Talk:Esoteric insignia of the Schutzstaffel

Riddled with Errors
The page is truly terrible! it is riddled with errors and inaccuracies! NONE the SS insignia was based on the Armenen Runes of Von List, if the authors bothered to research properly this would be self evident. it is a matter of historic record that the Nazi's banned all esoteric organisations including the Armenen Orden and imprisioned its leaders. Himmler's 'occult specialist' Karl Maria Wiligut designed the SS's insignia based on existing Futharks as well has his own version of runes which included many of the symbols shown on the page. For verification of these facts consult Stephen Flower's 'The Secret King'(ISBN: 9781932595253) Flowers is a PhD holding lecturer in Germanic Studies. Bill Yenne's book is sensationalist claptrap. This Page should be rewritten from scratch. Ayon707 (talk) 21:46, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Let us be clear; This article is largely based one sensationalist poorly written book by Bill Yenne. its contents runs contrary to a number of publications Including the work of Academic writers and lecturers such as Stephen Flowers and Nicolas Goodrich-Clarke Ayon707 (talk) 22:44, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Different sources
It would be helpful if this article were to include a discussion of how many of these "runes" actually were ancient runes, how many were of relatively recent origin, how many were adaptations of older runes, and how many were simply made up for this purpose. Clearly, these are of a number of different origins, but I sure don't know enough to make the distinction. --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 16:54, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


 * They all derive from List's Armanen runes. Otherwise, you can check for yourself form Elder Futhark—the oldest runic alphabet—onward; you'll find that the inspiration is pretty transparent. &#58;bloodofox: (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


 * They don't all derive from von List - and, in particular, the the SS's use of the yr-rune to mean "death" does not derive from him. In Das Geheimnis der Runen ("The Secret of the Runes") (1908) von List says of the Yr-rune, 'The "yr-rune" is the inverted "man-rune", and as it designates the bow, so too does it present the waxing and waning moon in contrast to the full moon of the "man-rune", and so in the first instance it refers to the mutability of the moon, in the second instance as the "error-rune"-referring to the lunarlike mutability of the feminine essence, portrayed in later verses of the "Havamal".'  (p.19)


 * Where then did the SS get this symbol from?


 * The typographer Rudolf Koch included it in Der Zeichenbuch (1923) but doesn't give any source.  Der Zeichenbuch was first published in English as The Book of Signs in 1930 and there was a popular reprint in 1955. Marshall46 (talk) 13:44, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


 * It appears that this notion originated among von List, Wiligut, or the NSDAP. Most likely it's just an extension of what von List has come up with above, perhaps by analyzing the Younger Futhark out of context with the Elder Futhark and deciding that Maðr (Old Norse "man") represents "life" and thus that its pictographic inversion, Yr (Old Norse "yew"), must also yield a semantic inversion; "death". One could discuss the links to "death" with the yew as well (poison, hanging, etc.). However, to my knowledge, there is no evidence for such concern with the orientation of runic staves in the historical runic record. In the Elder Futhark, *mannaz is the "man" rune and *eihwaz "yew". &#58;bloodofox: (talk) 18:28, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


 * If you read von List, you will see that this notion did not originate with him: I have given a quote from him regarding the yr-rune above. What are your sources for the interpretations you give and what exactly did Wiligut say about the yr-rune? According to the Wikipedia article, the yr-rune did not exist in the Elder Futhark. Marshall46 (talk) 09:37, 28 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I believe I made it fairly clear that yr is not an Elder Futhark rune above. The translations from Proto-Germanic and Old Norse I give above are standard in modern runology; see any reputable scholarly work on the subject matter. While the notion of the "death rune" seems to have originated from the circle I describe above (and, indeed, von List hints as much in the passage you mention, albeit I haven't looked any further into it) and while it has no ancient precedent, there is a possibility that some philologist prior also came to said conclusion due to the implications of 'yew' versus 'man'. &#58;bloodofox: (talk) 18:23, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

article scope
I don't know if it was a good idea to redirect sig (rune) to an article about the SS specifically. Certainly, this is the most widely known use of the Armanen runes, but still, if this article is ostensibly about the SS, it shouldn't propose to embark on a lengthy tangent on the history of the runes in general.

The entire paragraph about runes in Germanic mysticism does not belong here, it belongs in the Armanen runes article. --dab (𒁳) 07:56, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Also, it turns out that the main source this thing appears to be based on, Yenne (2010), is just the usual "Nazi occultism" pop culture cruft and not worth the paper it is printed on.

I suggest this can be salvaged by a split between Armanen runes (the content on the actual use of runes in Nazi Germany, not just the SS), and Uniforms and insignia of the Schutzstaffel (which is already a dedicated article on SS insignia). --dab (𒁳) 08:11, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

SS = ZZ??
SS = mirror of ZZ??

E.g.:


 * The sig rune (or Siegrune) symbolised victory (sieg).

Pronunciations: Z = Zig, Ziegrune, Zieg


 * Z = Zeal / enthusiasm


 * The swastika was inverted?


 * The ZZ was mirrored in SS?

--


 * Are you high? Nuttyskin (talk) 23:25, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Heilszeichen
Isn't the left Heilszeichen symbol essentially the same as the Wolfsangel? Nuttyskin (talk) 23:27, 23 June 2018 (UTC)


 * It could also be interpretet as two sig-runes written close to each other. 2A02:8071:62F1:19A0:B894:110B:F566:7707 (talk) 20:33, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 8 January 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved to Esoteric insignia of the Schutzstaffel. Alternate suggestions uncontested and 'esoteric' is more natural, generic and recognizable. (non-admin closure) Colonestarrice (talk) 18:35, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Runic insignia of the Schutzstaffel → Insignias of the Schutzstaffel – Out of the two sections, one is emphasised to not be runic. It seems odd to specify the page is about runic insignia then have a considerable portion outside of that scope. Expanding the topic will make the title more appropriate, while also avoiding the at least complex topic of whether these symbols are actually "runic" per see. Unsure on whether (or indeed which) pluralisation is best but given that this is acting more as a list article it may be more fitting.Keen to hear thoughts. Ingwina (talk) 14:20, 8 January 2023 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose. The SS had many insignia. See Uniforms and insignia of the Schutzstaffel. This is only a small sub-section. And most are "runic" in any case. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:55, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this page - I wasn't aware of it and have added a link to it. I agree that the proposed title would not be fitting then but maintain that, as you accept, not all the symbols are "runic" or pseudo-runic, it seems odd to inclue on this page those that are not. Given that the second box is entitled "Other esoteric symbols used by the SS", a fitting title could be "Esoteric insginia of the Schutzstaffel". It seems like this has been the criterion against which inclusion of insignia has been measured. Ingwina (talk) 15:02, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

US Marines Snipers?
No mentioning that the US Marines Snipers like to use the SS runes too? 2A02:8071:62F1:19A0:B894:110B:F566:7707 (talk) 20:35, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Lumsden citation
Lumsden appears to be Robin Lumsden, who published a number of books on the SS (and seemed to be an avid collector of ss memorabilia). I found a number of books that he published in PDF form that included the symbols listed on this page, along with very similar verbiage, however I could not find a book that specifically matched the page numbers cited here. The earliest publication I can find that has this cite is Himmler's black order : a history of the SS, 1923-45, published in 1997 (p.146). I'd fix the citations, but I don't see lumsden backing up his claims, in particular missing is any documentation of the eif rune. Jonbro (talk) 03:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The article was created back in 2012 by user:Prioryman. He listed the book The Allgemeine-SS (ISBN 9781855323582) as the Lumsden source. I've re-added this book and cleaned up the citations a bit. If Prioryman still has the book perhaps he can check regarding your concerns. We don't have a copy anywhere in Alberta so I am unable to get it on interlibrary loan. — Diannaa (talk) 16:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)