions of "Gladyne's Land" This should surely read "Gardyne's Land". I would be grateful if someone could sort it out. Thanks 81.137.24.213 (talk) 11:44, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

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List of tasks for completion before GA review
Need to check the article in general conforms to WP:UKTOWNS.

Section by section:


 * Lead to be updated immediately prior to GA review
 * History In fairly good shape. Kilburn will add info on the Dundee Waterfront project
 * Actually in worse shape than I thought... I'm currently updating the section to remove unreliable sources and for accuracy and relevance. Catfish Jim   &#38; the soapdish  14:28, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Almost there...  Catfish Jim  &#38; the soapdish  17:44, 14 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Governance In fairly good shape. Kilnburn to add reference for city chambers
 * Geography Needs expansion, correction and references. Catfish Jim   &#38; the soapdish  to complete
 * Almost there  Catfish Jim  &#38; the soapdish  17:44, 14 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Demography Completed Kilnburn has added infobox with a paragraph on population and employment figures
 * Economy In good shape, needs a paragraph on the jute, jam and journalism industries.
 * Landmarks Little more than a couple of sentences. Kilnburn will work on this.
 * Transport Catfish Jim   &#38; the soapdish  working on at present
 * Education Comments?
 * Religious sites Was in okay shape a couple of years ago... references need checked and section needs to be checked for obvious ommissions
 * Culture Not bad shape. References need to be added
 * Sports Comments?
 * Public services Comments?
 * Twin cities Consistent with other articles
 * See also Comments?
 * References Needs checking for consistent style. Perhaps go for Template:Harvnb style as in Carnoustie?
 * External links Comments?
 * Need to check it conforms with External links Catfish Jim   &#38; the soapdish  12:15, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Catfish Jim  &#38; the soapdish  12:06, 18 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Currently we appear to be missing a notable people section. Catfish Jim   &#38; the soapdish  12:19, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Any thoughts on this? For reasons of space, we might want to constrain selection to a few particularly notable individuals. Obvious examples might include:
 * Hector Boece, 16th century historian and philosopher. Author of History of the Scottish People.
 * D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson, pioneering mathematical biologist and first Professor of Biology at University College, Dundee (later Dundee University)
 * Patrick Geddes, first Professor of Botany at University College, Dundee. Pioneer of ecologically and culturally based town planning.
 * Adam Duncan, 1st Viscount Duncan
 * Winston Churchill
 * Mary Shelley
 * Mary Slessor
 * William McGonagall
 * Catfish Jim  &#38; the soapdish  12:48, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Infobox photo collage
I really like the design of this, and like most of the photos that have been chosen as they say something about Dundee... all except the bandstand. Any suggestions for a replacement for that specific photo? Something jute related? Verdant works?  Catfish Jim  &#38; the soapdish  17:48, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Images
I've removed the image of Gardyne's Land in the Landmarks section. The images used in this section illustrate it better, and overuse of images is discouraged on Wikipedia as per Manual of Style/Images, particularly when it leads to text being squeezed between two images. Detailed coverage of this building has been moved to Gardyne's Land, Dundee.  Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  08:27, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Media
We're lacking a radiostation - Bridge FM. http://www.facebook.com/bridgefmdundee 95.72.147.240 (talk) 16:25, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

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High School of Dundee
I felt it was unfair to say 'Early students included Thomas Thomson and Hector Boece, as well as the brothers James, John and Robert Wedderburn who were the authors of The Gude and Godlie Ballatis, used early in the Scottish Reformation as a vehicle to spread Protestant theology'. The School was founded in the 13th century, but Thomson would have attended over 500 years later, so I think calling him an early student is a stretch. Even Boece and the Wedderburns would not have been pupils in the first 200 years of the School's existence! Therefore I have amended the text. Dunarc (talk) 19:38, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

'View from The Law' image
I wonder if it is worth noting in the caption that the view seen in this image is now a bit out of date (eg Tayside House is rather prominent in it and some other buildings have been demolished as part of the waterfront works). Dunarc (talk) 19:41, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Churchill
Would the statement 'Winston Churchill served as one of two MPs for Dundee from 1908 to 1922' not be better in the History section rather than the Governance one. The rest of the content of the Governance all relates to more recent events. Dunarc (talk) 23:38, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

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 * VADundeeAug17-KK666.png

Notable people section
I have two issues with this

1) I am wondering if it is necessary given that there is a much more comprehensive list at History_of_Dundee. Would it not just be easier to say "For notable people associated with Dundee see" and link to the relevant part of the History of Dundee article. 2) Those included on the list seem to be rather arbitrarily chosen. For instance in terms of politics George Galloway is here, but not Bruce Millan who held cabinet office and was a European Commissioner, or Stewart Hosie who was deputy leader of the SNP. Ken Hyder is included, but not the probably better known Ricky Ross. There are no notable sportspeople such as David Narey, Alasdair Dickinson or Liz McColgan and few academics despite the likes of Alfred Ewing being born and working in Dundee and James Ivory (mathematician) being born in the city. Lorraine Kelly is included, but she only lived in the city for a period, and was not born in Dundee. Thus I am not sure that this is really a useful section as it stands.

Dunarc (talk) 22:44, 2 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Absolutely. That was the intention when that section was first moved there.  Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  14:22, 3 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I've merged the two lists at History of Dundee. Shocking that Lorraine Kelly wasn't there.  Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  14:30, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for sorting this. Dunarc (talk) 19:30, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

See also section
I am not sure that this section (as it stands at the moment) is a terribly useful one. The three articles linked to here, while all with obvious Dundee connections, seem a little random choices. Also Dundee Museum of Transport has now been open to the public for well over 5 years, so I think it is a bit odd to still describe it here as being "new" (and since the opening of V&A Dundee it is not even the newest museum in the city!).Dunarc (talk) 20:54, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Name in Scots Gaelic
Dùn Dèagh or Dùn Dè? Even the Scots can't agree. . WQUlrich (talk) 10:39, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

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Languages
it is a given that a town in Scotland is going to speak some combination of English and Scots. Adding this information to an already cluttered infobox provides absolutely no benefit to the reader. Are we going to go through every article on every place in the English-speaking world and note that they speak English, just in case the reader was wondering?

I also challenge the wisdom of duplicating the name "Dundee" at the start of the article. Listing a separate Scots name might make sense in the case of Glasgow/Glesca or Falkirk/Fawkirk, but when the town has a single name that's used both locally and officially, it just creates even more clutter. Zacwill (talk) 10:30, 1 October 2022 (UTC)


 * I had a look through the articles for other Scottish cities and they list languages spoken and give the Scots version of the name even if it has the same spelling as the English one. The presentation of the Scots version does vary, for example Edinburgh gives the spelling "Edinburgh" once but then has the pronunciations in English and Scots following it, that might be a reasonable approach?
 * It'd seem a bad idea to change the Dundee article to be out of sync with the others by only removing this content from it, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scotland might be a good place to discuss it if you feel they should all be changed? JaggedHamster (talk) 12:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC)


 * There is no "Scots version" of the name. Whether one speaks English or Scots, the name is "Dundee", pronounced /dʌn'diː/. Zacwill (talk) 15:48, 2 October 2022 (UTC)