Talk:Dwarf elephant

Tilos elephant
I just added the specific name of the Tilos elephant, described 2007, with the reference. --Laplandgerard (talk) 10:49, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Stegodon
Should this page be merged with Stegodon? Or is Stegodon just one type of dwarf elephant?

--Jarich 23:33, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, because not all Stegodon are dwarf elephants. Not all are dwarfed because of isolation on islands. Pmaas 10:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Please be more specific
The page says that the dwarf elephant "evolved to a fraction of the size of their modern ancestors". What fraction? 1/100 is a fraction. 99/100 is a fraction. 1/1 is a fraction. Even 22/3 is a fraction.

And: "Modern ancestors". Isn't that a contradiction?

Devil Master 18:02, 27 Sep 2005 (MET)

Modern ancestors is indeed a contradiction, but I see that has been changed already. About "what fraction?". It is impossible to give one number, because the different species/ subspecies on the different islands had all different sizes. Some were only a bit smaller, other extremely small compared to their mainland ancestors. Pmaas 10:12, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * So please give examples, especially the adult size of the smallest known species. Osomec 21:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I will look into it, although not all scientific articles give exact sizes. I will read them again. Pmaas 20:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The text already says that the Sulawesi dwarf was only 1,5 m high. The one from Cyprus weight only 200 kg, which is a weight reduction of 98% from the 10-tonne ancestor. Molars are reduced to approximately 40% the linear size of mainland P. antiquus. Peter Maas 09:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The Falconeri elephant was only 90cm (3ft) tall, smaller than a pony horse! It had a weight of app. 150 kilos. When the ancient greeks found their skulls they theorized these belonged to a race of 3 meter tall one-eyed giants. The greeks called this hypothetical people "the cyclops" because they thought these giants built the massive prehistoric cyclopean stone walls found on some aegen islands. 81.0.79.88 19:51, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I think Devil_Master's point is that "a fraction" does not necessarily even have to be smaller than the original number, although I can't think of anyone ever using it in that context 129.49.105.146 18:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Dave

It's been 8 years and STILL this article has no information on why or how these are DWARF. Even the image is missing scale! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.26.76.5 (talk) 23:24, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

It is not a wolly mammoth
The Elephas creticus cannot be renamed Mammuthus creticus, according to some scholars and a new study in 2007. The Poulakakis s research on DNA of 2006 is wrong, while the Bate's theory is groundless. I am adding the lines and relative sources (eg. "Biology Letters", Vol. 3, #1, Feb 22, 2007 - ISSN: 1744-9561) Jack 16:00, 13 Feb 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding it and using a reference! Peter Maas\talk 14:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * But see and  Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 04:53, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Four years later Mammuthus creticus, lives again. See http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2012/05/04/rspb.2012.0671 --Racklever (talk) 09:34, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Loxoclonic falconeri
Considering fluid marrow was found in a 65 million year old T-Rex bone in 2005, what are the chances of gaining useful complete DNA from flaconeri elephant bones? If the 3ft tall mini elephant could be cloned back to life it would be a revolution in human-animal relations. Dogs, horses and cats live 15 years maximum, so people do not fully associate with their pets for fear of loss. Elephants live 70-80 years and could be pals for life. A household micro elephant would be more of an equal to humans rather than a pet. Also, household mini elephants could guarantee the survival of large in the wild elephants, I am mean look at baby elephants, all people are crazy about them. Even if the rich alone could afford micro elephants initially, it would still change the world. 81.0.79.88 19:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * "what are the chances of gaining useful complete DNA from flaconeri elephant bones?" - zero, except when lim d/dt -> infinite. It's organic. It decomposes.
 * Better get some of the "DNA research" papers. There is a reply to the critique which AFAIK is basically yes thanks for the input but you missed the point. And "DNA research"... the Sibley-Ahlquist taxonomy used "DNA research" and that was back in the phenetics era What sequence and what was found? Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 04:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Taxonomy and paleobiogeography
Is there any cladistic attempt over these, probably closely related, species? I am a bit skeptic about some things over the generic research of Mediterranean dwarf elephants.

Since Elephas creticus and its sister Cretan species were proven to be Paleoloxodonta and not Mammuthus, it seems to me highly unlikely that the Sardinian dwarf mammoth is the only exception to the Paleoloxodon-belong rule of most Mediterranean island elephants (especially when there are two confirmed Elephas(?) species on the same island).

Also specific islands having more of one (up to four) species of closely related elephants? How is speciation supposed to have happened in these cases? And what are the differences between those species? Misinterpretation of specimens’ differences, due to age categories and local form variation, as different species is not that uncommon in paleontology and it seems like it is the case.

Is there a considerable chronologic or geologic barrier, between the described species of one island, that would rationalize speciation?--Draco ignoramus sophomoricus (talk) 15:35, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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Bold statements
This: St. Paul Island shares this characteristic of geographic isolation, implying that human hunting may have played a role in the disappearance of the woolly mammoth.

Or maybe not. After all who say that humans were the main cause, when the european, siberian and american mammuth population (and dozen other species) all died out in the same time, despite the simply fact, that humans hunted usually those animals in Europe atlest 500,000 yrs before, and siberian humans were presents atleast 40,000 years ago? It seems a straw arguments and it's basically without proof. Not even in US there was never proof a 'mass killing' of anything else than the bisons, and they are still alive today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.11.0.22 (talk) 21:24, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Tables and Location map
I made the effort to create tables and a location map according to the latest scientific standards. There is a similar version I created in the German Wikipedia article. Text with outdated information that I have overlooked can be adapted to this.

My most important changes:
 * instead of Elephas now the genus Palaeoloxodon is in use for Mediterranean darf species
 * Mammuthus creticus is now recognized in scientific community
 * the majority of scientists suggest two dwarf species for Sicily and Malta, not three: P. falconeri and P. mnaidriensis (Palombo 2020). According to Ambrosetti, 1968 the species P. melitensis is synonymous with P. falconeri
 * the validity of P. antiquus leonardi has been questioned in some papers (see Palombo, 2020, p. 4)

--Walcoford (talk) 15:59, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Reason for extinction?
The article says extinction of the insular dwarf elephants has not been correlated with the arrival of humans to the islands, yet goes on to speculate about the extinction due to the Holocene and volcanic eruptions. Surely, there must be actual theories the article can expand upon? Viriditas (talk) 00:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)