Talk:Education in Germany

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 September 2018 and 15 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Gmoney1997.

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The passage on foreign language education is unclear
''English is compulsory throughout the state in secondary schools, but it is not always the first foreign language; pupils at Gymnasium are often required to learn Latin as their first foreign language. In some states, foreign language education starts in the Grundschule (primary school). For example, in North Rhine-Westphalia, English is started in the third year; Brandenburg starts with either English or Polish, and Baden-Württemberg starts English in the first year.''

I'm a bit unclear on the sentence starting "For example,". Convention requires this to offer examples related to the immediately preceding sentence (foreign language education in Grundschule (primary or elementary school)), but after reading it I started wondering whether these were actually examples relating to the preceding sentence (i.e. English not always being the first foreign language). Ricklaman (talk) 00:03, 31 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I think "third year" and "first year" (which are part of primary school) indicate that the conventional meaning is intended (since the preceding sentence refers to secondary school), but that might not be obvious to the average reader. --Boson (talk) 00:22, 31 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Gymnasiasten (german word for pupils at Gymnasium) learn English at the 5th grade, Latin at the 6th Grade. Sometimes they learning at the 10th grade French too. In the Grundschule pupils learn playfully basics like "My name is xxx" and the spelling. Education in Germany is tricky, in parts the education winnows from school to school so it's difficult to generalize it. --188.194.48.88 (talk) 03:18, 12 July 2011 (UTC) Miliko Discussion
 * Education in Germany is not tricky but very varied ;). E.g. I, as a german, don't know a single school where you learn English at the 5th grade, Latin at the 6th Grade and at the 10th grade French. All schools I know start foreign languages at 5th, 7th and sometimes 9th grade with Latin being very rare these days. --Echosmoke (talk) 21:40, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I only know the situation in Bavaria :) --188.194.223.123 (talk) 00:38, 5 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Please don't mix the general term first foreign language with the legal term. Pupils can start with English in 3rd grade and then attend Latin as "first foreign language" (legal term) from 5th grade! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:2AD2:100:B928:C445:89E9:C1A5 (talk) 21:09, 5 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Though, in fact, the English you learn in the 3rd and 4th grade with 2 lessons per week is negligible; as the subject was specifically designed to exclude any approach to really learning the language (the technical term is "playful" or what). Now, in the 5th year, at least at the Gymnasium and to (I guess) a (very) slightly lesser extent the Realschule - not so sure about the Hauptschule -, you really do learn the language, so it is even justifiable to call it the 1st foreign language, even though it may be Latin and you may have had two years of singing Baa baa black sheep have you any wool and the like before that.--88.217.180.69 (talk) 01:23, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

10a/10b
"There are two types of grade 10: one is the higher level called type 10b and the lower level is called type 10a; only the higher level type 10b can lead to the Realschule and this finishes with the final examination Mittlere Reife after grade 10b." That's false. In Hauptschule are 2 branches: the normal branch and the M-Zweig branch (Mittlere Reife Zug). It starts after Grade 6 (7 - 10) On M-Zweig at the 10th grade Realschul subject material is educated, from 7-9 it's the same like Hauptschule. Reason: career changer are to be abled to change. I think thats the meaning of this sentences. Sometimes the Realschulabschluss made on Hauptschule will not be accepted from employers. --188.194.48.88 (talk) 03:40, 12 July 2011 (UTC) Miliko - Discussion where is that? never heard of that — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.188.56.161 (talk) 22:11, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Secondary Education Organisation ... Universities?
The School Organization subsection in the Secondary Education section lists facts that apply to secondary education (partially to primary education, as well) -- and among the last few list items, suddenly states facts about universities, such as "Larger universities often have a local student-run radio station, however." This probably belongs into the tertiary education section. Possibly, the whole school organization subsection should either be split/duplicated, so there's such a section for each primary, secondary and tertiary education, or the whole subsection should be moved so it's not associated with either of these education stages any more.

In general, schools found in primary and secondary education probably are very much alike in many aspects, while both are very different from universities. Fachhochschule and Berufsakademie etc. are somewhere in between. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.69.215.56 (talk) 07:23, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

PISA updates needed
Hi, the section on international comparison is rather outdated, as the German scores at PISA and other studies improved considerably since 2003/06. Someone should update that. Cheers, Horst-schlaemma (talk) 08:43, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Student visa - possible extensions
Hi, I created the following section for Immigration to Germany. I'm sure we can implement some information here, but as there already is some of the information included, let's have a look at what makes sense. Cheers! -- Horst-schlaemma (talk) 20:06, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

In Germany, there are student applicant visas and student visas. The former can be applied for when the admission to a university is not yet completed, and lasts for three months, which can be extended up to six months. When a student visa is granted, the application for an extended residence permit should follow at the respective university office. This is relevant for non-EU citizens and all students who intend to stay longer than 90 days.
 * Student visa

In general, public German universities don't charge tuition fees. This usually also applies to foreign students. The German Academic Exchange Service (DAAD) provides support for international students and academic cooperation in Germany.

After graduating, citizens of the EU or the European Economic Area (EEA) have free access to the German job market. Graduates from other countries can extend their residence permit for up to 18 months to look for employment. While many employers prefer proper German-language skills, there is also a great variety of English-language and globalised jobs in Germany, especially in multinational companies, many startups and in research fields. According to a study of the Federal Office for Migration and Refugees (BAMF), around 54 percent of foreign students in Germany decide to stay after graduation.


 * Refs

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Translation Problems
So i have to agree on most topics here and the structure of the Education system in Germany is more or less complete and much better months ago. Thanks to all those wiki-members or editors.

But we have a small problem with the translation. Some of the words and concepts of the german school system are not to translate into the English language. And of course there are several differences between the british and german school system. If some was an exchange student in Germany or vice versa knows that so many suggestions here are contraproductive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.90.9.62 (talk) 08:45, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Free higher education?
Are you kidding? The 60 euros mentioned go directly to the state, some other 100 euros to the university and this does not include those high living costs around popular cities that don't even have enough space for local inhabitants, public transport and using the cafeteria, which adds some more 600 euros per month. --2.245.116.133 (talk) 19:38, 20 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Those are not student "fees" (Studiengebühren), but normal living expenses that you have to pay no matter whether you go to university or not. Public transportation is also usually included in the Sozial-/Semesterbeitrag. Nakonana (talk) 17:50, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

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outdated
The article is quite outdated, it fails to show the misery of the reforms(not saying that the reforms are bad but the federalistic nature of having over 16 different schools is..) what could be mentioned is a Stadtteilschule/regionalschule/whatever secondary school is called in other states) in most states except the south different cutoff dates(in NRW kids go to school at 5 years old) mandatory preschool for kids not meeting language/behaviour marks by 4.5 yo (for example in Hamburg) Different lengths of primary school g8/g9 in different states Gebundene Ganztagsschulen vs offene Ganztagsschule (with the difference that former have lessons spread through out the day vs the OGS which are glorfied daycares (only classes in the morning and activities/homework in the afternoon). Playschool(kita and kiga) being mixed age (1=3, 3-6 and 1-6) different fees(like in Hamburg where 5 hours/day are free to anyone with a 3+ year old child) 77.188.56.161 (talk) 22:19, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

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International students in Germany from Africa
Do students form Africa really need their own subsection? By the cited source they only make up about 4.5% of all foreign students and the text does not distinguish them from students of different origin. Part of it also reads like instructions and the part about scholarships feels redundant to what is already written under the "Tutition Fees" section. I think it should be rewritten to fit all international students or removed altogether. Fxmg (talk) 11:32, 25 August 2020 (UTC)


 * As no one has disagreed with the points you've raised, I have edited the section accordingly. In addition to what you've stated, there is no clear need to include a section on "International students from Africa" when there is not even a section on "International students" more generally. Further, I agree with you that the section text read more like promotional material for prospective international students and thereby was in breach of WP:MOS, WP:NPOV, and WP:PROMOTION. Mongrelmusings (talk) 03:02, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Syntactic problem
In section 1.7, one of the bullet points states: "bilingual education is now a mandatory English lessons in Grundschule." I tried to rewrite this into a proper English sentence, but was unable to conclude its intended meaning. I looked up related information via Google, but could not find any evidence that lessons taught in English (only) had been made mandatory at the Grundschule/primary school level. Please redact. Zszabo (talk) 04:57, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Term length
There is this sentence in the article: "but secondary schools in particular have switched to 90-minute lessons (Block) which count as two 'traditional' lessons" This is definitly not true as general as it is forumlated, e.g. I'm from Bavaria and I know a couple secondary schools have 45 min terms, that are only merged to 90 min terms in some rare occasions (typically only for sports and Art). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.182.53.8 (talk) 23:20, 22 February 2022 (UTC)


 * It is different from school to school, no general rule possible, but I guess 45 min is still the standard, the block-modell still the exception. Andreas von Stackelberg (talk) 22:00, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Kulturhoheit - the lack of understanding of the German non-concept of 16 different states with at least as many different school systems
In general: The complete article tries to generalize what German education system is like - but in most cases is not refering to the differences Germany has between one state ("Bundesland") and the other. The problem starts in the second sentence of the article - and goes on until the very end. "Optional Kindergarden (nursery school) education is provided for all children between one and six years old, after which school attendance is compulsory". In some states that might possibly be correct - in Bavaria for example the term "Kindergarten" is reserved for preschool for the children from three years old up to five / six years old (depending on the entry age for school). The two years before Kindergarten are called "Krippe". "Grundschule" might mean (for example in Bavaria) the first four years of school, in other states it might mean the years one to six. The two types of secondary school (lower / higher or more frequently called Sekundarstufe I / Sekundarstufe II) are - for example - not existing in Bavaria. "From 2005 to 2018 a school reform known as G8 provided the Abitur in 8 school years". Just nope. In Thuringia and Saxony they started G8 in 1949 and kept it to the day. In many other states they started around 2005 and kept the system, in other states they started later, in some they stopped G8 and came back to G9, in others they did not. "Only a few Gymnasiums stay with the G8 model." That is as far as I know only the case in Bavaria. "Other than this, there is the Gesamtschule, which combines the Hauptschule, Realschule and Gymnasium." Every fifth pupil in Sek 1 attends a "integrierte Gesamtschule" (the "usual" type of Gesamtschule in 9 of 16 states). Languages: In most states pupils "really" start in grade 5 with their first "foreign" language, this is true for almost all pupils in almost all schools. There might be some songs or a course how to say "hello" or introduce yourself in English in "Grundschule" - but usually it is just a playful introduction to the language. The vast majority of schools start with English, but there are local differences (in Saarland it is often French, in some states in the east some schools still start with Russian or Polish language, in some states a few specialized schools start with Latin). The second foreign language starts in some states in grade 7 in others in grade 6 - but many schools don't have a second foreign language. In some schools you can have a third language, this might possibly start in grade 8, 9, 10 or 11 - depending on state, system, school and choices the parents made before the beginning of the third language.

I see no real possibility to solve this chaos, because the chaos in this article is the result of the chaos of our German school system(s). Andreas von Stackelberg (talk) 21:56, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Suggested reading

 * Bavaria Lektüreempfehlungen https://www.lesen.bayern.de/lektuereempfehlungen/ Xx236 (talk) 06:53, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hessen https://kultusministerium.hessen.de/sites/kultusministerium.hessen.de/files/2022-09/lektuereempfehlungen_sekundarstufe_i.pdf !!!!
 * Sachsen-Anhalt https://lisa.sachsen-anhalt.de/fileadmin/Bibliothek/Politik_und_Verwaltung/MK/LISA/Unterricht/Lehrplaene/Gym/Anpassung_2022/Lektuereempfehlungen_Deu_01082022.pdf Xx236 (talk) 06:56, 31 August 2023 (UTC)