Talk:Elephant bird

Page move
Would there be any objection to moving this page to Elephant bird? In general, animals are listed under their common names, not scientific names, with the scientific name as a redirect. (Examples: Canis lupus --> Wolf, Panthera leo --> Lion, Haliaeetus leucocephalus --> Bald Eagle.) At least one prehistoric animal (Sarcosuchus imperator, aka SuperCroc) has also been listed by a popular name rather than scientific name for the main article. I think the same should be done here for consistency. Firebug 20:01, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Not one genus for Elephant birds
Well I disagree if the text remains like it is now! Why, because this is about the genus Aepyornis, not about Elephant Birds in general. There are (actually were) also Elephant birds of the genus Mullerornis. Pmaas 22:02, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't object to moving it if the text would be changed and all the described species are included, not only three of the Aepyornis genus. So shall we move it? Pmaas 22:07, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Elephant Bird Species

 * Aepyornis gracilis Monnier, 1913
 * Aepyornis hildebrandti Burckhardt, 1893
 * Aepyornis maximus Geoffroy-Saint Hilaire, 1851
 * Aepyornis medius Milne-Edwards & Grandidier, 1866
 * Aepyornis titan (might be a synonym of Aepyornis maximus)


 * Mullerornis betsilei Milne-Edwards & Grandidier, 1894
 * Mullerornis agilis Milne-Edwards & Grandidier, 1894
 * Mullerornis rudis Milne-Edwards & Grandidier, 1894


 * Fossil Aepyornithidae
 * Vorompatra Central: Lore

Concerning The "Divine Eagle"
Can we remove the blurb about the Divine Eagle from "Return of the Condor Heroes" being an elephant bird? The description of it doesn't sound anything remotely like an elephant bird, at all.--Mr Fink 04:53, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no objection. Another possibility is to ask for citation or verification. Peter Maas 12:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and deleted the "Divine Eagle" reference, as the guy in the story learns swordplay from a giant eagle, not an elephant bird. And in the movies, it's portrayed as looking like a giant eagle, not an elephant bird.--Mr Fink 15:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Date of Extinction
In the "Description" section, the article says Flacourt reported Elephant Birds as being extant and well known. In the "Extinction" section, no reference is made to the 17th century reports. If Flacourt is a reliable witness, then the Elephant Bird was still around in the 17th century; if not then the reason why he is not reliable must be given. Can someone resolve this, please? --APRCooper (talk) 17:56, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Now the lead says they went extinct around 1000-1200. Which is it? This BBC article says they went extinct "around 1000 years ago" but the wiki page lists so many examples of eggs and such from later than that. I really have no idea what's going on and I have no expertise in this topic. 96.41.225.223 (talk) 04:58, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Split
Aepyornis and Mullerornis should definitely have separate articles. FunkMonk (talk) 16:40, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

"Elephant bird"
Does elephant bird refer to Aepyornithids in general, Aepyornis, or only Aepyornis maximus? FunkMonk (talk) 18:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It has been suggested that Elephant bird should redirect to Aepyornis. But that should only be done if 1: Aepyornithidae is retaiend as a separate article, or if two: Aepyornithidae is a monotypic taxon, which it isn't. FunkMonk (talk) 23:55, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Largest Bird?
How can this species be the largest recorded when the Moa bird of New Zealand was 2 feet taller and one hundred pounds heavier? Firemanic9 (talk) 07:54, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Please update this article to indicate that it is in fact not the largest ever bird species to have existed - the Moa (extinct) of New Zealand had two species (of 11), Dinornis giganteus and Dinornis novaezelandiae, reached about 3.7 m (12 ft) in height with neck outstretched, and weighed about 230 kg (510 lb). (MERNZ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.89.156.113 (talk) 08:15, 17 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Scanning both articles suggests that the moa reached a weight of 230 kg, while the elephant bird reached 400 kg - significantly heavier. WolfmanSF (talk) 17:20, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I heard on the "Today" programme on 26 September 2018 that the elephant bird was the largest bird. The programme also called the elephant bird the veronday. Vorbee (talk) 08:00, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Assessment
I have reassessed the quality of this article down from B-class: initially to Start-class, but upon closer inspection, I'm pushing it back up to C-class. Although only one Cn is used, others can and should be added. Aside from citation issues, the article could use a lead paragraph or two... anything more than a single sentence. (That lead sentence should also mention Madagascar, since that is where the birds were endemic to.) At first glance, it seemed like basic information was missing from the article (such as geographic ranges, habitat preferences, etc.), but I realize that the secondary literature is probably pretty sparse. Properly filling in the article would probably require extensive reviews of the primary literature... but that's just a guess. Otherwise, the article's greatest fault is in its citations, causing it to fail the first criteria for B-class: "The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations where necessary." Otherwise the prose is good and topic coverage seems nearly complete, though far from comprehensive. Again, the Start-class rating was hasty, and I apologize. –  VisionHolder  «  talk  »  18:12, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi. About the citations, I have found the article I think was used to create the part about ratite eggshells in the Canary Island. "Ratite Eggshells from Lanzarote, Canary Islands E. G. Franz Sauer and Peter Rothe", published in Science 7 April 1972: Vol. 176. no. 4030, pp. 43 - 45. I had seen this reference, without citation, in several articles related to this one. If anyone could add it to the article, I would be most grateful (As I am really clumsy editing citations!!)

212.163.172.180 (talk) 09:02, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Egg
The measurements of the egg - am wondering about the proportions of something 13" long and 36" around - more like a ball than the egg shape of the illustration. Anyone? Manytexts (talk) 23:44, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
 * That's 5" short of a ball's circumference. What do you think it should be? WolfmanSF (talk) 04:28, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Elephant bird in Art
I think it would be worth adding the following tidbit to the article, but my edit was controversial enough to be quickly reverted. I therefore submit it here on the talk page to see if time and exposure can resolve the controversy.


 * The 2009 Disney/Pixar movie Up featured a large bird-like creature named Kevin.

The criticism on the revert was that the movie does not specify the type of bird that Kevin was. However, the appearance and size of the bird, and the overall narrative in the movie of a search for a long-lost species - they all fit the elephant bird quite well.

Comments? AresLiam (talk) 01:17, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
 * This is a great "example of original" research, which is not allowed. Furthermore, the bird doesn't look like an elephant bird at all, and doesn't take place in Madagascar. FunkMonk (talk) 01:19, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Among other things, none of the source materials for Up ever mention the elephant bird as an inspiration for Kevin, let alone identify her as one. It is mentioned that the Himalayan monal is the inspiration for her plumage, but, nothing about the elephant bird.--Mr Fink (talk) 01:37, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Taxonomic revision and new genus
An article has just been published that completely overturns a lot of long standing beliefs regarding aepyornithid taxonomy, and it might be a bit of a mess to sort out here. A lot of species have been reshuffled, and one new genus has been named, Vorombe. It concerns me a bit that this is based on morphology alone, when DNA is available, but oh well. So what should we do about this? Wait for more confirmation, or do the changes? FunkMonk (talk) 08:26, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 * It's quite possible that things will get revised again when someone gets around to doing further DNA work. For now, however, it seems we have little choice but to accept the new taxonomy, as this latest publication appears to be the most extensive and authoritative work on the subject to date. WolfmanSF (talk) 16:52, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 * FWIW - several more refs, which may (or may not) be relevant to the discussion, are noted below - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 17:17, 26 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Certainly relevant, but we should probably also cite the actual study, as I linked above. FunkMonk (talk) 17:27, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Inconsistent dates
The front of this article states that they went extinct between 1000-1200 AD. However, other sources and articles on this site claim these birds survived until the 17th century. So which is it? This site should be consistent. 24.51.242.175 (talk) 15:59, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Human involvement in extinction
There are new scientific articles indicating that humans and elephant birds coexisted for millennia:

* Sept 2018: New find clears Madagascar's first settlers of wiping out world's largest bird | Science | AAAS

* Sept 2018: For Thousands of Years, Humans Coexisted with the Largest Birds That Ever Lived | Live Science

* May 2019: To Kill an Elephant Bird: The Extinction of Madagascar's Avian Giants - Capeia

Even a Britannica article from 2019 mentions the extinction is believed to be a result of multiple causes that do include humans, but also include climate and vegetation changes on the island: elephant bird | Summary & Facts | Britannica

I have seen statements of theorized human involvement, but all of these lack evidence other than presuming other examples of human migration leading to species extinction applying to this case as well. It's worth mentioning that the examples of this I've found are all dated prior to the 2018 findings being published.

Lindsey40186 (talk) 15:57, 10 June 2022 (UTC)


 * The arrival date for humans on Madagascar is seriously contested, as you would find if you looked up the citing literature, with other scholars placing the date in the latter half of the first millennium AD. Also long coexistence doesn't necessarily preclude ultimate human cause of the extinction as this paper from last year attributes the extinction to changing land use to agro-pastoralism and increasing deforestation. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:56, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Attenborough
"David Attenborough owned an almost complete eggshell, dating from 600 to 700 AD, which he pieced together from fragments that were given to him while making his 1961 BBC series Zoo Quest to Madagascar."

Why "owned" past tense? Drsruli (talk) 00:56, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

extinction date
pretty sure there's something wrong with the date of extinction cus it says 1200 ce at first but then switches to "at least the 17th century" 2601:89:C700:90:9171:8B34:7066:2CAA (talk) 13:31, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Vorombe a junior synonym?
See they suggest that the size difference is likely sexual dimorphism. Hemiauchenia (talk) 07:16, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Common names vs Binomial name
Both should be used the common names come from Exinct Birds 2012 Ostrich2Emperor (talk) 14:55, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Unless other sources are routinely using them, I really doubt we should use them.--Mr Fink (talk) 15:10, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * look your making excuses there are no reasons not uses common name
 * also other thing we should try to make elephant bird articles more moa
 * all elephant bird species should have articles like the moa and also i gave you my source and you still making excuses Ostrich2Emperor (talk) 16:37, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I would think not using a common name in priority to the scientific name because the common name is not commonly used outside of one 11 year old source and just you would be a good excuse.--Mr Fink (talk) 16:46, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * why did you criticize that it 11 year old that pretty good for elephant birds
 * you seem not understand that elephant birds are very obscure
 * i would be shocked if even a million poeple had ever heard of elephant birds
 * we only get new stuff about elephant birds every like 5 years
 * and also why did you call there common names obscure there everywhere
 * now most wiki articles were elephant bird are mentioned common names are used Ostrich2Emperor (talk) 17:05, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * And throwing a temper tantrum will convince me, or gain consensus to go along with WP:UNDUE how?--Mr Fink (talk) 17:18, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * also why do call Binomial names scientific names Ostrich2Emperor (talk) 17:24, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Common names are only to be used if they are actually more commonly used than their scientific names, which you have not demonstrated here. However, those common names can be redirected to the species articles and perhaps listed in the intros. FunkMonk (talk) 19:33, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Elephant birds are not obscure. This article gets nearly 300,000 views per year about 1/3 that of the Dodo, which is definitely not obscure. Most people who know about elephant birds are not familiar with the species-level distinction within the elephant birds, but Aepyornis maximus is much more likely to recognisable that "giant elephant bird", same with the other species. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:42, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Origin of the epithet "Elephant bird"
Does anybody know what the origin of this name actually is? I've done some digging, and it's not clear to me. I've found secure evidence that it was in use by 1947 to refer to aepyornithids,, but the evidence for its use prior to this is pretty sparse. . (Note that "Some Avian Exhibits That Recall the Past" dates to 1971, not 1844). This 1861 book uses it to refer to the moa genus Dinornis instead. . Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:15, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Looking at google books, I've now found results from 1931 and 1897 . Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:50, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Now 1893 . Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:56, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Having looked through the entirety of google books, I can't find a specific mention of the phrase "elephant bird" referring to aepyornithids that predates the 1890s. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:01, 2 May 2023 (UTC)