Talk:Erfurt school massacre

Gutenburg vs Gutenberg
why is this articled called Gutenburg? the school is named after johann Gutenberg, the inventor of some bookprintint techniques.

Double image
Why do we need two pictures of the school from the exact same angle at different times? Is there a time-lapse effect or some drastic changes that have ocurred between the pictures? I'm going to remove the darker image. -- ʀ6ʍ ɑ  ʏ89  02:58, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Accomplice vs accessory

 * excluded an accomplice, but not an accessory.

Sounds like a technical legal difference under German law. Can someone explain the difference in the article? Tempshill 22:08, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

There was a rumor of a second killer. A policeman located Steinhäuser´s position wrong, behind a tree on the schoolyard. After Steinhäuser shot an other policeman from inside the school he thought of a second killer. -- Noirceuil 19:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * From Accessory (legal term)
 * In some jurisdictions, an accessory is distinguished from an accomplice, who normally is present at the crime and participates in some way. An accessory must generally have knowledge that a crime is being, or will be committed. A person with such knowledge may become an accessory by helping or encouraging the criminal in some way, or simply by failing to report the crime to proper authority. The assistance to the criminal may be of any type, including emotional or financial assistance as well as physical assistance or concealment.
 * Zarboki 15:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I added wikilinks to the articles about the two terms.--Stijn Vermeeren 14:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Use of "grammar school"
The correct translation for "Gymnasium" is high school, particularly when referring to the years this article refers to (ie. year 10), as High School (in most English speaking countries) is a public secondary school including grades 9 through 12, while "Grammar school" usually encompasses the first 6 or 8 grades. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 139.163.138.14 (talk • contribs).

There is no correct translation for "Gymnasium". The German school system has four different secondary schools, each beginning (mostly) at grade 5: Gymnasium (leading to 12th/13th grade Abitur), Realschule (leading to 10th grade Realschulabschluss), Hauptschule (leading to 9th grade Hauptschulabschluss), Gesamtschule (leading to each of these exams in the respective grades). High Schools are more similar to Gesamtschule than to Gymnasium. That's why, one should use the German word "Gymnasium" whenever possible, and in case, explain it. Toscho 17:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

This kind of fits in here: Since the Gymnasium (or high school) in Germany is 13 years it should state that in the article correctly. As of right now it talks about 12 years. If no one objects, I will change it. Neutralityisimportant (talk) 06:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge?
I think the Robert Steinhäuser article should be merged into this one, because it doesn't add anything that could not well be integrated here. Please speak up if you are against this, but remember that, after all, Steinhäuser is not known for anything else besides the massacre. Kncyu38 21:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Support. Toscho 18:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Death toll
The intro didn't count a police officer in the death toll. I'm fixing it and making it more specific in breakdown of fatalities. Every name is taken12345 04:34, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Now someone has changed the count on the number of teachers killed. At least two sources on THIS PAGE say 14 teachers, 17 people, one of those is BBC news. If anyone else wants to change this please provide a source. Every name is taken12345 23:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * All German media concur that 16 victims excluding the gunman, or 17 including the gunman were killed. Follow the link to the German Wikipedia article ('Deutsch') and note that 16 is the number of victims you will find there. Or count the 16 names on the memorial plaque at http://www.gutenberggymnasium.de/main/gedenken/gedenken.html Tacitus 21:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * So we're just supposed to assume that it was done right on the German Wiki and ignore the English sources? I'm sorry, I don't speak German, but I can tell you that every English source is clearly saying 18 including gunman.  How many names they put on the plaque in that picture hardly seems a trustworthy source.  -Every name is taken12345 22:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

O.k. first of all you do not need to be rude about not knowing German, since it's your shortcoming not the other person's. Second of all here is a newer english source (the BBC) that has the correct death toll that PubliusTacitus was talking about: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1956206.stm And "every English source" seems to be an exaggeration on your part. It is also probably a good idea to go by the German wiki just because it actually happened there. Imagine some French newspapers talked about what happened at Virginia Tech with incorrect numbers. Wouldn't you go by the English wiki rather than the French one? ...Thought so. Anyways, this is a very sad and complicated story and I think we should all handle it with the respect it deserves. Neutralityisimportant (talk) 06:57, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Rainer Heise?
Where does the information on this Rainer Heise, who supposedly stopped the shooting, come from? I've looked through all the sources and the only thing I see is in "How teacher stopped the school slaughter" from The Observer, which says it was a female art teacher who locked him in the room, but does not list either of the quotes on this page. -Every name is taken12345 23:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The Steinhäuser and Heise quotes come from the official report of the commision in charge of the incident. It can be found online here:
 * http://www.thueringer-allgemeine.de/ta/ta_media/ta.KomGut.pdf
 * (German only) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.142.214.248 (talk) 06:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC).

Concerning school laws
In Thuringia Abitur is usually passed after grade 12, so please don't change this to grade 13.

I think this just changed after the Erfurt incident. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember in Bavaria, they just changed it to the so called G-8 (i.e. 8 years instead of 9 in the Gymnasium) about 3 or 4 years ago. Neutralityisimportant (talk) 09:49, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Im most Länder of Germany, the change did happen after the Erfurt school shooting, but I doubt the mayor reasons had to do with it. Nevertheless, Thuringia has had G8 (Abitur after grade 12) ever since (along with Saxony), this hasn't changed with second world war, German reunification or the newly educational “reformation process” (G8) in the rest of Germany. Toscho (talk) 15:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Nothing about Counter-Strike?
Robert Steinhäuser played Counter-Strike often. Please mention this. 199.117.69.60 (talk) 19:36, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Do it your self. either way its not all that relevant.--68.13.147.178 (talk) 08:32, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Continue blindly thinking video games are harmless. That's why these guerilla soldiers train young people with violent video games and movies. 199.117.69.60 (talk) 20:31, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That's nonsense. Cite a credible source for that. You can't train handling guns with a simple video game. Video games don't kill people, guns do. --84.153.94.227 (talk) 01:34, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Photos of victims and shooter
There's a photo of the shooter but none of the victims anywhere. And people wonder why kids do this kind of crap. KevinLuna (talk) 01:20, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Removal of Code names
I feel that inserting the code would be somewhat dangerous, because if it is on wikipedia, a potential shooter could come and see it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lukeyhano (talk • contribs) 10:44, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Faculty members
Are the teachers at a German secondary school called "faculty"? Isn't this a purely American term? Isn't "teachers" more appropriate?Royalcourtier (talk) 20:11, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

A list of massacre victims
We currently have a list of victims of the massacre in the article, most of them teachers and some students. WP:NOTMEMORIAL normally discourages emphases on non-notable people. In this case, shall we remove or retain the list? --George Ho (talk) 08:37, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

In a word,  No Remove. … … btw the analogy with the UK Grammar School, is not helpful. Most of these were abolished in the late '60s, so the term would not be familiar to younger readers. The most distinctive features of a grammar school (usually age 11-18), were that they were academically selective, which I presume is the reason for the comparison. Pincrete (talk) 21:47, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Do you, Pincrete, mean remove or retain? George Ho (talk) 21:54, 7 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Remove I see no information conveyed by having a list. TFD (talk) 05:15, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Remove No encyclopedic information conveyed by the inclusion of the list in question; NOTMEMORIAL is on point here. John from Idegon (talk) 16:26, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Remove - A prime example of WP:NOTMEMORIAL, especially the children who were victims. Meatsgains (talk) 02:39, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 9 May 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved as requested Mike Cline (talk) 13:13, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Erfurt massacre → Erfurt school massacre – Or Gutenberg-Gymnasium Erfurt massacre. This school incident is not more significant than Erfurt massacre (1349), which was a horrific tragedy on the Jewish community in Germany. Also, the base title should become of the disambiguation page. George Ho (talk) 18:14, 9 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Support 'Erfurt school massacre' Much clearer term aside from the 'primary' topic issue: " The title unambiguously identifies the article's subject and distinguishes it from other subjects". Pincrete (talk) 14:39, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Support Erfurt school massacre per nom. I'd rather leave Erfurt massacre redirect here per WP:TWODABS. No such user (talk) 11:44, 16 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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