Talk:Elisabeth von Thurn und Taxis

Redirected article title
Wonderful article! I redirected the article from Elisabeth, Princess of Thurn and Taxis to Princess Elisabeth of Thurn and Taxis since the former style is that of a sovereign title holder. Great work! --Caponer (talk) 20:54, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks Caponer, I worked on it for a while, I hope I got things right. Thanks for sorting out what to call it, there are a lot of "Princess Elisabeths" in the Thurn and Taxis lines. I wasn't sure how to address that but you have shown me. I also wasn't sure how to put it in German - shouldn't we use the "Prinzessin Von" form? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 20:59, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Moved to Princess Elisabeth von Thurn und Taxis
I asked about her name in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Royalty and it would appear that she should be called what she calls herself, so I moved it; presumably this should also apply to other members of the Thurn und Taxis family in the English Wikipedia? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 08:37, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Had to move it back again - please note this has already been discussed. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:47, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Princess?
There is no such thing as a princess in Germany, and it's been that way since 1919. Elisabeth v. T. u. T. uses Prinzessin (German for princess) as part of her surname, but that does not make it a title. Translating that part of her name and putting it at the beginning of her name is misleading. This article should either be named Elisabeth von Thurn und Taxis or Elisabeth Prinzessin von Thurn und Taxis. Its current form is just wrong.--134.130.4.242 (talk) 00:32, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Noone can be as bureaucratic and legalistic as a German... IP 134.130 was a German, right? (I am too, of course)... Let's not be ridiculous, she is a Princess, "Princess" is obviously a title, and there's an end of it. By the way, even the German law which you so strive to force to your side treats nobility with indifference (the "part of the name" thing is how titles are to be treated as far as the state is concerned) and not with abolishment. This isn't Austria; and even the Austrian rules on the subject are happily ignored in Austria.
 * When His Eminence the Cardinal and Archbishop of Munich speaks in the Parliament of Bavaria, his address begins with "Your Royal Highness" because on such occasions the Duke of Bavaria is usually also present. And the Parliament doesn't complain.
 * As for surname, Princess Elisabeth uses "Thurn und Taxis", by the way.--2001:A61:260D:6E01:888A:FC6A:A542:FAD3 (talk) 02:22, 2 December 2017 (UTC)


 * I know this is old, however, I want to add that, in the most technical sense, the abolition of national recognition of titulature does not, in itself, mean the titles no longer exist.


 * As Germany is now a Federal Republic, it cannot recognize the titles or status as nobles of certain citizens, following the precedent of other monarchic states-made-republics and the general sentiments that republics hold towards their preexisting aristocracy. This, for many reasons, does not mean that the titles are no longer valid. One such reason, is that titles (and especially those in the Continental Germanic tradition (i.e. the former Holy Roman Empire, the Low Countries, Austria, et c.) have the property of being dynastic. They belong to the dynasty or noble house, and most of the European systems do not have ways to remove them once they have been given, and, if they do have said mechanisms, they were scarcely used (an example being the British attainder, which was less a mechanism for the derogation of a nobleman and more a system for the forfeiture of all civil rights). Furthermore, successor states have never been recognized as having jurisdiction over the titles and titled class of the state(s) it succeeds. As such, they may integrate the titles into the surname (as Germany and France have done) or even make it illegal to express the existence of the title, but these titles exist, whether substantive or non-substantive, as actual noble titles, and not just in the family name.


 * TL;DR: The comment by 134.130 is itself incorrect because titles exist whether or not a successor state is willing to recognize them. --EdwardBrighton (talk) 05:52, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Should this be retitled Princess Elisabeth of Thurn und Taxis?
I am changing the title of this page to "Princess Elisabeth of Thurn and Taxis." Not to be pedantic or formalistic, but technically all titles should be translated to the language in which they are being referred to (i.e. "King of the Netherlands," not "Koning der Nederlanden"), which is why "von" will henceforth be "of." Furthermore, "und" should be changed to "and" because Thurn und Taxis is the name of a state of the Holy Roman Empire. The names of countries are translated into the language in which they are being referred to, if possible. Finally, this follows the precedent of the article title of the head of the dynasty, which is "Albert II, Prince of Thurn and Taxis." --EdwardBrighton (talk) 06:10, 26 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Edit: I am new and a little too enthusiastic, and can't change the title as of this moment. When I am "autoconfirmed" I will format this properly go on a formatting crusade. And, please do let me know if there are any reasons as to why this title should indeed use "von" and "und" whereas HSH's brother's title uses "of" and "and." Thanks! --EdwardBrighton (talk) 06:20, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 20 November 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved as detailed by SnowFire below. There is no consensus to move as proposed, but as the alternative suggestion appears a step in that direction, and was not opposed, will go ahead with that. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 13:16, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

– The English spelling should be used as it would make them consistent with the other articles about this family. Examples include Princess Maria Theresia of Thurn and Taxis (1794–1874) and Princess Maria Theresia of Thurn and Taxis (b. 1980). Keivan.f Talk 03:53, 20 November 2019 (UTC) —Relisting. Wug·a·po·des​ 02:22, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Princess Elisabeth von Thurn und Taxis → Princess Elisabeth of Thurn and Taxis (b. 1982)
 * Princess Elisabeth of Thurn and Taxis → Princess Elisabeth of Thurn and Taxis (1860–1881)


 * Move second article to (1860–1881), but Move current article to Elisabeth von Thurn und Taxis. In English, the WP:COMMONNAME appears to be "Elisabeth von Thurn und Taxis" unadorned, per https://www.cnn.com/2015/03/07/living/feat-vogue-editor-homeless-picture-paris/ or https://fashionista.com/2015/03/elisabeth-von-thurn-und-taxis-instagram .  So she doesn't qualify as being a princess either by fact (German nobility has been abolished) or by common name.  English sources also appear to not translate the German and leave it with "von" and "und".  There isn't need for disambiguation because the other two Princess Elisabeths both appear barely notable compared to this one with practically nothing written about them, so the current Elisabeth is the primary topic.  SnowFire (talk) 15:41, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Based on what you said, shouldn't we move her sister's article Princess Maria Theresia of Thurn and Taxis (born 1980) to Maria Theresia von Thurn und Taxis? Because if Elisabeth is not a princess, then neither is her sister. Keivan.f  Talk 02:06, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Oddly enough, maybe not. Her sister doesn't appear to have done anything of any importance whatsoever aside from "be a noble", so all the sources are disproportionately "noble news" type stories that are more likely to refer to her as a princess.  Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't complain if she was moved as well and would happily support it, but the case is weaker there - there don't appear to be any English sources whatsoever, and the German sources appear to favor calling her a princess ( https://archive.ph/20120910144717/http://www.rp-online.de/panorama/Bauer-Verlag-muss-wegen-Fotomontage-zahlen_aid_283593.html prominently calls her "Prinzessin Maria Theresia" constantly for example).  Elisabeth seems to have attained some independent fame for herself under the name of just "Elisabeth von Thurn und Taxis".  (Basically, to be clear, neither of these qualifies as a Princess under "has an official government title" criteria, but Marie Theresia might qualify by WP:COMMONNAME).  SnowFire (talk) 03:01, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment: Just noting that per WP:NCPDAB, the more appropriate new title for the first move request would be Princess Elisabeth of Thurn and Taxis (born 1982) (spelling out the word "born"). Steel1943  (talk) 16:25, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.