Talk:Eilean Donan

Entrapment
The movie Entrapment was absolutely NOT filmed at Eilean Donan, it was filmed at Duart Castle on the Isle of Mull. This doesn't need a source! Just watch the film! And if you cannot tell the difference between Duart and Eilean Donan you have no business editing Wikipedia! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.33.167 (talk) 00:20, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Population?
The info on population is wrong. NO ONE has lived there as a permanent residence since the late 17th century! It was totally ruinous in the late 17th century. When the Spanish occupied it in 1719 it had no roof! If you doubt this then go to Edinburgh's national archive and view the 1714 survey of Eilean Donan conducted by Brigadere Petit. Eilean Donan is used infrequently today as a holiday home and it absolutely certainly has no permanent resident. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.39.50 (talk) 23:59, 13 March 2013 (UTC)


 * This document from the General Register Office, which is referenced in the article, states the population of the island as 1. If you can provide other references to confirm zero population please add them in, otherwise we have to stick with this as being verifiable.  Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 09:17, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry but that source is totally, utterly and laughably wrong and you'd know that if you actually lived here like I do! I understand you believe you are adhearing to the rules but do you actually live in Dornie next to Eilean Donan? No you absolutely do not otherwise you would know that the family which owns Eilean Donan DO NOT live there as a permanent residence. Furthermore this highlights the flaws in accepting so-called official sources as infalible. Go to Eilean Donan and ask the people who actually work there and there will be your reliable source! Do not believe "officialdom" when they haven't set foot here!

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.33.167 (talk) 00:02, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Vikings?
What is the source for the idea that the castle was first built for defence against Viking attacks?

While there is no doubt the Vikings were an important influence on Scottish history, the Viking raids in the rest of Europe were over by the end of the 11th century. Granted, the Lords of the Isles were still around, but does it really make sense to talk about Viking raids in Scotland in the 13th century? I just don't know... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.65.233.187 (talk) 02:04, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You're right, there's no source for that bit. I'll tag it. Hopefully someone will clear this up. Maybe 'vikings' should read something like 'Norwegians' or the 'kingdom of the isles'. At the time, Alexander II was trying to reign in the semi-independent islesmen. The CANMORE/RCAHMS webpage doesn't mention the reason why the castle was first constructed .--Celtus (talk) 08:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Direction from which photo was taken
The first image in the Gallery, labeled "The castle, seen from the west." seems to be the same image at Wiki Commons labeled "This view from north was made at high tide." See. It's difficult to judge from the image alone which is correct - it remains a lovely photo regardless. Amaling (talk) 18:11, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Area
Having driven past it more times than I care to remember, I can't believe it extends to 5 hectares: 0.5 hectares seems more likely. Have a look on the satellite view at Google Maps and see if you agree. 45ossington (talk) 08:31, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Glad you raised this, as 5ha seemed big to me when I put it in, though it is many years since I drove past the island. On the other hand, for as long as our only quoted reliable source says 5ha, I don't think we can have a choice but to go for what is verifiable, rather than what we believe to be true. I am afraid I cannot at present think where to go to find more reliable sources. Grafen (talk) 10:46, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that &searchp=ids.srf&mapp=map.srf] shows pretty clearly that 5 hectares is way out. I don't know whether a map is capable of counting as a reliable source (I would have hoped that it is) but, if it isn't, I would suggest it is better not to include ANY figure, rather than to include a figure which we know to be wrong. What do you think? 45ossington (talk) 13:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Good call removing the 5ha number. Looking at the map you linked to, I think 5ha might just be the area of land associated with the island at low tide, when it isn't really an island, with the 1ha being closer to the area of the island at high tide. Even if we could confirm that from some source, though, I am not sure how we would fit it in the infobox. Grafen (talk) 08:28, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Image to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Eilean Donan Castle, Scotland - Jan 2011.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on August 20, 2012. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2012-08-20. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! — howcheng  {chat} 01:35, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Left-handed king
The Resoration section reads "A curious distinction is that it has one of only two left-handed spiral staircases in a castle in Great Britain, as the reigning king at the time of building held a sword with his left hand". But throughout the period of restoration, the king was George V, and I can find no evidence that he was left-handed. However his son George VI was left-handed. I wonder if there is some confusion here? Maproom (talk) 08:41, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Clan MacLennan
According to the wikipedia article for the Clan MacLennan "St. Adamans recorded [The Clan MacLennan] were occupying Glenshiel at an early date and were in residence at Eilean Donnan Castle before 1263."

also the Clan Logan Wikipedia article states that "Other sources on MacLennan, site that the clan was at Eilean Donan castle before 1263 and that the MacGillafinnens, or MacLennans, were titled Lords of Loch Erne, Tairg, and Muintir Peodachain."

I have no other information but I just thought perhaps this might be worth looking in to as I did not note any mention of the Clan Maclennan in the early history section of this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Forkstale (talk • contribs) 05:04, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Activities of the Mackenzies before 1450
Fantastic work done here by User:Jonathan Oldenbuck. My query relates to the historicity of the account of the early doings of the Mackenzies. Alexander Mackenzie of Kintail (d.1488) is recorded in a contemporary charter and MS 1467 shows that the family was by then already acknowledged as an old one. But is there any reliable source for what the Mackenzies are said to have done prior to the middle of the 15th century? A lot of the endlessly recycled traditional early history of the Mackenzies appears to have been based on the 17th century account of George Mackenzie, 1st Earl of Cromartie. Unfortunately, his invention of a Geraldine ancestry for the clan reveals him to be a wholly unreliable source. If there are reliable sources of information about the Mackenzies before 1450, I should be most interested to look into them. Otherwise, I wonder whether quite a lot of the relevant section of this article should be identified expressly as a "traditional" (sc. non-historical) account. 45ossington (talk) 08:28, 6 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I have also wondered about this, the more I got into it the more difficult I have found it to find substantive material other than the clan histories. Even recent work (such as Miket & Roberts' book, which remains excellent on the phasing of the building) regurgitates the same "histories", apparently without serious question. I've left out some of the more fanciful stories, but you are right that what remains is presented as "fact" where perhaps it should be made clearer that it is based on tradition rather than documented evidence. The articles on Leod Macgilleandrais and Fionnla Dubh mac Gillechriosd present this distinction quite well, in my view - there's a lot of "...according to John Macrae's account..." &c but perhaps that is necessary? I'd welcome any tweaks or suggestions you may have. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 12:23, 6 February 2013 (UTC)


 * And this interesting page (continued here) suggests (near the bottom) that even Alexander Mackenzie's charters are dubious.45ossington (talk) 13:01, 6 February 2013 (UTC). A further development of the author's views (based on Munro's Acts of the Lord of the Isles: 1336-1493 is set out here. 45ossington (talk) 15:11, 6 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I've had a first go at tweaking the early Mackenzies, but please feel free to amend/revert as you see fit.45ossington (talk) 10:07, 7 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Wow very interesting. Thanks for linking to those. I'd love to actually read some of Matheson's papers some day. Here's a recent and freely viewable(!) academic paper that covers the unreliability of early Mackenzie histories: "Kingis rabellis" to Cuidich 'n' Rìgh; the emergence of Clann Choinnich, c. 1475-1508. I wish there was more quality material available on the net.
 * Great job with the article Jonathan. I just noticed that in R.A. McDonald's The Kingdom of the Isles (pp84-85) he states that the the construction of the castle in the early 13th century was likely connected the campaigns of Alexander II into Argyll and western Scotland during the first quarter of the century. This line of thought is echoed by A.D.M. Barrell's Medieval Scotland (p85), a page which is freely viewable on GoogleBooks. I think that these sources are probably better than the webpage which goes on about Vikings. I think a better wlink than Lordship of the Isles would be Kingdom of the Isles. One thing I've always wondered is when the castle first appears on record in contemporary sources. Have you seen any source mention this? I think it'd be something worth mentioning. Is it the 14th century Randolph/severed-head episode?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 11:59, 8 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks Brianan. I havent found a specific mention of a first record of the castle, but as you say its likely to be Randolph's expedition (not sure from what source this originates though). I'll look up the works you suggest, thogh it may take me a while to get back into this article... Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 14:38, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

GA nomination
Is there any reason why this article cannot be nominated for GA status? Jamesx12345 (talk) 19:35, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

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Pronounciation?
As a non-native gaelic speaker I find it difficult to pronounce this name without a ridiculous English accent. Thank you.

Comments and questions
1. The article says "Eilean Donnain" and "Donnán of Eigg". The first is labeled as Scottish Gaelic but there is no information on the second. I am not an expert in Goidelic languages so it would be nice to clarify and explain the difference between Donnain and Donnán. I assume the first is modern Scottish Gaelic and the second is medieval Middle Irish.

I also noticed somebody (unsigned) requested the addition of the pronunciation (see above). That would be useful.

2. "King Magnus VI of Norway ceded the Hebrides to Scotland, and demanded that his kinsman Kenneth Mackenzie return the castle".

There is no link for Kenneth Mackenzie so it's not clear who he was historically (an explanation or a link would help).

3. The article says "the Earl allegedly apprehended Kenneth Mackenzie, 3rd of Kintail" and "Alexander died in about 1488 at a great age, and was succeeded by Kenneth Mackenzie, 7th of Kintail".

3rd and 7th what of Kintail?

4. "After this time, the castle was briefly occupied by the Earl of Balcarres and his wife".

Would this be after 1662?

5. The "Restoration and reuse" section should be split and the second paragraph should have its own title since it primarily talks about the castle in films.

6. "A tower house or keep was built against the curtain wall at the high point of the island, probably in the 14th century".

Would that be N, S, W or E? Adding that information would be good.

7. Who is/was John Gifford? I think it would help to clarify. I assume he is/was an architect.

8. The first and last image in the gallery, view from the south, are redundant. I suggest to keep just one.

ICE77 (talk) 21:04, 11 November 2018 (UTC)