Talk:Efim Bogoljubow



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 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 16:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Yefim Bogolyubov → Efim Bogoljubov — or → Efim Bogoljubow. Revert move by Ezhiki with edit summary citing WP:RUS. (Note that the last edit before Ezhiki's move was Mibelz moving without discussion the last name from Bogoljubov to Bogoljubow, so the choice there has never been established either). That WP:RUS is irrelevant to the naming conventions, because Wikipedia isn't doing the Romanization. The subject of the article Romanized his own name, and that is what he is known by and that is what we should use. As even WP:RUS itself puts it, "When something has a conventional name in English, use that name instead of transliterating", so Ezhiki's move was not in accordance with WP:RUS as he/she claimed. (Efim wasn't originally Russian anyway, but Ukrainian, for all those people who like to argue about Ukrainian spellings vs. Russian spellings, and the cited page deals with Russian spellings.) This German, having moved to Germany in 1926, is best known in English under the Efim spelling he used, not Yefim. If it cannot be decided otherwise, toss a coin to decide between Bogolyubov and Bogolyubow, he is known under both spellings. Gene Nygaard 17:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Survey

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 * Support Efim with either Bogolyubov or Bogolyubow, as nominator. Gene Nygaard 17:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Support on condition that proof of "Efim Bogolyubov/Bogolyubow" being a "conventional name in English" is presented (namely, proof of this statement: "the subject of the article Romanized his own name, and that is what he is known by"). According to established (although unofficial) practices, WP:RUS is to be used for Russian [Ukraine was a part of the Russian Empire at the time of Bogolyubov's birth] names when there is either no corresponding established English name, or when there are several acceptable equally common variants with WP:RUS variant being one of them.&mdash;Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 18:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Support Two of the external links use Efim; one claims to be his homepage. The third distinguishes its use of "Yefim" (as best guide to pronunciation) from Bogolyubov's own choice of "Ewfim" to use in German. (Note: if he prefers Ewfim to Jewfim, then he should also prefer Efim to Yefim; the difference in sound is the same.) Septentrionalis 17:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Note, however, that since he died in 1952, the website cannot be his.&mdash;Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

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 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Bogoljubow & Nazis
In Lessons from My Games: A Passion for Chess, Reuben Fine claims that 'Bogoljubow had some of his rivals put in concentration camps by the Nazis when they arrived on the scene in Germany.' Are there any other sources to support this claim, and who were these 'rivals'? — 203.173.16.46 11:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
 * According to Kmoch, Bogoljubow was sympathetic to the Nazis (e.g. insisting on the use of swastika to identify his nationality even before it was a universally accepted emblem of Germany) and insensitive, to say the least, towards the plight of his Jewish colleagues, whom he openly taunted.
 * I agree that it may be worthwhile to add a section discussing the controversy.

EugeneK (talk) 00:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I know Edward Winter has questioned Fine's claim and stated that he knows of no support for it. Bogoljubov, despite having played Alekhine two matches for the World Championship, was not one of the original grandmasters awarded the title by FIDE. He had to wait a year to receive the title, apparently because of animosity toward him because of his Nazi ties. Recently I saw a photocopy of a letter from Bogolyubov signed "Heil Hitler!" at the end (sorry, I can't recall in what book). Krakatoa (talk) 18:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Never seen the Fine book, or any other source making such a claim.

As an aside-does anyone suppose that Alekhine might have done such a thing, as he would certainly have had more influence with the Nazis than B, given his status as world champion? Hushpuckena (talk) 06:54, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Winter's site asks: Has any chess writer ever published a rigorous, extensive study of Bogoljubow’s conduct during the Third Reich? He quotes Erwin Voellmy's summary of discussion at the 1947 FIDE congress of his request for rehabilitation:

"Demande de Bogoljubow: La commission chargée d'examiner ce cas (la Suisse n'y était pas représentée) jugea, sur la bas de témoignages contradictoires, qu'elle ne pouvait pas proposer au Congrès la réhabilitation de Bogoljubow; celui-ci a été nazi, il n'a fait aucune démarche positive pour s'éloigner du régime et venir en aide à des collègues polonaises (cas Przepiorka !). Dans ces conditions, le Congrès a refusé l'institution d'un tribunal d'honneur selon le vœu de Bogoljubow. Il laisse cependant toute latitude aux directions des tournois d'inviter (ou non) ce joueur si elles le désirent."

I expanded the article a bit using ChessBase and the Chess Federation of Russia as sources. Double sharp (talk) 09:57, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Bogoljubov's ethnicity is Russian
This is blatant lies to declare Bogoljubov to be "ukrainian" since there was no such country in the times Bogoljubov lived.Bogoljubov was born in the Russian Empire and accordingly he was Russian.Morover,he had a typical Russian name and surname.At those times,there was no such nationality as "ukrainian" at all. Frank Russian (talk) 12:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Just because a country doesn't exist under its own autonomous rule, doesn't mean its people don't. If we followed this logic, then apparently you also don't believe in the existence of Aboriginals because there's a country called Australia and not Aboriginia. Perhaps Russians themselves ceased to exist when the Tatars took their country over for 200 years in the 13th century.2602:306:CD96:CC10:1DF0:9814:D8F:DA0E (talk) 14:20, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

1941 Match With Euwe
The fact that this match was played at all is surprising to me, as Euwe wasn't one of the group of top players in occupied Europe (Alekhine, Keres, Bogoljubow, et al) who played in Nazi-organised events; his play was generally confined to Dutch tournaments or matches.

So far as the site of the match is concerned, I've seen it listed as Krefeld, or Karlsbad (Karlovy Vary); is it possible to substantiate either location? Hushpuckena (talk) 07:16, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Munninghoff's biography of Euwe gives the location as Carlsbad in the "List of events." Euwe lost two close matches to Bogoljubow in 1928 when Euwe was a young, promising player, so this history, rather than politics, may have had the greater role in bringing about the 1941 match. Crawftrhas (talk) 02:16, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Quote meaning
The quote, "When I am White I win because I am White. When I am Black I win because I am Bogolyubov" is pretty funny in an intelligent way to me. The explanation given is good, but it's possible that Bogolyubov meant it in another way. The explanation in the article implies that if he ever wins with black (which has the disadvantage of starting second), it's because God has love for him. However, it's possible that he meant it as, "I win with white because it's white; I win with black because I'm (the great) Bogolyubov." I think this because I come from that part of the world and there are similar expressions. Also, Bogolyubov means more strictly someone who loves God, not really "beloved of God" (which would be something like "Bogolyuben/Bogolyubenov"). Just a thought. Cornelius (talk) 14:27, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Requested move 17 December 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa (talk) 08:24, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Yefim Bogolyubov → Efim Bogoljubow – Efim Bogoljubow is used by more English-language sources including standard chess biographical sources such as Chess Personalia (Gaige 1987), Bogoljubow represented West Germany at the end of his career and earned the GM title as a West German player so the German transliteration seems appropriate. The recent RM was necessary to resolve the inconsistent name of the page, but I think the less good option was taken. Quale (talk) 15:10, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

16:02, 4 October 2006‎ Ezhiki talk contribs block‎ 30 bytes +30‎  moved Efim Bogoljubow to Yefim Bogolyubov: WP:RUS and completes a circle of moves including the RM above. Hopefully it will lead to stability. Andrewa (talk) 08:24, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment as the user who made the page move first: I think your proposal makes sense. The previous version made little sense as it amounted to a bastardization of the name. So, either it is the transliterated Russian name or it's the German version. Apparently the latter is more common. Let us others opine, but I think your suggestion is fine.Polska jest Najważniejsza (talk) 18:25, 17 December 2021 (UTC) strike sock Sockpuppet_investigations/Miacek
 * Support per nomination and comment by Polska jest Najważniejsza. In the same manner that the Russian composer's surname is known in the English-speaking world under its French transliteration — Tchaikovsky — rather than under one of its English transliterations — Chaykovsky / Chaikovsky — the chess grandmaster is known in the English-speaking world via his surname's German transliteration, as depicted at chessgames.com and, even more tellingly, upon his gravestone. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 19:04, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per Roman Spinner. Double sharp (talk) 06:58, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Closing comment I note this reverses

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.