Talk:Dutch barn

Non-American Dutch barns

'Dutch barns' are also a common type of barn in the UK. These are described by RW Brunskill in Traditional Farm Buildings of Britain 1987 edition as a specific type of hay barn: "Storage is ordered best if the hay can be protected by means of a roof, but well ventilated through the absence of walls. There developed, therefore, especially in the wetter regions, a special type of building, the hay barn, diferent from the barn proper in that it was intended for the storage of hay rather than the conversion of cereal crops [ie not used for threshing etc - Cobwall]. There are two main types: those with a fixed roof (sometimes called Dutch Barns) and those with an adjustable roof (sometimes called French Barns)." (p101) and in a section titled '1940 to the present day': "The storage and distribution of food for cattle has changed radically. Hay is still made and bales of hay are still stored in Dutch barns" (p142).

Dutch barns are very common in the UK - usually with a rounded/arched corrugated iron roof and with metal uprights, though often telegraph poles are used for the uprights.

I think this article either needs renaming to Dutch barn (American) or somesuch, or info on other examples elsewhere in the world needs including. As the article isn't my baby, I'm loath to make the decision. Over to you, A mcmurray! Cobwall 15:10, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I knew they were, I just haven't had the chance to find reliable third party sources on them, though I am certain they exist. I would love to see the barn articles be more "worldly" though, either you can add the above, since you seem to have the book and could better cite it or you can just leave the full citation here and I will add it in. Thanks. If you check Category:Barns I have added a lot of barn articles but they are all America centric, besides maybe the exception of Rice barn. Does your book have more info on the other types of barns too? I know it can be difficult to discern because there are so many different names for the same style of barn.A mcmurray 15:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I've had a go - let me know what you reckon. Have a pic of a barn near me: [1] Cobwall 17:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Kudos Cobwell, kudos. Most excellent, do you know anything about the affiliation of Dutch Barns in the UK with tithe barns? Did you get a chance to check out the other new barn articles? Any input?A mcmurray 09:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words - and well done you on all your barny contributions. Most impressive. Haven't checked out the other barn pages yet - will do when I have a spare mo. Dutch barns are from the late C18 onwards; tithe barns are much earlier (medieval) and for storage of grain rather than processing. I'm not sure about the characterisation of UK barns - there are so many different styles which seem as much dependant on the local geology and local vernacular architecture style (which in the UK can vary enormously over a matter of a mere fifty miles or so) as on their function. I'm no expert on this area, but cribbing from Brunskill (the god of all things to do with English vernacular architecture) my hunch would be that UK barns could be split into tithe barns, abbey estate barns (similar to tithe but relate to land owned by the abbey and therefore on which tithes were not due), hand flail barns, aisled barns, barns for machine threshing (including horse-engine houses), mixing house barns and barns for storage such as hay barns (including Dutch barns). I'm not sure how happily the development of barns in the UK can be slotted into the US system you've established - maybe I should start some UK-specific pages (groan), with links on the general barn page. If you can get your hands on a copy of Brunskill I'm sure you'll find it an interesting read - the photos are fantastic and he provides excellent architectural sketches. Barn porn! Oh - by the way - are you familiar with getting photos on to Wikipedia and all the copyright issues involved? I'm not, and the second linked example I put up (the sad barn) is licenced to Commons so I wonder if we could put it on the page. Cheers Cobwall 11:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I uploaded the image to Commons, it was freely licensed, with no stipulations about commercial use so its okay for Wikipedia. Aisled barns could be combined with the American style of the same name. For the other types you mentioned:

• abbey estate barns: I would say this would need its own article as it sounds like a completely British style. Perhaps a subcat or two within barns is warranted.
• hand flail barns: Not sure what this is but I believe it could be added to the article Functionally classified barns, which, eventually, should be an expansive overview on barn types which are best classified by their function. Each type overviewed will eventually have its own main article as well.
• machine threshing barns: threshing barns are common in the United States, they span many different types of barns as well. I contemplated writing an article on threshing barns, which I think that title will be more fitting, (the article could basically cover all types of threshing barns), either way, this type of barn could be added to Functionally classified barns as well.
• mixing house barns: Again I don't know anything about this type of barn. You could decide where it best fits based on those suggestions above.
• hay barns: with this type barn spanning different styles I think it at least deserves mention in Functionally classified barns, probably its own section.

I will definitely look for that book. In the next couple of weeks I am going to take a Saturday and tour the area of Stephenson County, Illinois, which is like a round barn freaking theme park! I'll be doing some photography for some articles I will be stubbing. Learn more at: Round Barns in Illinois.

As a short postscript: See also Oast house if you haven't yet, where does this fit into the scheme? I have mentioned them at Functionally classified barns.A mcmurray 11:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Wow, that was quick! Thanks for uploading the pic. I'll see what I can do about adding the UK barns, but I can't promise anything speedy (I should be at work right now...). Oast houses don't really fit in the category 'barn', in UK usage of the term 'barn' anyhow. Perhaps if I list how Brunskill organises his book you'll see where they fit and why there might be problems with classification! I realise I have missed out above some barns too like bank barns. I'm not convinced that US and UK examples can be happily merged in the same articles as they don't seem to be truly equivalent - Dutch barn being a prime example of completely different (function) types of barns sharing the same name. I wonder whether another approach might be to leave things as they are and add in a sentence or two about the UK egs and have a link to the fuller articles that I'll create. Then in future we could see if they can be happily merged or are best left spilt.

Here goes:

• Farming history and the standard farmstead
• Barns and the processing of grain crops

tithe barns

barns for hand flail threshing

aisled barns

barns for machine threshing

mixing house barns

• Accommodation for animals

cow-houses

farmyards and foldyards

shelter sheds, linhays and covered yards

hammels, bull pens, cattle boxes and loose boxes

pigsties and piggeries

hog-houses for sheep

• Accomodation for birds

dovecots

poultry houses

• Granaries and other provision for the storage and conversion of crops

granaries

corn-drying kilns, oast houses and maltings

haybarns

• Farmhouses

farmstead patterns

longhouses, laithe-houses and bastle houses

Lancashire barns and some other combination barns

bank barns

field barns and outfarms

minor farmyard structures

• Materials and construction
• Recent developments and the re-use of fam buildings
• Regional variations

Round barns, eh? They look well funky - nothing like that here in the UK as far as I'm aware, although the horse engine houses attached to barns were usually semi-circular/apsidal. Cobwall 12:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

That's quite a list. We will have to check the parent cats for barns, Category:Agricultural buildings to make sure that articles don't exist. For example chicken coop, which may or may not be synonomous with poultry house, either way, new articles or integrate into old, we shall discuss. Input? Were you thinking we should do articles for those, like I said on your talk page, I have access to quite a bit of academic material. Let me know.A mcmurray 21:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Dutch Barns in the United Kingdom

Something is wrong in the statement, "Some of the hay that was a by-product of this process was stored in hay-lofts, and some in haystacks, but the latter was prone to spoiling by rain." Hay is not a by-product of grain processing. The stalk of grains makes straw. IMT22 01:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Reword to reflect accurate statement. I am not sure I have enough knowledge of the subject, please cite reliable sources.A mcmurray 09:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Have re-written and (hopefully) removed the cock-up! Cobwall 11:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Organisation of the article

I put the UK examples at the end as they seem chronologically to be the youngest. Hay barns in general came in in the late C18, but I have a gut feeling (but as yet no proof) that the Dutch barns are a later development, prob mid C19. I'll see if I can find a citation. Certainly what are commonly called DBs in the UK nowadays are the pole barn types. I'm going to put the US egs back at the start as that's where they belong, I reckon!Cobwall 13:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Roger that, the article is looking better and better. I have some stuff I can add too. Still looking for more on Canada though.A mcmurray 21:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

New World Dutch Barns

I have a concern with the statement "The New Jersey concentration of Dutch barns was greater than that found in the Hudson or Mohawk River valleys." I have seen no reference pointing out where this has been shown. Another statement "The Bull family, who still own their 1722 ancestral home in New York's Orange County, claim the property's Dutch barn, shown in the lead photograph for this article, is the only New World one still standing" - while they claim such, they are not correct in saying so. I know of at least fifteen within a 30 minute drive of my home. I believe this statement should be removed or revised. In the meantime I have put the word inaccurately before the word claim.

I have added two books and a newsletter to the article. I have also fixed the link to the Dutch Barn Preservation Society. Mention of a Low Dutch settlement in Kentucky places the guess that Dutch Barns in Kentucky may not be Dutch Barns in question.

The design section could use a little sprucing up. Correct terminology would be useful - The mortised and tenoned and pegged beams are arranged in "H-shaped" units. could read as The mortise and tenoned beams are arranged in "H-shaped" bents, usually four or five to a barn but could be as few as three or as many as six. Mention of the variations of the standard Dutch Barn such as U barns, anglicized dutch barns, etc. would also be valuable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bathrick (talk • contribs) 07:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't speak for all of your comments, but would support removal of the claim of only Dutch barn standing based on what you say. This "The New Jersey concentration of Dutch barns was greater than that found in the Hudson or Mohawk River valleys." I believe comes from the Noble article if I am not mistaken. I will make sure. IvoShandor 08:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

And reword anything you feel like, just make sure not to use too much jargon, remember our readers likely know nothing about dutch barns and their design. IvoShandor 08:19, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, the Bull descendant who currently lives in the house says the website should say it's the only one still standing in Orange County (and it is). It is generally agreed, however, that it's probably in the best shape of any standing Dutch barn. Daniel Case (talk) 16:55, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

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