Talk:Einstürzende Neubauten

Raymond Watts
Raymond Watts worked on the production of the album Haus Der Lüge, alongside Gareth Jones. Tonylamaboots 07:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

He was also their live engineer for a while and recorded some demos with them around the 'Richterskala' period. And has his own 'Pig' project.

Mufti?
Is Mufti still a member of e.n? I don't think so. Didn't he leave the band a couple of years ago? /Gusman

Mufti is FM Einheit's nickname, and he left the band in 1995, during the recording of Ende Neu. Tonylamaboots 07:08, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Pronounciation
The following was left on my (Camembert) user page. I could have a good go at an answer, but wouldn't be entirely confident about it (and wouldn't, in any case, really know how to represent it), so rather than mislead, I thought it better to copy the question here:


 * Hello. Im only asking you this cause you are one one the only users on the talk page for Einstürzende Neubauten. Without wishing to sound like an ignoramous, I would like to ask how you pronounce this bands name in English as I cant find this information anywhere. Thankyou. Motown Junkie


 * This might get you pretty close. First word: "Ein" (as in Einstein), "stuerz" (as in Stewart's or Stuart's, pretty close), "ende" (end-ah).  Second word: "Neu" (noy as in annoying), "bau" (bow as in nautical terms or taking a bow), "ten" (as in 10).  Ein-stewart's-end-ah Noy-bow-ten.  Yeah.  --Iosif 04:24, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Wow, that's awesome! I would've been all IPA, but that doesn't help the normal person anymore than explaining umlauts and diphthongs. Ausgezeichnet! Khirad 18:48, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Problem is with analogies is that they only work with certain accents. Such as 'Stewarts' doesn't work with any British accents. But I suppose they are better than nothing at all.

Eye-n stoortsenduh Noibah-w-ten is probably easier for a British speaker to follow. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.5.223 (talk) 10:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Well there are some videos on youtube that teach how to pronounce it. I'd say that it is (I speak spanish) "Ain-shtug-tsende-Noi-bau-ten" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.95.104.100 (talk) 17:32, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Try for the "stuart" bit, pronouncing "stwaw" like somebody saying "straw" with a speech impediment. Or just watch lots of Youtube videos that the band says their name Should help. --Martinkalashnikov (talk) 11:57, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

'St' in German is pronounced 'sht' so 'Stuart' etc are not accurate representations... 'shtirts' (to rhyme with 'shirts') is nearer to 'Stürz' Vauxhall1964 (talk) 12:38, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Congress Hall an E.N.
I am coming from the german wikiepage on E.N. and they say, the name had already been chosen before the roof of the congress had crushed. So the german Wikipedia states, the crushing of the roof only gave a new refernce to the name. So, who's got the point? - HellRaiser

I think that is addressed in the interview book No Beauty Without Danger (Keine Schoenheit Ohne Gefahr) / Was Ist Moeglich (What is possible). I'll see what I can find. --Iosif 15:12, 21 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I've changed the offending sentence. See from the official HKW website. They even make mention of Einstürzende Neubauten in the last sentence.--GrafZahl 14:11, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Side Projects
Shouldn't there be at least a reference to Ammer Einheit? I agree about the genre thing too, but not completely. Saying they are Industrial is like saying Dead Can Dance are goth, but sometimes the genre labels have more to do with the primary audience than music itself. It would be really odd to not say anything about the Industrial label. There are many, many groups that defy classification. I think it is POV to claim that Einstürzende Neubauten is somehow better or more different or more revolutionary than any other band - though I may feel this is mostly true - I will concede my feeling is POV. And for the newcomer, they should at least be told that the band has influenced Industrial bands today. But hey, what about those side projects?! Blixa was awesome in Nick Cave, and Ammer Einhet is, well, like later E.N. especially - essentially indescribable. I hope to one day write an F.M. Einheit article, but I'm sure others could do a better job than I. Khirad 19:04, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't see how a reference to Ammer Einheit would hurt. Nor do I have a problem saying something like "some people think of E.N. as industrial." However, I think it is ultimately non-POV and doing a better service to accurately describe the fact that E.N. is not easily categorized. --Iosif 15:10, 21 September 2005 (UTC)


 * It may not be easily categorized, but it is often categorized as industrial. In fact, if you ask people to name 5 important industrial bands, EN is almost invariably one of them (along with probably Throbbing Gristle and Skinny Puppy).  Coil is another hard-to-categorize group that is sometimes called industrial. --Delirium 02:13, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

What does the logo mean and where does it come from?
Should be in the article! 68.251.151.247 21:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

—Asatruer 04:20, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If there is a verifiable and reliable source to be cited, yes it should.

Quote from a Letter from F.M. Einheit as cited in the Band-Guide by Kirsten Borchardt from the german Hannibal-press: "In a book about symbols of stone age we found a sign that stood for the sun and one for a human who radiates energy. The human figure´s head is a simplified version of the sun symbol, which leads to the conlusion, it probably depicts a wizard, medecine man or people with magic powers." Sorry for any translation errors. 195.46.247.152 20:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Interim Link Incorrect
The link for the Interim EP leads to a page about a British band called "The Fall"... 206.192.68.118 03:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Einstürzende - verb or adjective
as a native speaker: "einstürzende" can be a verb (present participle) and an adjective. 217.227.182.87 19:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Well since the word has a gender/plural marker(and erm, an adjectival particple and is not parsable as a noun) it can only be an adjective. But it's an adjective related to the verb 'einstuerzen.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.5.223 (talk) 10:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

So am I a native speaker and I can say: It is neither a verb nor an adjective. The term "einstürzende" is the gerund of the verb "einstürzen" (German for to collapse). So "Einstürzende Neubauten" literally means "collapsing new buildings". ;) --Roblion (talk) 21:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

A gerund functions as a noun. So it is clearly not a gerund by any stretch of the imagination. In English translation it is clearly an adjective of the progressive variety. In German I believe it is an adjective of the partizip-praesens variety. Quite why anyone thinks the parsing of the phrase is at all of any relevance to the translation is beyond me anyway since there is absolutely no controversy in the choice of 'collapsing' at all!??? 90.196.108.46 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 12:27, 10 February 2009 (UTC).

Neutrality and Unnecessary info
There's a lot of non-neutral stuff in this article, particularly in the opening paragraphs, I will have a sift through it but obviously if anyone else can help make it neutral than feel free.

Also removing this:

"The title song of Silence is sexy is about tinnitus, a perpetual ringing in one's ears, often caused by exposure to loud noise.."

Found it in the band history section. It doesn't seem particularly relevant and is also unsourced.Liquidcow 10:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Influenced
If you can't cite a source where a band themselves cite EN as an influence, then the band shouldn't be listed in a section labeled "Influenced". I couldn't find an interview where EN were quoted as influences, for example. -- Xinit 00:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with you on this point. Alex ex 18:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I read somewhere way back Bargeld saying he listened to lots of Kraut rock and Pink Floyd when he was younger. But he's notorious for winding up journalists and even went through a period of recycling Lou Reed interview responses! I think the idea of influences for something so original is a bit irrelevant anyway; not as though there is anything we can point to by way of evolution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.252.24 (talk) 15:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Category:Einstürzende Neubauten
Why was this category deleted? There were two major subcategories in it (members and albums) + film "Halber Mensch" + this article + Einstürzende Neubauten logo. Does anybody else miss this category? Alex ex 18:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Language corrections
Band name

I have always been a bit uncomfortable with the translation "new buildings" because it connotes nothing modern in English. As I understand it 'Neubau' is a particular reference to very modern architecture. I'm not clever enough to know what the English equivalent is.

1980 (the beginning)

"a symbol of human with a circle in the head", should that not be 'dot' instead of "circle"? I won't be so pedantic to debate whether it really is a symbol, since I think people can understand what is meant anyway.

"has been placed on almost every one of the band's productions" The word "productions" makes no sense in English, perhaps 'products' is what is meant? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.5.223 (talk) 10:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

"Other personalities" should be "other personnel" and "named for" should be "named after"... a half decent bilingual dictionary and a little bit of effort should avoid basic errors like these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.71.131.196 (talk) 15:22, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

"The band name is usually translated into English as "Collapsing New Buildings". "Collapsing" here is a participial adjective, not the progressive participle of a transitive verb, i.e. the intended meaning is "buildings that are collapsing". Neubauten " I'm a linguist and even I can't understand what this is supposed to mean.

Finally removed the nonsensical and innacrate sentence regarding the meaning of "einstuerzende". 80.41.196.66 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:37, 29 June 2009 (UTC).

In English syntax the (non-modal) verb always follows the subject anyway (so the excludes the verb class anyway) and in German the word 'einstuerzende' is gender and case marked so it can't be a verb. I think the notion of 'participle' has fallen into disuse for either 'progressive' or '-ING form'. 212.139.72.88 (talk) 16:06, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I have re-removed the pseudo linguistic gibberish in the 'band name section as it confused rubbish- there is actually no need to parse the adjective as it is totally clear what the meaning of collapsing is... apart from that as illustrated above the information is plain wrong. Please don't just undo it again without addressing the points raised here! 80.41.247.186 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:09, 26 July 2009 (UTC).
 * "Collapsing New Buildings" is ambiguous. It is not necessarily an adjective: "to collapse" means "to cause to collapse", not just "to cave in".  Whence comes the adjective "collapsible".  Now if it is correct that "the German word is gender and case marked so it can't be a verb", as above, that solves the ambiguity, and as such is a valuable addition to this article. - BalthCat (talk) 21:45, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

No disrespect but you must not be a native speaker of English or you are going out your way to be obtuse, as I can see that the adjective neatly translates to English and needs no confusing (and totally incorrect) linguistic verbiage.

It is totally unambiguous as you would have to be on acid to mistake the adjective for a verb, it really would be quite bizarre. And it is surely chicken & egg where the root of 'collapsible' comes from noun/verb. Buildings do not normally collapse for storage, so to suggest you need to make clear that collapsing is the usual association of disintegrating is just really really REALLY weird. It's like arguing you need make it clear that 'dropping money into a wishing well' doesn't mean 'wishing, (verb) 'well' (adverb).

Collapsing is so clearly an adjective (as it is in the German too), and so clearly a perfect translation of the German it needs no caveat nor footnote.

Oh and if collapsing in English is possible a verb can you explain what happened to the subject, or more weirdly the object... otherwise we seem to have a totally ungrammatical phrase?

The info is incorrect and just plain weird it adds nothing but confusion...

80.41.247.186 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:22, 26 July 2009 (UTC).
 * Essentially everything you just wrote is incorrect:
 * I am a native speaker of English.
 * The German meaning has no bearing on the ambiguity of the English phrase.
 * It is ambiguous, as the verb "to collapse" also means "to cause to collapse", meaning that the sentence fragment "Collapsing new buildings" may in fact mean "to cause new buildings to collapse". Such as the usage "The earthquake collapsed the Golden Gate Bridge."
 * I made no suggestion that collapsing for storage was the meaning of "collapsing new buildings".
 * Your example sentence is complete, not a fragment like the translation. I would be correct if I said that "wishing well", without context, is ambiguous: I could be wishing you well, I could also be wishing effectively.
 * Since collapsing is NOT clearly an adjective, the fact that it is an adjective in German is highly useful information.
 * What happened to the subject, or the object? Uh, it's a fragment.  "Collapsing new buildings" is not a complete sentence with either meaning of collapsing.  - BalthCat (talk) 02:26, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

"It is ambiguous, as the verb "to collapse" also means "to cause to collapse" ", trust me, in the English, the correct translation is first thing anyone would think of, because logically buildings rarely actively collapse anything else or suffer from any other kind of collapse. It needs no more explanation than 'cold milk' would be read as meaning 'milk that is not hot' as opposed to 'emotionally detached milk'.

For someone to mistake 'collapsing new buildings' for a fragment would require a lot of LSD or a mental illness, because, again, in a natural setting such a fragment would not normally occur, it'd be practically ungrammatical.

When people ask me how I am I don't reply with an astrophysical then an evolutionary biological then a sociological reply just because it is merely "possible" that they "could" mean they wished to know how it is possible I exist. I give them a succinct appraisal of my state of well-being.

So to recap. Almost all English speakers would take 'collapsing' to be CLEARLY an adjective that denotes disintegration- because that's what building normally do, almost always do, when they are "collapsing".

And to be blunt, your grammatical explanation of how you see it made no sense to me whatsoever, and I am a linguist- which could mean it is way over my head in the field of computational generative parsing, or that it is total rubbish. Either way it's of no practical use.

80.41.198.133 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC).

Oh and have a look at this: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/collapse it bears out my position that the first association is the correct one. 80.41.198.133 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:06, 29 July 2009 (UTC).
 * Entry #6 at reference.com bears out my own position. I have not said, at any point, that the buildings are causing anything to collapse.  In the meaning I am referring to, an unstated force (subject) is causing the buildings (object) to collapse.  "New buildings that are collapsing" is no less, and no more of a fragment than than "Causing new buildings to collapse".  Is this usage that unimaginable? Or are you actually arguing based on the likelihood of some one interpreting it in this fashion?  (Something that is entirely subjective, and is ASSISTED by pointing out it is obviously an adjective in German.)  Especially when it comes down to an industrial band, in which "causing buildings to collapse" is not entirely out of the question.  "We Are Collapsing New Buildings", etc. (And for a learned linguist you seem to have missed the standard of signing your post with four tildes.) - BalthCat (talk) 11:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes I am indeed saying it is so unlikely that anyone in English would perceive 'Collapsing New Buildings' as being 'Verb + Object' rather than 'Adjective + Subject' is so absurd it is incredible as assumption. V+O just doesn't even feel like natural English, and the naming conventions of bands usually has the noun as the subject: the Rolling Stones, the Beatles etc. to the point is always assumed to be the such.

...and that you had to dig down in the 6th entry for your alleged viable interpretation does little to erode my stance.

Yes, it is accurate to state that 'collapsing' is an adjective. I can meet you on that point- even if I don't agree that it needs to be stated. However, can we agree, that since stating it as an adjective all the other impenetrable linguistics guff that was there before can be left out? :-D 80.41.255.240 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC).
 * Your own dig, pointing out it was the 6th entry, was unproductive considering the first five are grouped together as intransitive verbs. I did not say "it is accurate to state that 'collapsing' is an adjective."  While one meaning is an adjective, I've specifically said that the phrase is ambiguous in that "to cause to collapse" is a meaning of "to collapse".  Your claims that it is not are pretty much pointless, as the dictionary implies valid use, and another user thought it was unclear enough to insert an explanation.  The instant some one can find a good source that says the same thing as the "impenetrable linguistics guff" (ie: that in German it is clearly an adjective) I will be more than glad to make sure it stays. - 131.202.157.113 (talk) 15:34, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Here also specifically refers destructive collapse, specifically by earthquakes in the example. Or do you suggest that earthquakes are font of folding? - 131.202.157.113 (talk) 15:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

" "Collapsing" here is a participial adjective, not the progressive participle of a transitive verb, i.e. "buildings that are collapsing", rather than "causing new buildings to collapse" "

I'm sorry that really is impenetrable linguistics guff, it reads like pisstake of jargon.

Are we agreed that calling 'collapsing' an adjective is accurate (despite my Sprachgefeuhl telling me it isn't necessary to flag this up)? And if so then we are agreed that the guff above isn't necessary, because English speakers should implicitly understand what that means? If so, by all means alter the text to state that the collapsing part is (obviously) an adjective 80.41.255.240 (talk) 15:52, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As I don't have a source to confirm it is indeed intended as an adjective (other than the above claims), I am not confident enough to add that to the article. (Which is why I haven't already done so.)  As for what is said there, I'm not sure how that is garbage.  The wikilinks direct me to the proper articles to explain.  "Collapsing" could be the progressive participle (-ing) or OF a transitive verb (to collapse) but, rather, he says it is an adjective.  Participle says that participles "often share properties with other parts of speech, in particular adjectives and nouns".  As such, "participial adjective" to me, means an adjective created from a participle, such as "A dancing cow" or "A skiing cow".  So... it appears to say exactly what I'm saying.  Perhaps you could explain it best? - 131.202.157.113 (talk) 16:55, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Again, your argument that it could be a verb is absurd; again it is convention in English that a loan noun in a band name subject- thus no explanation is required, as the ambiguity is remote; again, for the EN to be VS or VO is just soooo weird as a fragment as to be nigh on ungrammatical- and again way too remote a possibility to need disqualification.

Again, the adjective is quite clearly an adjective in German (you are a German speaker and you can't spot an adjective???), and it its status as anything but an adjective in English a highly obtuse and unlikely as an error.

Apart from that the term 'participle' is falling into disuse AFAIK and the terms '[tense]continuous] ' or 'ING form' are favoured, and again the sentence is so jargonistic as to add nothing useful- especially considering that the information isn't really necessary.

82.45.209.71 (talk) 09:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) You are wrong about it being absurd as a verb. I'm not some sort of crazy person to have wondered if it might mean "to collapse new buildings." 2) I never claimed to be German, or I would write the section myself.  3) Your last paragraph is the reason I suggested you write it.  Pretend you don't think I'm a lunatic for using it like a verb. - BalthCat (talk) 08:22, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

1.) As a native English speaker who can speak German well enough to spot an adjective, I can confidently say that 'collapsing' is without any doubt an adjective. 3.) I can't pretend that anyone who assumed that collapsing was an -ING verb was anything other than out their depth with English skills or cognitively on another plane. To competent English speakers the first assumption would be for the word to be an adjective denoting that it was the building itself collapsing, and that assumption would be correct. 80.41.228.173 (talk) 08:21, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, because artists never, ever, play with words. It's also grossly insulting to suggest that I am incompetent with my native language and/or "cognitively on another plane." - BalthCat (talk) 08:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * it's not an adjective, it's a continuous intransitive verb acting as an adjectival clause. also, when translating from german to english, the transitive verb for "collapsing" doesn't "word play" interchangeably with its intransitive counterpart.124.169.65.105 (talk) 03:08, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I can see how English speakers might misinterpret the translation, as sentence fragments are indeed sometimes used as band names (especially in metalcore), compare Breaking Benjamin, Killing Heidi or Asking Alexandria for similarly ambiguous names, while the title Asking Questions is clearly not referring to questions that are asking! :-) While Killing Jokes would presumably be about jokes that are killing (although you can kill a joke, metaphorically speaking), Biting Bullets and Chasing Shadows are certainly not about bullets that are biting (although inanimate objects can bite in a metaphorical way, just think of onions, not to mention humour) or shadows that are chasing ... ;-) In fact, I just thought of a great counterexample to the claim that band names of the form X-ing Y-s can only refer to Y as a subject rather than object: Smashing Pumpkins – the original form of the band name was without the article. The article was apparently deliberately added in order to provide wordplay, see this (for the purposes of Wikipedia, unfortunately, not quite reliable) source, alluding to the The Rolling Stones template. Oh, another one: Taking Back Sunday. Another one: Counting Crows – while crows are now known to be able to count, the name presumably refers to an English rhyme "...if you hang on to the flimsiness of anything, you might as well be standing there, counting crows...", see also Crow. So yeah, it is quite conceivable that an English speaker might be uncertain as to which interpretation is intended. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:04, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry if this is in the wrong place but since my beef is with a translation to the english i thought i would stick it with other similar ojections or issues that people have with displayed translations on the page.

My issue is this : A short time later, the band released the album Ende Neu ("Ending New") in 1996.

Ende is not a verb. It translated to: the end, or end. Certainly not ending.

This, to me, is just a straight up translation from german to english using a dictionary, i would presume, and getting it wrong.

This album name also plays with the two words. As in which came first? The chicken or the egg. You would be hard pressed, to find this combination of words in a natural setting.

I did not edit the original but wanted to voice my side of things, since i do speak the langauge and grew up over there till the age of 15. So my connection with the language is organic in nature and not derived by means of being educated in the language, at some school that is not in germany.

I think it would be ok to stick to a normal translation of End New. Or what i would use, which is, New End. The chicken or the egg saying should have an influence on how you see this album title.

My language skills are far better than my coding skills here on wiki so excuse me if this goes in the wrong place and feel free to move it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EnveeNV (talk • contribs) 07:46, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Jim Thirlwell / Foetus
Someone should source and mention that EN got their deal with Some Bizarre (a significant step in their career) with great help from Jim Thirlwell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.5.223 (talk) 10:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Labels
Some Bizzare the band's UK label (and arguably most important stage in their career) should be listed... as well as the various American and Japanese companies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.41.196.66 (talk) 08:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Editing for Clarity
I edited the last paragraph in the "early years" part of the "history" section to say "This band...." since it was not clear to me which band had "disbanded shortly after".124.169.65.105 (talk) 03:08, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

actual changes in band
Ash Wednesday is not playing with Einsturzende Neubauten anymore. Since 11/2014 they have new keyboard man - Felix Gebhardt. http://felixgebhard.com/einsturzende-neubauten-2017/

They released CD & Vinyl "Greatest Hits" (25.11.2016) - info: https://neubauten.org/en/releases/greatest-hits

question? doubts? mail me: yavorius (at) gazeta (dot) pl — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.197.221.5 (talk) 10:07, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

German Language Texts
Unsurprisingly this article has a lot of German language text. I've gone through and tagged all that I could see (and that could be tagged) for accessibility. However I anticipate that this will quickly be inadequate as this page is edited. I am watching the page and will try to keep up with it. But if others could endeavor to help out as well I think that it can be kept up to date and accessible. I have not added such tags to people names, even those that look to me to be German. I simply don't know how these people are pronouncing or wishing to be pronounced their names, so I do not feel confident in marking them as being German. If other people have reason to be more confident than I, I would be encouraging them to make the changes. AquitaneHungerForce (talk) 17:48, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The problem with these tags is that they have the effect of italicizing the group's name, although it should not be in italics. Is there any way of keeping the tag but getting rid of the italics? --Viennese Waltz 08:05, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Never mind, I figured it out. I added "italics=no" to the tag where it's the band name. --Viennese Waltz 08:29, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Moving Discography
Since the band's discography is so large, especially with live albums and the different kinds of albums they have released, would it be better to create a separate Discography page for them, with main studio albums left on the main article? Just a thought. GrecoRomanNut (talk) 19:42, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I realise that some of this is written in someone's second language, but...
...what does this mean?

"The title came from a 1974 book by Leo Navratil, describing the drawings of Oswald Tschirtner. It was also a guest performer on Fad Gadget's "Collapsing New People" 7" single's B-side track Spoil The Child, recorded at Hansa Tonstudio, Berlin in November 1983."

duncanrmi (talk) 01:09, 5 June 2021 (UTC)