Talk:Ecclesiastical government

[Untitled]
Regarding DOM comments on Ecclesiastical government and Ecclesiastical state please do not readd until such time as a decision has been made in terms of whether Ecclesiastical state will be deleted or reverted to Ecclesiastical government.

Also there needs to be a consensus regarding the changes you are proposing. Please discuss them and as for other's opinions rather then making changes carte-blanche. Davidpdx 9/25/05 13:39 (UTC)


 * Vatican isn't the only recognized ecclesiastical government. Seems like you are trying to control this category as you are the only one talking there.66.245.247.37 17:55, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually I'm not, if you look at my comments, I am saying that it is now up to how people decide jointly. The choices on the table are merging this Eccleastical state with Eccleastical goverment or deleting it all together and protecting it from being recreated. If you want to comment follow the link on the article page. They are also discussing whether or not to remove the DOM reference from both pages. If you have proof, you should present it to them soon. Davidpdx 9/29/05 7:31 (UTC)

Defining Scope of Article
Whether a merge goes thru or not -- this topic is broader then the present stub suggests. There were a number of ecclesiastical states/governments during the Protestant restoration (i.e. Zurich, Switzerland) and, of course, modern states like Iran may also fit in the category. I'll try and find time to read Ecclesiastical state sometime soon -- so I'll have a more informed opinion. WBardwin 07:58, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * well- I guess there wasn't much to merge. WBardwin 08:24, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * No, there wasn't much to merge. Another problem is that Johnski went and created yet another page for Ecclesiastical government as a category. Rignt now I'm working to getting that one listed for deletion. Everything (that is legitimate) in terms of Ecclesastical governments or states should be able to be listed on this page.


 * The article could use some work. The other problem is that POV pushing with DOM has been taking time away from other editing to constantely fix the garbage that has been added to this page as well as others.


 * If there are other, older Ecclesiastical governments (or states) that could be listed, I encourage you to do the research. I have no problem with things that are legitimate, it becomes a problem with you have people pushing fraud though. Davidpdx 16:19, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Davidpdx, there you go trying to insult me again, claiming that I am trying to push fraud! Since when is removing bias by bringing balance to an article i.e. reflecting both sides in an article, "pushing fraud"? Did you really read all the rules you encouraged me to read?


 * WBardwin, you might want to include these:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochsenhausen
 * and
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishopric_of_Besan%C3%A7on

Unfortunately Davidpdx might not allow it, though, since the idea came from me. Cordially,Johnski 22:12, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * During the reformation, many heads of state declared themselves the ecclesiastical head of the church in their dominion -- i.e. Gustav I of Sweden and his heirs in the Vasa dynasty and the Tudor dynasty of England with Henry VIII and his children (excluding Mary). Then clerics, such as John Knox in Scotland, placed church obligations on their kings.  I would suggest some definition of terms and levels of ecclesiastical management as sorting mechanism for our examples.  But .... starting to feel like independent research.  I, at least, am not aware of any sythesizing work done on this broad topic.  Another trip to the university library -- I'm afraid.  Why don't you guys also look for a major source to define our terms?  Here's a link from 1885 -- probably out of copyright -- that could be a starting point.    WBardwin 22:55, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * WBardwin, I enjoyed reading the reference you provided. I believe the word Ecclesiastical comes from the word, "Ecclesiastes" which is the name of a book in the old testament. Therefore, as you may have also suggested, we shouldn't limit this subject to Christian ecclesiastical governments. Perhaps the first ecclesiastical state in history was the Kingdom of Melchizedek since Melchizedek according to the Old Testament (neither Christian nor Jewish?) was the priest and king of Salem.  I believe you could also say that the Kingdom of Israel was indeed an ecclesiastical (Jewish) state.Johnski 04:04, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I would say that there are two categories - the equivalents of the Holy See and the Vatican City State - government of a religon and government of a secular state in which there is a strong religious component.

Could there also be an entry for the religious equivalent to International relations?

Jackiespeel 21:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)