Talk:Earthless

incomplete
Hi,

What is missing to complete this article?

Thx, --K0zka (talk) 07:20, 22 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Quite a lot. The problem is this is a notable act as confirmed by critics, but much of the information exists only on unreliable sources (ex. It's Psychedelic Baby, a Blogspot-based webzine, which as far as I can tell has been given no credibility in other publications and therefore is an unsuitable choice to use on Wikipedia).
 * Sonic Prayer was a release so far under the radar literally the only review I can find for it is the Allmusic review. At the moment the primary band article lacks any information whatsoever on the release, because I can't find any online (print sources exist because, as you know, Google isn't all-encompassing, but good luck finding them). That also explains why its entry on Earthless discography is so bare in comparison to the rest of the article.
 * Rhythms from a Cosmic Sky was slightly higher-profile, but still not by much. Little more exists for it than Sonic Prayer, and what does exist belongs mostly on Earthless discography, not here. I added all I could to this article and again print sources I haven't located may exist, but it's hard when some of these sources are so far underground.
 * Live at Roadburn has a decent portion of the article dedicated to it, but From the Ages is just incomplete and may have more information available on it. I've collected some sources and will add them eventually, but some stuff from Earthless discography that only exists there may be usable here.
 * What it boils down to is the lack of WP:RS online. Again, sources may exist that haven't appeared online yet (e.g. a review for Rhythms which was published only in Outburn magazine and doesn't appear to exist online, but was written by Jeff Treppel, a writer who AFAIK meets the criteria for his reviews to be included). I put the template on as a way of saying, "Don't be surprised if the article seems unfinished or you know of stuff that's missing, 'cause we're working on that."
 * Thanks for taking the time to start this discussion! I would have myself except until now I was working alone.  Lazy Bastard  Guy  21:21, 23 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi there,
 * I don't know what is exactly your problem. Is a legal issue or Wikipedia bureaucracy? I hope you're not claiming that Earthless don't exist. They are a very well known band in their genre. I found many mentions about them in many pages. Of course they would not be mentioned in MTV or mainstream music websites; they are a Space rock or Progressive rock band that mainly record 20-minute instrumental songs, think about it.
 * Here are two links that specifically mention them: https://itunes.apple.com/us/artist/earthless/id58157191 and http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4789. Only real bands have a discography in iTunes; and Progarchives is one of the best known pages for Progressive Rock, with a long history. Of course, they are mentioned in many other websites, but maybe not where you're looking for them.
 * It would be a real pity for someone to just decide to remove their entry altogether. If you have an issue with specific parts of the page, delete those. Alex (TangerineFloyd) (talk) 06:25, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you misunderstand me. My point isn't that they're not notable (there are abundant sources that confirm that they are), the problem is about certain aspects of their existence. They deserve a WP article, beyond any doubt, but it's just that certain holes exist in it because reliable sources are hard to locate, if they even exist to begin with. I imagine at some point certain sources will crop-up in the future, esp. if they take the time to reflect on their history as a band, but as of now certain parts of the article are out of my hands because I can do no more with them. The article is deserved; anything above a C-class rating for it is not at the present time.
 * I dispute the notion regarding real bands having iTunes discographies; not all iTunes artists have articles on Wikipedia. That alone is not a sufficient notability criterion, but again notability isn't the issue. I may have used ProgArchives in the past, but I can't remember; I think I've been meaning to ask whether it would be acceptable to use per WP:RS (and I imagine it is). As far as deleting certain parts of the article, I would be very hesitant to do so; all of what I've included is, AFAIK, sourced, and as far as your advice in that regard I would only do so for WP:OR (and I have done so already).  Lazy Bastard  Guy  18:04, 24 June 2014 (UTC)


 * LazyBastardGuy, Thank you for the explanation. Alex (TangerineFloyd): Notability is not an issue if I understand correctly. --K0zka (talk) 08:57, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
 * No problem, I enjoy that we now have a conversation going.  Lazy Bastard  Guy  18:04, 24 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Dear LazyBastardGuy, if I have understood you correctly, you are merely making a plea for anyone to assist in improving parts of the page, but the page itself is not in any danger whatsoever. If all that is needed is for some fellow wikipedian to take the time to correct or remove certain parts, at any time in the future, then all is ok I guess. If that is the case, then I did misunderstand you. Because your original post seemed to be all about notablitity, that they're "a notable act as confirmed by critics, but...", even going to specifics that some albums are not sourced correctly.
 * As regards iTunes and Progarchives, I dispute your dispute, it's only your opinion. They don't just have a song or two in iTunes, they have a full discography that goes back a few years. And while it is true that many iTunes artists don't have a wikipedia article, that is irrelevant; some bands might deserve a wikipedia page and no-one's created one for them, or they might not deserve one for a number of reasons. However, when you write anything about bands like Earthless or Colour Haze or Essex Green, you have to take under consideration that we're talking about acts that are the exact opposite of highly-notable artists, e.g. Celline Dion or Metallica; they might never get sources of "higher-profile", so what you're asking might take some time. Alex (TangerineFloyd) (talk) 04:42, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I am not certain how I have conveyed any concern for the article getting deleted. I know for a fact it will not. I am indeed "merely making a plea for anyone to assist in improving parts of the page" because it would be very helpful and greatly appreciated if someone had a WP:RS that hadn't surfaced online yet. From my corner of the world, there's only so much I can do, so if I can't find it, it's up to someone else to include it if they do. I am completely confident that the article is in no danger whatsoever, it only exists in a very incomplete state and may remain so for the foreseeable future, given the nature of the topic. Any help at all is very welcome.
 * With that sorted, as far as iTunes goes, my only point is that being on iTunes is, in itself, not very noteworthy. We'd need something more than that to substantiate an artist's significance, but since we already have for Earthless that is not the issue at all. And if I have not used ProgArchives yet it is only because I haven't been certain that it is usable and I've been too busy to find out.
 * Of course, this will all take some time. I understood that from the very beginning. I'd like to make an FA out of this immediately, but I know that's not going to happen and the world won't end tomorrow if they don't have the best possible Earthless article we can give them. I am not asking for anyone to drop what they're doing and rush to get stuff up here as soon as possible, although if anyone finds anything getting it up here ASAP would be greatly appreciated. All that being said, I have probably done all I can for the article unless some new stuff comes up that I can assist in touching-up/reorganizing.  Lazy Bastard  Guy  16:01, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for clarifying that again, a second time. I do apologize for misunderstanding you. I am relatively newer to wikipedia than most of you. To my eyes, this article is flawless, I don't see the problems you see. It's like you can read the screens of the Matrix and I cannot. Anyway, if you believe it needs improvement, I'll leave you to it, I won't bother you with my novice comments. I didn't mean to take this discussion off track. Alex (TangerineFloyd) (talk) 04:22, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
 * No worries. I know this article is incomplete 1) because I'm experienced in dealing with WP band articles and knowing what should be in them and what should not, and 2) because I've looked for such information to fill out this article (which, again, largely exists only in unreliable sources we cannot as yet use). Any input is valuable. If you come across something you think we could use (I'm the only one likely to still be here but it's not my article, it belongs to everyone), please do put it here so we can take a look at it. Thanks!  Lazy Bastard  Guy  00:32, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

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