Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2025

Switzerland

There is no source given for Switzerland's participation. I get it we take for granted that the host country participates, but hosting and participating are two separate processes. Even if it's unlikely - it would be a first if a host country doesn't participate - we cannot include it as long as there is no source for it. So I have removed it for now. And I wonder if the Swiss broadcaster even accepted the offer to host the Contest? Seems we're just assuming here as well. Hhl95 (talk) 08:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

The fact that cities such as Geneva & Basel have already announced their intention to bid to host, as well as this article confirming that meetings at SRG SSR have began over hosting duties essentially confirms Switzerland's participation. (the article in question is https://eurovoix.com/2024/05/13/eurovision-2025-meetings-commence/) Violatie (talk) 09:12, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I saw your edit. The article only covers hosting though, not participation. Hhl95 (talk) 09:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

If a country is hosting Eurovision, they are participatingat Eurovision, that is a rule in place and it feels like we are moving the goalposts here to not call this a confirmation of participation. Violatie (talk) 09:39, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

No, that is not a rule. It just has never happened before that a host country did not also participate. So the goalpost is right there. Hhl95 (talk) 10:18, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

It is utterly nonsensical to exclude Switzerland because they've confirmed they're hosting not participating. No country has ever hosted ESC and not participated, Switzerland hasn't ever voluntarily withdrawn from the competition, and spending hundreds of thousands of Euros on hosting just to not participate is stupid, it wouldn't make sense and there's a reason it's never happened before, that's why nearly every year the winning country confirming they're hosting has been a confirmation of participation on Wikipedia. Violatie (talk) 10:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

That's just a sum of assumptions. Wikipedia is only for sourced information, we cannot just assume that something happens because it never did not happen before. Such assumption is what is non-sensical. Switzerland has to be excluded from the list until there is a source that covers a confirmation of Swiss participation. Nothing is granted in the future, and especially not in Eurovision, as we noticed this year as well. Hhl95 (talk) 13:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Well no, that's not true. Wikipedia has its own page of "rules of Eurovision" where it specifically states that "The contest is organised by the EBU, together with the participating broadcaster of the host country, and is overseen by the Reference Group on behalf of all participating broadcasters," the source is a page on Eurovision's own website about the organisation of the contest. This is proof enough that Switzerland will participate as they will host. Violatie (talk) 05:18, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

No, it is not. The way it is phrased on that Wikipedia page, is not how it is phrased on Eurovision's own website. Eurovision simply talks about "a host broadcaster and around 40 participating broadcasters". So hosting and participating are two different tracks and there is no rule that the host broadcaster also participates.

And even if this doesn't convince you, on Wikipedia we do need to have our information sourced. So that is enough reason to cancel out Switzerland as long as there is no source covering Switzerland's participation. And it is all only preliminary until the EBU publishes the official list of participants, so there is absolutely no harm in leaving Switzerland out as long as there is no source covering it. Hhl95 (talk) 09:47, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

There is very much harm in leaving Switzerland off the list, every other Wikipedia had the host country listed as participating before their selection methods were announced, so why should we change that just because you personally disagree with that sentiment? A general consensus would need to be met but the general consensus is Switzerland will participate because they're hosting as spending hundreds of thousands of Euros on an event you won't participate in is stupid plus the EBU would never let the host country not participate, there's a reason that when Israel couldn't participate in 1980, they didn't host either. Violatie (talk) 09:52, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Very much harm, what exactly? We have one rule here and that is that information on Wikipedia needs to be sourced accurately. The money isn't really an argument. As I explained, hosting and participating are two different tracks. The money that is spent on hosting is separate from the money that is spent on participating. The reason for Israel was that they had a holiday. That means that they couldn't participate, and they could not host also because of that holiday. Not because they didn't participate. And regarding the EBU, we have seen this year that the EBU can disqualify a country without any serious explanation, so I wouldn't place my bets on the EBU to never block a host entry from participating. What if Switzerland sends a political entry and is unwilling to change it? Switzerland will still host, but would not be allowed to participate. These are just hypothetical examples of course, but not impossible. And it shows that it is only just speculation if we assume that a host country participates for the fact that they are hosting. We just cannot assume that and we need an accurate source nevertheless. Hhl95 (talk) 10:02, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, this makes near 0 sense. The EBU would only disqualify a host entry if they break the rules they create, in which case why even bother with having any countries on this list? By your own criteria no country has confirmed participation at all because no delegation has explicitly said "we are participating," what they have done instead is begin preparations for their selections for Eurovision 2025. If it were up to your criteria then Portugal, Malta, Spain, Denmark, and Finland all shouldn't be on the participants list, and again, it is an unspoken rule that the host country participates, there's a reason that no one has brought up your argument before, and that's because it makes 0 sense. Hosting Eurovision is expensive, and host countries don't have to pay the participation fee, so why host an event you won't even participate in? And do you actually believe the EBU would allow a country who's not participating to host? Violatie (talk) 10:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

The countries listed, all have a source with them that explicitly confirms their participation. Simply preparations are not enough, that's why many of the countries in the "Other countries" list have also been removed (not by me btw). And yes, if a country is already far in preparations for hosting and then happens to send an entry that has to be banned, the EBU is not going to change the location to another country on short notice. Hhl95 (talk) 11:59, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

That’s cool and all, but any country can be disqualified at any time, so why even have a participants list here at all? The reason is because the page will be outdated within a few weeks. Wikipedia’s purpose is to give out the facts on a certain subject. With Eurovision, fact is that at a current time, we have a number of countries making preparations to compete or host, and to host Eurovision you must participate, and again, if you’re so certain that Switzerland should be removed, why wasn’t Sweden removed in May 2023 following their Eurovision win? At that stage they hadn’t confirmed participation, just that they would host Eurovision. The idea to exclude the host country from the participants list because they haven’t “explicitly stated we will participate” is frankly, stupid, because at that point we’d have to remove many countries from the list and it would become outdated. Violatie (talk) 20:18, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

This list cannot be outdated as it is preliminary. The participants are only sure when the EBU publishes the list of participants, which is usually in October. That is why every participant that we add now, needs to be sourced clearly and explicitly. We have gotten used to adding those countries as soon as there is confirmation, but one could argue that it is not encyclopaedic as long as it is preliminary. So that is already a weak basis. There is absolutely no urgency to have a complete list now. So countries that are unsourced, have no place in the list. Unsourced information doesn't have a place on Wikipedia anyways. Hhl95 (talk) 22:07, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Switzerland is not gonna host the show whilist not participating, so if we write they are the host, of course we should write that they will participate. Thomediter (talk) 22:27, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

We can write that if we can provide a source with it that states so. Which is not the case with the source you added. Hhl95 (talk) 00:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

As Eurovision host countries always participated in the past, I think it’s safe to say that we can use the same source that says Switzerland will host ESC to confirm its participation. Sure, as you mentioned before, maybe Switzerland will get disqualified for sending a political entry (which is quite unlikely coming from Switzerland), but we can take Switzerland off the list when/if that happens. After all, Finland, Malta or Portugal could all send political entries and be disqualified, but they are still included in the provisional list. For now, Switzerland’s participation is confirmed. Ludo.omt (talk) 03:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

For Finland, Malta and Portugal there is a source confirming their participation. Not for Switzerland. Hhl95 (talk) 08:05, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

So you want the article to be outdated because no one "explicitly states participation"? That makes no sense, and given how you're the only one who seems to have an issue with Switzerland being on the list I kindly ask you to stop removing them from the article as it's causing an edit war and the general consensus is to leave them where they are. Violatie (talk) 05:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Did you even read what I wrote? It cannot be outdated as it is only preliminary. And any information on Wikipedia needs to be sourced accurately, that is the basic rule of Wikipedia. So you'll have to find a source where it says that a host country automatically participates, or a source that explicitly confirms Swiss participation. There is no other way we can include Switzerland in the list. Hhl95 (talk) 08:07, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I would have to agree here. Since it's a preliminary list, and we know at this stage that Switzerland intends to host, another reference which explicitly states that Switzerland intends to participate is still required. WP:CRYSTAL applies here, and to take "hosting = participation" at a rule would be a WP:SYNTH violation. There's a hypothetical situation, however remote, where the Swiss broadcaster may decide they don't want to host and then decide not to participate at all, which has happened before (see Eurovision Song Contest 1980). Even if it looks a bit odd not to say that Switzerland is participating in a country they're hosting, since Wikipedia is built upon referencing and sourcing, if we don't have the sources then it can't be included. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 08:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

So we expect SRG SSR to reach out to fan sites to say "Yes we're participating" even though they're focusing on hosting right now? No other country has done this and at no other time in a Eurovision Wikipedia article have we done this, it feels very unnecessary, as if we need to take everything too literally for a participation confirmation, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Israel ever confirmed they would host Eurovision 1980 at any point? Swiss broadcaster SRG SSR have already confirmed in numerous articles about hosting the contest that they are definitely hosting and evaluating all potential bids, so the comparison to Eurovision 1980 feels inaccurate here. Violatie (talk) 08:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Since I used the How It Works page in the May 2025 section below, I suppose it's just as valid here. On this page it says Participating Broadcasters work hard to prepare acts that will qualify from the show’s Semi-Finals, hoping for a ticket to the Saturday night Grand Final where they will join the so-called 'Big Five' broadcasters and Host Broadcaster (usually the broadcaster of the nation than won the previous year). I don't know if this is sufficient proof to include Switzerland in the table, but I would tend to support it if we're also using it for the May dates. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd say this source works if it's used for other information in the article that people could argue "isn't certain." I believe the only reason they added "(usually the broadcaster of the nation that won the previous year)" to the website is because of situations that occur where the winning country can't host (notably in Eurovision Song Contest 1980 and Eurovision Song Contest 2023, however we have confirmation that Switzerland will host, and while hypothetically that could change, literally anything could change from now until May 2025 as we saw with the Dutch participation in Eurovision 2024, and as such I don't think excluding Switzerland for this reason makes a lot of sense. Violatie (talk) 09:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Personally content with the current solution. The added sources do now provide enough support to assume that Switzerland will participate. And if there is going to be a source where Switzerland's participation for 2025 is explicitly confirmed, we can replace the current sources.

It's not that at any point I expected Switzerland to not participate, but we have to back it up with accurate sources, especially in this stage where simply any information about the 2025 Contest is preliminary. Eurovision has a lot of rules, but Eurovision also has a lot of traditions that are not rules. It's important to keep distinguishing between them if we take anything for granted.

And the point of preliminary information is that we have to back up what we know at this point in time. If things change, we back that up with sources that cover that change. There is wide concensus to already start and edit Contest pages before they have taken place, but it's all future information and that is strictly not encyclopaedic. So we have to keep that in mind. Because actual encyclopaedic information is information that cannot change anymore, which means that it lies in the past. So sources are absolutely necessary as we cannot foresee the future. Hhl95 (talk) 08:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

This is the most stupid thing I've ever read. Fighting over nothing, just wasting your time. Finlandestonia (talk) 14:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. Hhl95 (talk) 22:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Relevance of RTL opinion poll to Dutch participation

Tagging in @IceWelder and @Coriovallum on this. I see the section on the Netherlands (entirely consisting of the RTL opinion poll) was removed by IceWelder earlier as "The RTL poll is open to everyone, so it shouldn't have any weight here" and then restored by Coriovallum citing vandalism. I'm leaning towards the information not being included if anyone from anywhere can vote on the poll, but the source links to a 404 post at the moment so no way of knowing if that's true. Figure it's better to discuss here than to edit war over. Toffeenix (talk) 08:40, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Since the poll is not limited to Dutch residents (case and point: I voted in it to test this), the real-time result is likely to be tainted, and the notion that X% of Dutch people voted in a particular manner is likely to be incorrect. Furthermore, this is not a professionally conducted poll, but just an online vote thrown onto that website. If the provider comes out with a fixed result filtered to only include Dutch IPs, the story may be different, but for now it is just the old poll, closed, so I believe it should remain excluded. IceWelder [✉] 11:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I would also be leaning towards not including this, for the very point that IceWelder listed that it's open to everyone and it's not representative of a sizeable enough portion of the population. It leans towards there being undue weight being attached to this one internet poll in my opinion. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 14:57, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Current list/table of potential hosts

I want to make sure that I'm understanding the intentions and function of the current host table and section about potential host locations before I propose changes to it, because I currently don't quite understand the criteria for inclusion.

Basel - Included in table. One source for this is a tweet from Conradin Cramer, president of Basel-Stadt local government. I don't know if it's clear from that tweet that he is referring to Basel city and not Basel-Stadt?

Bern - Not included in table. Body says "the [cantonal] council congratulated Nemo and announced its support in organising the contest in Bern". I assume this is excluded as Bern is a big enough canton that it's not clear which host city this would be?

Biel/Bienne - Not included in table. Interested in co-hosting or being involved in some manner, negotiating with the city of Bern - not enough to include in table for either Biel or Bern?

Fribourg - Not included in table. I can't understand this at all. The Eurovoix article says "The city of Fribourg is currently examining whether or not to bid to host the Eurovision Song Contest 2025", but its citation seems to be that the CEO of a hockey team has said "We are currently analysing and discussing if we could bring Eurovision 2025 to Fribourg" without making it clear who "we" are in this context. And the Eurovoix article links to a Frapp article that says "Fribourg has shown no interest in organizing the competition". But the Eurovoix article says that the local government of Fribourg said "We are asking ourselves if the city could host such an event, notably in terms of accommodation and arena sizes etc" - would this merit inclusion if it can be backed up by another source?

Hope this all makes sense, just not understanding what the table is doing right now. Toffeenix (talk) 08:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Take this with a grain of salt. To me it seems that if a potential host city is to be included in the table, they need at least have expressed that they have launched a bid. If not, it is only a sidenote about cities expressing interest, but never bidding. Marius1603 (talk) 09:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Marius. As in years past, we should only include official bids. "Expressed interest" (especially by random politicians and the like) is non-encyclopedic. Grk1011 (talk) 12:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Also in agreement with Marius and Grk1011. I've gone ahead and removed the table for now, given there are no confirmed bids yet. I expect there will be some news in Swiss/Eurovision media over the next few weeks about actual bids, but until then a table is not required. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 12:31, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Probably should remove the map as well then, which marks the few "former" cities that were on the table. Real Heydavid17 (talk) 14:53, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Israel politicising the contest again?

So there's this Proletären article, which was realesed earlier today, saying Netanyahu got involved to ensure Israel's participation in '25 and threatened to withdraw the sponsor. I stress that I have no idea if this worth adding (hence the section) nor how to add it. Plus we should also note that the news hasn't been released in other media to my knowledge so... Main question is: is it worth adding now, should we wait more sources, or just not add it at all? Yoyo360 (talk) 11:28, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

It's unclear in the article whether the "intervention" was around Israel's participation in 2024, which seems more likely if it is the case, or future participation in 2025. Additionally, as you rightly state, this story isn't being picked up by other media outlets as yet. I'm not 100% certain about the reliability of the source either; it appears to have quite low circulation going by its article, and appears to be a direct outlet for the Swedish Communist Party. Given all these points I would be inclined to back not including it, in either the 2024 or 2025 articles, until the story is picked up by other sources which are more researched and where there is a better understanding of reliability. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 12:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Extremely unreliable article, which doesn't give anything on how the outlet obtained the information, and the phrasing is dubious "Netanyahu must have personally called leading figures in the Eurovision organizer EBU", in addition to the outlet being managed by the Swedish Communist Party. So for the time being do not cite this article unless more reliable outlets pick this up Pdhadam (talk) 16:25, 5 June 2024 (UTC)