Talk:European Union roaming regulations

Eurotariff table
Look at User_talk:Dima1

CrZTgR (talk) 15:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Exchange rates
Someone wrote that the 2009-05-06 rates will be used from 2009-07-01 and on, so I filled in those rates. But what happens with the ISK/EUR rate? The ECB is no longer publishing rates for the ISK. Which rate will be used for determining the value of the ISK with regard to this regulation? Will they use the latest rate posted (290 ISK/EUR posted on 2008-12-09) or will they use a different rate? (212.247.11.156 (talk) 19:30, 14 May 2009 (UTC))

Internet
I will remove local prices for Internet that I have calculated, because they don't conсern final subscribers. Moreover, prices for internet provided by one career to another are not shown in the local currencies of that country. So no need to add VAT (and transfer it to all other currencies) to regulated internet price cause it shows nothing. --Dima1 (talk) 07:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Charges excluding VAT
I believe we should quote the local currency equivalent charges excluding VAT, not including VAT, for the following reasons: NFH (talk) 13:19, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Roaming in parts of the EEA which are outside the customs territory of the EU does not incur VAT, for example Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Gibraltar and French overseas departments. (Note that this does not apply to networks that span VAT and non-VAT regions such as mainland Spanish networks in the Canaries etc)
 * Most phone bills are itemised excluding VAT with an overall VAT charge applied to the total of the bill. It's easier to check individual charges if we quote per-minute rates excluding VAT.
 * Most businesses don't ultimately pay VAT anyway.
 * Some users pay VAT while other users don't pay VAT. In most cases, individuals pay VAT, so it may be useful to list the prices both including and excluding VAT. By the way, are you certain of the non-EUVAT roaming part? When I went to Mariehamn (Finland, outside the EU VAT area) a few months ago, the SMS informing me of roaming prices listed the same prices as the SMS informing me of roaming prices in Denmark that I got a couple of weeks later. The prices were within the maximum rate if VAT is charged but not if VAT is not charged. (Stefan2 (talk) 09:35, 8 September 2011 (UTC))
 * Yes, I'm sure about this. VAT is not applied for telecommunications services enjoyed outside the EU VAT area as a consequence of a derogation from Article 9(1) of Council Directive 77/388 (OJ No. L145, 13.6.1997, p.1) (“the Sixth VAT Directive”) made by Council Decision 6236/97 (OJ No. L86, 28.3.97, p. 33). This is enacted in the UK, for example, under Article 19 of the Value Added Tax (Place of Supply of Services) Order 1992. NFH (talk) 15:35, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * UK legislation is making an exception here. The 6th VAT directive states (Article 9(3)):
 * "3. In order to avoid double taxation, non-taxation or the distortion of competition the Member States may, with regard to the supply of services referred to in 2 (e) and the hiring out of movable tangible property consider:


 * (a) the place of supply of services, which under this Article would be situated within the territory of the country, as being situated outside the Community where the effective use and enjoyment of the services take place outside the Community;


 * (b) the place of supply of services, which under this Article would be situated outside the Community, as being within the territory of the country where the effective use and enjoyment of the services take place within the territory of the country."
 * This means that if you're roaming inside the EU VAT area, you always have to pay VAT in your home country; If you're roaming outside the EU VAT area, you usually have to pay VAT in your home country - unless national legislation makes an exception. The UK has made such an exception in their national law, but other countries may not have that. -- 2001:A60:18EE:1100:356A:1A4C:6F0F:E8FB (talk) 19:20, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I just checked the council decision 6236/97 (OJ No. L86, 1997-03-28, p. 33). It is not easy to find as the official online version is apparently just a scan. (Link: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/JOHtml.do?uri=OJ:L:1997:086:SOM:EN:HTML) The decision does solely *authorize* the United Kingdom to make the exception. It doesn't order the UK to do this - it just allows this. On the same day, 14 other EU members were given similar permissions by the EU council (just look at the same OJ issue), so the UK is not the only country which is (or rather was) allowed to make such an exception. However, I think that Council decision 6236/1997 is no longer relevant today as Council Directive 77/388, Article 9(3) allows any country to make such an exception. -- 2001:A60:18EE:1100:356A:1A4C:6F0F:E8FB (talk) 19:54, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I forgot to comment on the phone bill part. If you use a prepaid phone service, you usually don't get a normal phone bill where different costs are itemised. Instead, you just notice that the costs covering your phone usage have been charged from your phone balance. The only way for me to check how much a specific call has costed me is to make a balance enquiry before the call and write down the balance, make the call and then make another balance enquiry, comparing the two amounts and calculating the difference. No calling history is available. (Stefan2 (talk) 09:41, 8 September 2011 (UTC))
 * First, the EU VAT area is NOT identical to the EU customs area. For instance, Turkey is part of the EU customs area by bilateral agreement whereas it is not part of the EU VAT area. The same applies to Switzerland. Then, Gibraltar and most of the French oversea territories ARE in fact part of the EU VAT area. They may have a different VAT sentence than the mainland, but they are part of the EU VAT system. In this case, however, it may make sense to quote different rates for these territories. Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway have VAT systems of their own which are very similar to the EU VAT system. So it makes sense to quote rates for these countries with VAT included. Then, whether a phone bill is excluding VAT or including VAT may vary between operators, countries and plans. Yes, some mobile providers may choose to issue their bills in different ways depending on whether they are invoicing a business or a private customer. However, I would also like to mention that (at least here in Germany) businesses are always required to quote their prices with VAT included unless they have made sure that they are talking to a business customer. So rates (or rather, prices for anything, whatever it is) that exclude VAT are useless to me. I would always have to type [rate]*1.19 into a calculator before I could compare them to anything else. However, I wonder whether mobile subscribers based on Heligoland (that's a small, VAT-exempt German island) have to pay VAT on cell service. -- 62.156.55.33 (talk) 20:09, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * "First, the EU VAT area is NOT identical to the EU customs area" - correct, and this was my mistake; I should have stated the EU VAT area. However, the territories that I list are excluded from the EU VAT area, and this is what is relevant. Many mobile networks around Europe make billing errors with regard to this, so we should not base this on anecdotal evidence but on the regulations as they stand. NFH (talk) 15:35, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, pre-paid phones. I got another question: If you buy credit for your prepaid phone (assuming you have a UK-based subscription) and you use it in Heligoland, Guernsey or Somalia, what happens to VAT then? Your home network has to pay VAT on your credit when you BUY it, not when you USE it, so when you roam at the other end of the world, you already have paid VAT. What do they do then? Go to the treasury and request a refund? Do you have to return the receipt they gave you when you bought credit (It will show how much VAT you have paid)? -- 2001:A60:18EE:1100:356A:1A4C:6F0F:E8FB (talk) 19:53, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

The article says: "Note that customers of home networks in the EU VAT area are not charged VAT when roaming outside the EU VAT area, as a consequence of a derogation from Article 9(1) of Council Directive 77/388 (OJ No. L145, 13.6.1997, p.1) ("the Sixth VAT Directive") made by Council Decision 6236/97 (OJ No. L86, 28.3.97, p. 33) [27]. This means that roaming on networks in Åland, Gibraltar, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and French overseas departments is subject to the regulations but without VAT, because these territories are within the EEA but outside the EU VAT area. Where a network spans territory both inside and outside the EU VAT area (e.g. in Spain), VAT is charged in practice when roaming in the part outside the EU VAT area." This would mean that if I travel to Heligoland, Guernsey, Nigeria or China (all of these territories are outside the EU VAT area) I would not have to pay VAT on my Germany based phone subsription. I seriously doubt this - my phone company quotes rates for roaming (or non-roaming, in the case of Heligoland) in these areas including German VAT, not excl. VAT. I rather think that the article is wrong about this - whether VAT is applicable or not does only depend on where he lives but not on where he's roaming. Another question: Has anybody from outside the EU VAT area ever encountered being charged VAT for roaming in the EU VAT area? -- 62.156.44.224 (talk) 16:14, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * UK networks usually publish their charges as "including VAT where applicable". Therefore the advertised price for roaming outside the EU VAT area excludes VAT. I would guess that German networks do something similar. If you are being charged VAT for roaming outside the EU VAT area, then you need to dispute this with your network. NFH (talk) 19:29, 27 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The 6th VAT directive (77/388/EEC) states:


 * "Article 9


 * Supply of services


 * 1. The place where a service is supplied shall be deemed to be the place where the supplier has established his business or has a fixed establishment from which the service is supplied or, in the absence of such a place of business or fixed establishment, the place where he has his permanent address or usually resides.


 * 2. However:


 * [...]


 * (e) the place where the following services are supplied: when performed for customers established outside the Community or for taxable persons established in the Community but not in the same country as the supplier, shall be the place where the customer has established his business or has a fixed establishment to which the service is supplied or, in the absence of such a place, the place where he has his permanent address or usually resides:


 * [...]


 * — Telecommunications. Telecommunications services shall be deemed to be services relating to the transmission, emission or reception of signals, writing, images and sounds or information of any nature by wire, radio, optical or other electromagnetic systems, including the related transfer or assignment of the right to use capacity for such transmission, emission or reception. Telecommunications services within the meaning of this provision shall also include provision of access to global information networks,


 * [...]" (Source: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:1977L0388:20060101:EN:PDF


 * As you can see here, the directive does explicitly say that telecommunication is considered to be supplied at your home or at the network operator's premises, not at your actual location. This does also mean that you have to pay VAT in your home country, not in the country you're visiting. -- 2001:A60:18EE:1100:99DC:3D58:5DB8:ADFB (talk) 21:25, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Regulation (EC) No 717/2007
The regulation can be found here: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2007:171:0032:0032:EN:PDF

It contains no mention about the euro / megabyte cap on data roaming. What document contains that info? --Sigmundur (talk) 12:50, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

This regulation ammends 717/2007 to include limits on wholesale regulated data roaming services: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:167:0012:0023:EN:PDF --gregsnell —Preceding undated comment added 14:52, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Wrong exchange rates
This article states that the exchange rates used should be the exchange rates posted by the ECB on certain dates. This appears to be wrong; it seems that the rates posted in the Official Journal of the European Union on the specified dates should be used instead. These rates are different from the ECB rates. For example, compare the 2011 Journal rates with the ECB ones. For example, the rate for SEK is 8.8932 in the Journal but 8.8890 in the ECB listing. It seems that the Journal might be using the ECB rates from the previous day. This means that the Journal rate allows an outgoing per-minute price of 3.89 crowns whereas the ECB rate does not. Telia uses 3.89 crowns for EU countries (go to and select "Danmark" in the drop-down list), so 3.89 crowns must be allowed. (212.247.11.156 (talk) 11:56, 6 July 2011 (UTC))
 * For example, check page 4 under "Charges in currencies other than the Euro" or . (212.247.11.156 (talk) 12:01, 6 July 2011 (UTC))
 * Telia Sweden or any other operator's web-site is not relevant source of information. I have put sources that prices for non-eurozone countries for 2011-2012 are calculated based on 1 June 2011 exchange rates, for 2010-2011 based on 1 June 2010 exchange rates. --Dima1 (talk) 12:28, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * This is an old source of information from 2008. The rules, regarding dates from where exchange rates are taken, have changed since then. --Dima1 (talk) 12:32, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Seems you were right. Exchange rates are taken from EU Journal published one month before rules apply. But EU Journal publish ECB exhange rates for the day that preceeded the day of publication. I'll try to correct this error in the article later today.--Dima1 (talk) 12:57, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅. --Dima1 (talk) 13:54, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

The exchange rates still look wrong. For example, take these EUR/GBP rates: All the UK networks and Ofcom are currently using 0.82930, but the page says the current rate is 0.83025. I propose deleting the exchange rate table until someone can provide the correct data which used to be correct. It's better to have no data than wrong data. NFH (talk) 12:18, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

"General information" section
I have just made some edits to the "General information" section. I have mainly made two kinds of changes: I'm not currently happy with the section, though. It is still too long and too messy. (Stefan2 (talk) 09:52, 8 September 2011 (UTC))
 * Future tense changed into past tense (e.g. "Something will happen in 2009" -> "Something happened in 2009"). Obviously, the text was written in the past and not updated to past tense when the things happened.
 * Removal of unimportant information. Some of the text was a repetition of the price caps in the tables shown below. I thought that this information was uninteresting to have in the "General information" section, and besides it was already available elsewhere in the article.

Redirects
Why does Telecommunications in the European Union redirect here? This is not the only article on EU telecommunications on Wikipedia, nor even the most important, and in particular at least one reference to 2002/21/EC, which doesn't have anything to do with roaming charges. I don't know how to mess around with redirects, but there should either be an actual article there that deals with the history of EU telecoms regulation, or else it should point to Telecoms Package, which is at least a comprehensive overview. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.71.103.242 (talk) 18:02, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Wholesale rates
This article quotes regulated wholesale rates, I have several questions about these: -- 62.156.55.33 (talk) 22:03, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see what is included with the rate for outbound calls. Does this include termination on the destination network? Or are calls routed from the visited network to the home network which has to buy termination from the destination network?
 * What does an inbound call cost?
 * Which operators do these rates apply to? Do they apply to the roaming agreement between the home network and the visited network? Or do they apply to resale agreements between the home network and resellers? Or do they apply to alternative roaming providers which have to compete with the home network?

out of date numbers
the prices for the new stages of the regulations seem to be out of date. The story below contradicts the numbers in the table (published 28th march 2012).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17539421

can't find anything more official on any EU website to support it though. Nicoli nicolivich (talk) 22:00, 28 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Here is the Commission Press Release from yesterday:


 * http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO%2F12%2F227&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en


 * I have updated the numbers but would be grateful if someone else could crosscheck. Especially somewhat unclear whether the wholesale caps apply after 2017. --SmilingBoy (talk) 12:33, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Inbound call wholesale rates
I just took a look at the EU regulation because I wanted to find the regulated wholesale rates for inbound calls - and I think I found them. They are not easy to find. The regulation states:

"1. The average wholesale charge that the operator of a visited network may levy from the operator of a roaming customer's home network for the provision of a regulated roaming call originating on that visited network, inclusive inter alia of origination, transit and termination costs, shall not exceed EUR 0,30 per minute.

2. The average wholesale charge referred to in paragraph 1 shall apply between any pair of operators and shall be calculated over a twelve-month period or any such shorter period as may remain before the end of the period of application of a maximum average wholesale charge as provided for in this paragraph or the expiry of this Regulation. The maximum average wholesale charge shall decrease to EUR 0,28 and EUR 0,26, on 30 August 2008 and on 1 July 2009 respectively and shall further decrease to EUR 0,22 and EUR 0,18, on 1 July 2010 and on 1 July 2011 respectively.

3. The average wholesale charge referred to in paragraph 1 shall be calculated by dividing the total wholesale roaming revenue received by the total number of wholesale roaming minutes sold for the provision of wholesale roaming calls within the Community by the relevant operator over the relevant period. The operator of the visited network shall be permitted to make a distinction between peak and off-peak charges. However, with effect from 1 July 2009, the average wholesale charge referred to in paragraph 1 shall be calculated by dividing the total wholesale roaming revenue received by the total number of wholesale roaming minutes actually used for the provision of wholesale roaming calls within the Community by the relevant operator over the relevant period, aggregated on a per second basis adjusted to take account of the possibility for the operator of the visited network to apply an initial minimum charging period not exceeding 30 seconds."

This means:

1. The price that is given in paragraph 1 does only apply to outbound calls. ("originating on that visited network")

2. Termination of an outbound call on the called party's network is included. ("inclusive inter alia of origination, transit and termination costs")

3. The two network operators can agree on a wholesale tariff where some calls (e.g. at peak hours) are more expensive than the price cap allows. However, some calls have to be cheaper in exchange for that; If the annual wholesale bill turns out to be more expensive than allowed by the price cap, then the home network only has to pay the maximum tariff. For example: The maximum wholesale rate is €0.30/min. The two networks agree that peak-time calls shall be charged at €0.40/min and off-peak calls shall cost €0.20/min. Now if the customers generate 500,000 min of off-peak calls plus 100,000 min of peak-time calls, the annual wholesale bill would amount to €140,000. The permitted maximum in this case would be (500,000+100,000)*€0.30 = €180,000. So the home network only has to pay €140,000 because €140,000 is below the permitted maximum. Now let's assume it's the other way round: 100,000 off-peak minutes and 500,000 peak minutes. That makes €220,000. And that is above the permitted maximum of €0.30/min*600,000min=€180,000. In the latter case, the home network only has to pay the €180,000. (Paragraph 3)

4. Charging for inbound calls on the wholesale level is allowed (it isn't prohibited explicity, so it's allowed); However, these fees are counted towards the price cap that applies to outbound calls ("dividing the total wholesale roaming revenue received by the total number of wholesale roaming minutes sold" includes the wholesale fees of all calls), so the visited network has to reduce their outbound charges if they want to charge for inbound calls, i. e. if they charge €50,000 for inbound calls, the fees for outbound calls have to be at least €50,000 below the limit. In other words, this means that the visited network cannot charge for inbound calls; They can only offer a discount on outbound calls that may depend on the ratio of outbound vs. inbound calls - i.e. home networks that create a lot of inbound calls get no discount (e.g. mobilkom Austria) and home networks that have only few inbound calls get a higher discount (e.g. Hutchison 3G Austria). For this reason, I think that we should quote the wholesale rate for inbound calls at 0 ct/min.

-- 2001:A60:18EE:1100:3C10:5B3:23DD:D46 (talk) 23:00, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I was wrong, there is nothing to read between the lines of the regulation. After some googling, I found an OECD document which says that wholesale inbound rates are the same as domestic termination rates. I have updated the article accordingly. -- 2001:A60:18EE:1100:5859:4759:18F2:2B19 (talk) 22:11, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

15 December 2015 roaming deadline
Took me a little while to find them, so lets put them here until they can be worked into the article:



—Sladen (talk) 11:22, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

An anon added "From 15 december 2015 there will be no roaming chargers anymore in EU. This thanks to a EU law" to the article, with the source. user:Unbuttered_Parsnip then removed the reference for to me unknown reasons, but kept the claim. But that article seems confused, since it is actually the commission who decides, not the parliament. And I can't find any news sources saying that the commission has decided what to do. Thue (talk) 21:38, 21 December 2014 (UTC)


 * The Commission only proposes laws, it does not make them. They need to approved by both the Council and Parliament. 15 December 2015 will only happen if the Council approve the proposed law without amendment which they appear unlikely to do. There's no EU law yet just a proposal. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 22:22, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

New wholesale rates
The page already lists the new retail rates for roaming. The new wholesale roaming rates are missing. Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.97.98.1 (talk) 14:55, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

The regulations do NOT implement real "roam like at home"
There seems to be a widespread misconception that these regulations implement "roam like at home" service. (the EU roaming-tariffs website uses this phrase)  This is not the case.

The issue is what is the "domestic price" which the regulations use as their baseline. Most people would think that the "domestic price" is the price that they would pay for an equivalent length domestic call. This is not how "domestic price" is interpreted by suppliers or the regulator, at least the UK regulator, Ofcom.

The vast majority of users pay for domestic calls as part of a "bundle" or "inclusive minutes", for example 300 minutes per month included in the monthly rental rate. This means that when "at home" calls up to this limit do not incur an additional charge. There is a separate, and usually quite- to very- high rate for "out of bundle" calls. Most people never pay this rate, or think about it, because they stay within their bundle limit. Real "roam like at home" would take the time for roaming calls from the user's monthly limit, just like domestic calls. This is not what happens / will happen after June 2017. What happens / will happen is that roaming calls are, and will be charged at the "out of bundle" rate, even if the user has plenty of "inclusive minutes" left. As an example, the current O2 out-of-bundle rate is 45 pence sterling per minute for domestic calls. The only change that will be implemented in June 2017 is that the additional roaming charge, currently 5 euro cents per minute (on top of 45 pence sterling) will reduce to 0 euro cents. The 45 pence per minute charge, which is unregulated, will remain. Because these rates are rarely used (people stay within their "inclusive minutes"), they have not been brought down by competition and remain very high. There is also nothing in the regulations to stop the suppliers increasing these rates.

Users who use their phone "like at home" while roaming will find that their bill is very far from being "like at home". By the way, this interpretation of the regulations has been verified by Ofcom.

87.113.18.63 (talk) 17:06, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Reverted move
I've just reverted Wikidea's move to Roaming Regulation 2012. I cannot find any mention of this supposed "proper" name that isn't an obvious mirror of Wikipedia, and moreover, it's nnot even as accurate as the previous title as a description: the article deals with multiple regulations from the very first one to the most recent, and neither the first nor the most recent was that of 2012. - Estoy Aquí (talk) 23:25, 21 March 2018 (UTC)