Talk:Expatriate

Expat Explorer Survey Needs Cleanup
The "Expat Explorer Survey (2012)" section really needs to be cleaned up, no legend means no meaningful results can be extrapolated from it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.28.158 (talk) 06:43, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Globalization
With increasing globalization the numbers of expats flaoting around the world are certainly increasing. Does anyone have some ideas about the numbers? May be numbers can be given by different categories of expats.

The expat trends section should be removed unless reliable data can be found. The survey cited only samples some 30 people - clearly a very weak sample and serves to only misinform the reader.

There is nothing 'blurry' about the difference between an expatriate and an immigrant. Expatriates owe no allegiance to their host countries, and they are not citizens of those countries. Comparing Asians in Britain (most of whome are British citizens) with British expatriates in Asia (who, by definition, are not citizens of those countries), is not comparing like with like! A British expatriate in Saudi Arabia can be repatriated tomorrow- not so a British Asian in the UK, who has as much right to be there as a returned British expatriate.


 * I disagree - for some people the distinction between expatriate and immigrant is non-existent. International mobility is such (for people who have the necessary resources) that it is possible to be both. Natgoo 18:16, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

one would be an expat of where one comes from and an immigrant of where one goes to. i am also under the impression that to be an expat you must renounce citizenship in your former country; therefore, all expats are immigrants, but not all immigrants are expats.


 * Sorry, that's not the case at all. Note the first line of the article - "a person temporarily or permanently...". A citizen leaving a country temporarily doesn't renounce her citizenship. See . Natgoo 21:14, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

being an expat has nothing to do with renouncing your citizenship, although you could renounce your citizenship and still perhaps be considered an expat. Plus many countries allow dual citizenships or even more simultaneously. Some countries do require just one citizenship...129.132.239.8 19:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm completely mystified by the article. Is somebody from the UK, now living in Spain, an expat or not? Surely an expat is always an emigrant/immigrant, even if only a temporary one? How about somebody from the UK, now retired in France, who has no intention to return to the UK? Tangerine Cossack 11:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


 * You have to remember the definition isn't all inclusive. Immigrants are foreign persons who go to a country to take up perminent residence. Expats are individuals who leave their home country to live elsewhere. They're still immigrants, as they're foreign persons relocating to a country, however they're not necessarily renouncing allegiance or citizenship to their former country. Shadowrun 03:02, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I still don't understand it. Take a look at the Wiktionary article. An expatriate can be somebody who has renounced their former citizenship and country. As far as I can see, nearly every migrant is an expatriate of some other country. The exceptions would be migrants who have no memory or documentation of former countries. This makes parts of the current article nonsense. Tangerine Cossack 19:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't try to apply an overly technical definition to it. The term "immigrant" denotes a large group of people whom I see the term "expatriate" being a definition sub-divided therein. Not all immigrants choose to leave their countries, but expatriates do. Shadowrun 03:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

"not all immigrants leave their countries?"...thats nonsense, the very definition of an immigrant is someone that has left their country to settle in another. It tends to imply intention of permanent settlement. Anyways an expat can be temporary or permanent foreign resident, with or without intention of permanent settlement...129.132.239.8 19:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that one can give the kind of 'hard' definition that appeals to scientists to determine the difference between an expatriate and an immigrant. But they are definitely not the same thing; the words have very different connotations. For instance, my parents live in Moscow because my father works in the British Embassy there. They have no intention of staying there, they aren't particularly integrated into Russian society, and they certainly don't think of it as home. They are expatriates, part of the "ex-pat community" in Moscow.

On the other hand, the wife of a former boss of mine was born in Russia but has moved to the UK. She's married (obviously) a British man, had children here, and has no intention of living in Russia, though she does go back occasionally to see family. As far as she is concerned, Britain is now her home. She is thus an immigrant.

Those are kind of ends-of-the-spectrum cases, and there's bound to be some blurring in the middle. But that doesn't mean the words are interchangeable, even if you have a case where they could both arguably apply. By picking one, you're implying which of the two situations above you think that person is closer to; if you don't want to make such an implication you have to choose your phrasing very carefully, not just choose "immigrant" or "expat" at random and claim they're equivalent. Such are the joys of the English language. PeteVerdon 18:51, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I know this debate is quite old.. but consider the following.. (1) An American moves to Japan to teach English for at least 5 years. Is she an expat or a migrant worker? (2) A Mexican comes to California for seasonal farm work. She has no intention of staying there permanently, and she isn't particularly integrated into American society. Is she an expat or an immigrant? (3) A Chinese student gets hired by a multinational corporation after graduating from a US college, but his intention is to go back to Shanghai after 3 years. Expat, immigrant, or migrant worker? The answer is as follows (1) She is an expat, as no American will ever identify himself/herself as a migrant worker. That's not something that Americans do. (2) She is a seasonal migrant worker. While she has all the intentions to go back home after the season, Mexicans aren't commonly labeled "expats." (3) Same as the answer number two. the term "expat" only applies to the Westerners and (sometimes) the Japanese (even the Wikipedia article says so). What can be the problem with this way of classifying people? Hmmmm   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.46.234.2 (talk) 06:30, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yet, somebody made a comment above "i am also under the impression that to be an expat you must renounce citizenship in your former country; therefore, all expats are immigrants, but not all immigrants are expats.". This is exactly the opposite of what you say. If a word can't be defined, I don't see how it can be used, except in situations where the author is only trying to seed confusion. Tangerine Cossack 20:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't really like to say it, but I'm afraid that other person is simply mistaken. He did indicate that he wasn't sure of himself ('under the impression').PeteVerdon 19:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Dictionaries seem to favour something along the lines of "a person who lives outside their native country." Tangerine Cossack 20:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * By this definition, the Russian woman above would be an immigrant to the UK and also an expatriate of Russia. This doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Tangerine Cossack 21:08, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Expatriates are not immigrants, they technically don't migrate either. They're just the peculiar guests that never go home, mostly because they are uncomfortable when they are home.  You must consider the fact that the expatriate lifestyle is rather much older than you think.  In the days before passports (a development after WWI with the League of Nations), especially in Europe, people didn't consider divisions by national boundaries (even in the days of the emerging nation-state) and felt divided only in terms of class.  The upper classes, across national division, were actually well connected.  See for instance Renoir's movie Grand Illusion (1936) for a prime example of this.  The entire principle of the expatriate today is very similar in sentiment to the cosmopolitan nature of the upper classes in pre WWI society.  The lifestyle is seen as more unique now, only because the lower classes have fallen around this notion of "nationality" that perverts and limits the extent of their worldview.  In order to understand expatriates, you have to understand the Cosmopolitan Sensibility. &mdash;ExplorerCDT 22:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

you cant generalize so much about expats, there are all sorts, some always do have the intention of returning to their "home" country at some point, some dont. some are just on work assignment abroad so fall into the expat community of their home nation, some are visiting for medium to long durations, some have left because they arent happy living in their home country...129.132.239.8 19:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm, so would it be fair to say that only the upper and middle classes can be expats? The working classes become economic immigrants or guest workers instead? I'm still trying to work out whether I'm suposed to be an expat myself: I don't life in my country of birth. Tangerine Cossack 10:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've rarely seen lower classes do so. Initially, living abroad as an expat does take some startup capital, which often the lower classes cannot muster. Sure, in the long run, the life is cheaper than say living in the US, or UK, as a native, but that first year or so, setting up a new life abroad, is make or break...and usually the lower classes are broke before they would have a chance to start. Secondly, the lower classes usually don't have the expansive education needed to appreciate such a lifestyle.  If you notice in history, most of the expats that are rather famous (like the Lost Generation folks in the 1920s), are either Ivy Leaguers, intellectual, or pseudo-intellectuals.  Usually upper class.  I won't say it's impossible, but it is very infrequent.  Perhaps part of the bias is that lower classes are not generally thought of doing anything but emigrating as steerage (the new form of which seems to be Hispanics crossing the desert southern border of the U.S.). &mdash;ExplorerCDT 16:28, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

i dont know about that, its specifically the lower classes that form large parts of the expat communities as well as more wealthy citizens, a lower class american can still easily muster the cash to buy a plane ticket somewhere and live for a while, plus they may find some work in the new locale, in europe we have large expat communities of africans that were truly in desperate poverty more than the poorest american ever could be, yet manage somehow to travel here, and then settle either temporarily or long term, there are vast expat communities in europe of people that were the lowest of the lower classes...129.132.239.8 19:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Note that far from all ex-pats 'never go home'. My parents, and all their various Air Force and Army friends who've lived abroad from time to time, have all gone (or will go) home. On the other hand, I also have some relatives living in Africa who I think are unlikely to come back here before they die. They'd regard themselves as ex-pats, though - I'm quite certain they don't see themselves as even partly African, so they can hardly be immigrants. As far as they're concerned they're British people who just happen to live in Africa. They'd fit very well into ExplorerCDT's 'Cosmopolitan Upper Classes' model. PeteVerdon 19:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I spent a lot of the last few years abroad, ex-patting. But I still can't explain it (adequately, that is). Yeah, eventually they do go home, but when expats go abroad, the end of their adventure abroad isn't usually planned out, never a thought. I was comparing them to guest that never leave. Eventually, being guests, they have to, but it just drags on and on and on. When they do go home, it's "Well, when I was..." and the nostalgia trip and "well, they do things better over there" is just as odious as their guest-ship. If an ex-pat is from country a, and travels to country b, it's because they don't fit into the mold of country a, and they never do fully assimilate into country b. In order to be an immigrant, there has to be an attempt and a desire to integrate into country b (even if not complete), and expats just don't seem to attempt or desire. It's like a benign growth. Though, the cosmopolitan aspect is an identification above national identities. They're just there. The entire concept of third-culture kids fits well with the parents. They're an altogether different culture. &mdash;ExplorerCDT 23:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

i dont know, i think everyone is trying to generalize way too much, there are all sorts of expats, some just want to be an expat for a year or two, some never planned on being an expat but end up liking their new situation and stay many years or forever, many do try and gain citizenship and status to their new locale, yet may maintain connection to their home or original country, expat implies they do have some connection to another country whether or not they like that country or are in allegiance to it anymore, they spent some time their at least and have some characteristics of that older country they were living in or they have parents from their or something, after enough generations i suppose a US family living abroad would not necessarily be considered expat anymore, yet they could be and still could have US citizenships even many generations later, they could even be most loyal to that original land, or to the new one, or some combination...129.132.239.8 19:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Military and government personnel stationed in a foreign country are not seen as expatriates because they work for their home country.

This isn't entirely accurate. While I would agree that certain military personnel stationed in a foreign country would not be seen as expatriates, particularly those involved in active military operations, other such personal may be considered expats. For example, many of the American military stationed in Germany in locations such as Ramstein, Kaiserslautern, and Baumholder (and their dependants) view themselves as expats. Likewise, as a diplomat stationed abroad for my country, I consider myself to be an expat, and socialize extensively within the expat community in my locations of assignment. I think the salient distinction is where the government personnel live. Military personnel that live on a military base, or diplomatic personel that live on a compound, may view themselves less frequently as expats than those that live "on the economy."

Category:Ethnic groups
I've removed Category:Ethnic groups, seeing no reason for including it in this article. Does anybody disagree? -- Itai 14:02, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

the first line is missing the verb


 * I've added one in. Natgoo 21:14, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

1920s
Could someone expand this article to talk about historical expatriates? I'm thinking a mention about Gertrude Stein and the rest of the American expatriates in Paris in the 1920s would be nice. I would do it, but I don't know nearly enough. the iBook of the Revolution 22:05, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

References to virtual expat communities
I added the other day:

....."home" is. As a result of clashing cultures a lively blog culture evolved in the last years (see also below).

and

see also


 * The Xpat Files and Dispatches from France serve as a good start into the Expatriate blog world.

This was then promptly removed with a note to blog advertising. I disagree that this is falling into that category as it gives an insight into the expat mind and isn't this article also about that? Any thoughts?

cheers

Reto


 * They are not representative of the entire expat blogging community, they are just two blogs selected at random. They deal with common expat issues (adapting to a new culture, leanring a language, missing home country, etc.), that could be filled by any generic expat blog. They belong here no more than a programmer's blog belongs on programmer. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and I don't see how those two blogs add anything encyclopedic to wikipedia. A link to an article on the psychological and social effects of being an expat would be more appropiate. commonbrick 16:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the expat blog directory should stay. It's not citing any particular blog and at lets the reader explore more about the concept if they wish. Shadowrun 03:06, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * As Commonbrick says, the links aren't representative of the entire expat blogging community and add nothing encyclopaedic. Even if the expat blog directory link doesn't cite any particular blog, it does promote only those blogs that are hosted through expatfile.blogspot.com, which is a commercial operation.


 * And in any case, the last sentence


 * "As a result a lively virtual community of social blogs evolved among some"


 * adds little if anything to the article. Even if some expats are lively bloggers for the reason suggested, there are no doubt other expats who blog for other reasons. And I'm not convinced that expats are particularly active bloggers anyway. Take away that sentence, and you remove the reason for the links.DrDaveHPP 09:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I love the debate over what is and is not an expat. I think that these days an expat is more a place of mind than a descriptive state. Expats, immigrant workers and travellers are all percieved in a similar light. Expats for me are multi categoried, appearing as workers, setllers and travellers. Regardless of your opinion about expats, they all have similar tendencies, looking for something new, a differnce in life, often like to make changes for the better.   There are expats all over the world now and come in all walks of life. I have always wondered who the first expats were, I have visions of cavemen trying to obtain visas! Missionaries perhaps? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.16.187.78 (talk) 15:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Spam?
What exactly is the motivation for the spam tag? Angr (talk • contribs) 11:38, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know the answer to your question, but considering there are no external links on this article I have removed the tag. -- malo (tlk) (cntrbtns) 16:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

"expats" and "morals":

The "patriotic values" of an expat deminish.

New values "still do not fully aply"... (but they have an influence)

"Human rights" still seem true! Except for the "right of ownership" ... and therefor the right to kill others (.. except the right to kill killers).

So: where in all this chaos is it, that the right to make some "influence for the better" vanishes ... ?
 * No external links still and I removed it again. --Alexc3 (talk) 15:50, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I had posted in this section by mistake.--24.251.17.123 (talk) 11:31, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Are colonials expatriates?
I'm trying to categorize some German nationals who lived in Cameroon while it was a German colony. Would they be considered expatriates? This would allow me to use Category:Expatriates and its subcategories. However, if being a colonist does not make one an expat, perhaps I should create a category for colonials? — Amcaja 19:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

The current use of the term expatriate is quite recent, only appearing in the last fify years or so. The original correct use is as a transitive verb meaning to banish from one's native land, or reflexively, to withdraw from one's native land and renounce citizenship. The modern usage only appears in the OED in the coloquial form expat, with a reference from 1962.


 * I don't see any problem in referring to such people as expatriates. Even if the term wasn't in use at the time, it doesn't mean we can't use it now. They didn't use the word 'German' either.


 * I do; simply on the basis that historically colonies were still the property and the territory of whatever country controlled them. Going to a colony, you weren't really leaving that country per se as much as transferring to another place controlled by that country. You're still subject to common laws therein.


 * In any case, though, I'd add at least another sixty years and maybe a lot more onto the date claimed above. A couple of extracts from the full OED:


 * 1818 Q. Rev. XIX. 55 Patriots and expatriates are alike the children of circumstances.
 * 1902 Daily Chron. 26 Feb. 3/5 ‘The Expatriates’ is a novel by Miss Lilian Bell... Its principal characters are rich Americans and titled Parisians, and the action takes place largely in Paris.


 * Both of these use the word as a noun, and the second one implies the meaning then was pretty much the same as it is now. PeteVerdon 19:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

As colonials, they are NOT expatriates. However, if the colony is liberated from the mother country, the colonials become expatriates of the mother country, particularly those who were born and raised in the mother country and came to the colony as grown adults.

expat votes!
as their is a large american expat community abroad, 3-7 million, if they got together and organized, they could have heavy impact on american elections, especially if they registered from a couple swing states and last resided in those states before moving abroad, they could then vote in those states close elections and radically influence american election outcomes...currently it seems most expats dont vote, just mainly republican orientated military personnel, the civilian american expat community could become the most poowerful american election block if they merely organized and kept registered to a few key states 129.132.239.8 19:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

expats - american only?
The 'example' expats are all American - the expatriots (kind of obvious) but also artists, musicians, etc ... I think either link to "expatriots" from a disambiguation page, have some real examples of famous expats, or remove the section altogether. Any thoughts? 194.42.237.144 (talk) 11:20, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree. Why are there only a few American examples?! I would say to remove these examples all together. (Johan Lammers)
 * I agree with removing all the examples. There are too many to list them all, and those listed there aren't especially important. --zorxd (talk) 19:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed and with no objections to this suggestion over 4 years I have removed the section.Muleattack (talk) 19:34, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

International Usage
Added a section. Feel free to expand, the term expatriate is also used on unskilled labour from developing nations by many nations. It is not excusively used for Americans or Westerners living abroad.Some opinions and sections of the article actually represent sectarian or even racist views, at least they are xenophobic views. These are not political correct and can potentially be detrimental. Some of the cited countries have a more then 50% foreign workforce, many of whom are permanent residents. Expatriate can be a respectfull way of addressing these groups, regardless of their educational or cultural backgrounds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.176.38.31 (talk) 11:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Total number of American expatriates
The popularity and trendiness for more upper-income and "liberal" minded American expats to live overseas has grown in the last decade, and there are over 4 (or upwards to 5 million) American "expats" worldwide. The main nations for American expatriates are (by rank) Mexico, followed by Canada and the UK, and finally Australia, France, Japan, New Zealand, and Republic of Ireland. It comes to show not all Americans prefer to live or stay in their land of birth, and they seek new opportunities or a different life in other countries, but a sudden growth in political "refugees" from the previous Bush administration known as "Kerryites" are liberals or registered Democrats whom threatened to leave the U.S. in Bush's re-election in 2004. Now the Bush presidency is over, there's a new man (Obama) in the white house and the global financial crisis/ recession affects everyone not only in the U.S., would the number of expats return home in the next few years? Who knows on what the future holds. + Mike D 26 (talk) 21:44, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

honestly, how liberal can you be going to a country like japan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.14.213 (talk) 20:31, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


 * ...or Mexico, a country where liberal ideas accepted in the US aren't taken as a priority in Mexican politics? Most of the Americans resident in Mexico are usually retirees or part-time, second home owners. Given the chance in economics whenever things improve in the U.S. or worsen elsewhere in the world, most Americans will eventually move back "home". + 71.102.2.206 (talk) 05:30, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't be so sure about that. As stated in the article some Americans leave the USA because of ever intrusive Soviet-like government. A lot of expatriates leave America to find another place to be citing Quality Of Life reasons, and money is usually at the very bottom of this list. Once one unplugs from the American Matrix it is very difficult to go back, even if you are struggling in another country. I have a good friend who is an American expatriate who has difficult times in the country where he lives, but he told me something that I too agree with: A bad day in a foreign country is still better than a good day in America. I think he is right and this is something one can only understand by living outside the States for an extended period. Having said that i also suspect that the numbers from the government statistics are low for two reasons: 1. not all Americans who live outside the USA are 'official' expatriates so they are not accounted for on the government survey. 2. If there is a significant move of many Americans leaving the States the government would not want to disclose this to an already disillusioned general populace giving them ideas that they just might be happier living outside the anglosphere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.82.72.31 (talk) 14:33, 12 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Despite what you just said, more foreign-born people live in the U.S. (10-15% of the 300-305 million Americans) than American expats living overseas (5 or 6 million). An exception to the rest of the world (developing nations), quality of life is a huge factor for Americans to relocate to another country even the other place has lower living standards than in the US. I heard stories from some Americans in Europe are often "happy" to found themselves staying in a country "not like America" and don't want to return. + 71.102.7.77 (talk) 08:43, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

immigrant vs expat
so whats the difference between an immigrant and expat. penelope cruz is living in the usa. her company did not send her. why is she not an immigrant?


 * because she's rich and beautiful. d'uh. -58.24.246.23 (talk) 14:04, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "Expat" is a word used by westerners and other first-world foreigners (especially by well-eductaed and/or wealthy professionals and their families) to distinguish themseves from non-western or second- and third-word foreigners (especially the poor ones). Thus, "expats" and "immigrants" are the same thing, and the word "expat" is but a social marker. That is all. The only exception might be the one of diplomats, but then they are called "diplomats" and not "expats" (a semantically more inclusive term).--24.251.17.123 (talk) 11:25, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The dictionary difference would stem from a presumption of permanence for 'immigrant' and no such presumption for 'expat.' So all immigrants would be expatriates but not all expatriates would be immigrants. The reference to the racial undertones in the word's usage should really be the subject of a section for colloquial and vernacular usage, as the dictionary definition isn't so much in question and makes no distinction of ethnicity or origin, but rather it is the discriminating usage of the term that creates this discriminatory racial context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.253.192.220 (talk) 02:34, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

"Expat" is an anglosaxon or nordic. "Immigrants" are the other filthy lesser races. --83.43.237.189 (talk) 10:09, 7 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Can someone delete this filthy and disgusting racism?138.162.0.41 (talk) 21:42, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't mind if white people want to have their own special word to denote their immigrant status in another country, I really couldn't care less. But please explicitly state this in the article. Not once was race mentioned when it is so explicitly implied that only white privileged people from first world countries can be expatriates. This seems a bit ridiculous to me. The article comes off like its trying to be politically correct by not mentioning race when in actuality it is putting white people on a pedestal by giving them their own special hi-fi latin word. Like I said though, they can have their word if it makes them feel special, but don't skirt the race issue by pretending to say that it refers to just any person who resides in a country other than that of their citizenship, as the first sentence of the article states. Change "person" to "white person" and that would make me happy. Anyone else agree? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.150.186.190 (talk) 00:54, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I do. I'm a white professional Englishman living in France but considered an expat NOT an 'immigré'. Why?

There's a magazine called "Expatriate" with stories about (non-white!) expats: about "African professionals and entrepreneurs who thrive beyond political borders". They are clearly not white according to the cover pages, and the magazine certainly presents them as expatriates. --Chris Howard (talk) 19:57, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

After reading a few articles on this subject it seems that, technically at least, an expat has the intention of returning to his original country after a certain time (eg. people sent by their companies to work) whereas an immigrant has the intention to stay in the new country permanently. This is the literal, dictionary-style definition of the words, and shows a very clear distinction. HOWEVER, the elements of class, skin colour etc. do undeniable, and regrettably, come into the equasion in certain parts of the world (Europe, for example). White British people who retire to the Costa Del Sol consider themselves as expats and NOT immigrants, even if they intend to go home only in a coffin. It's a fascinating debate !! 93.7.81.112 (talk) 23:11, 28 April 2015 (UTC)


 * People from wealthy countries who reside in poorer countries are just more likely to be doing it on a temporary basis - they've been placed there by a business or something, and are just looking for something to put on their resume for a few years before moving back. While people moving from poorer countries to more wealthy countries are more likely to make their stay permanent. A lot of third world countries also have pretty harsh immigration laws that make fully integrating into society basically impossible. Still, it is noticeable that, for instance, a Pakistani moving to Japan, who has basically no chance of ever permanently integrating, would probably be called a "migrant", while an American living there would be called an "expat".138.162.0.41 (talk) 21:42, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

White people might be more likely to use the term than non-whites, but I see nothing here to support the idea that whiteness is part of the definition of the term. I've personally know people of other races who referred to themselves as "ex-pats." Was I supposed to correct them? Ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.239.199.141 (talk) 00:50, 26 January 2017 (UTC)


 * If you're from a richer country and go to a poorer then you're called an expat. For instance, a Japanese person who goes to Spain would be called an expat. A Korean who goes to Poland, expat. A Belarusian who goes to Qatar, not an expat. A Chinese person in Cambodia? Expat. A filipino in China? Not an expat. An American in Germany? Expat. A German in America? Expat. It doesn't mean that money isn't an incentivizing factor for expats, but then they are generally paid far higher than the average in the country they go to. For instance: Americans at Saudi Aramco, or Rosneft employees in Venezuela. So it's really not that difficult, and it would be mental to call a Japanese person in Spain an economic migrant, because Japan is a great power and quite wealthy, Spain is not. This also has other large implications as far as culture and life go. The life of a Taiwanese expat in Portugal will be far different than a Moldovan in Italy. Alcibiades979 (talk) 03:09, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Comparing several clear definitions
This article is more terrible than terrific. I think it can only be improved, if you put the very different concepts what expat can meet, beside of each other, instead of mixing them.

Just some brain-storming suggestions: e.g. 1) legal concepts, based on citizenship and immigrant status: a) Expats as non-immigrant foreigners (temporary residents) b) Expats as immigrant foreigners (permanent residents) and non-immigrant foreigners

2) social and/or cultural concepts

3) economic concepts of expat staff -> expats as dispatched foreigners vs. locally hired foreigners

As to the citizenship debate, I'd believe that switching citizenship would definitely mean the end of expat status. Good luck, I do not envie you. (116.21.162.131 (talk) 10:33, 14 June 2009 (UTC)).
 * I agree that this would be a very nice outline for an improved article on the topic.--24.251.17.123 (talk) 11:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Switzerland expat definition
Is there some reference? At least in the French speaking part of Switzerland, 'expat' has the usual connotation when used by foreigners and locals. I think this whole minisection isn't useful and after many years of living there as an expat, just wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.70.223 (talk) 00:19, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Expatriates versus Emigrants
I realise this question has been asked before, but I still don't quite know the answer: what is the difference between an expatriate and an emigrant? I notice, for example, we have Category:Kenyan expatriates, and Category:Kenyan emigrants, and similar categories exist for other countries. How are they related - is it the case that all emigrants are expatriates, but only some expatriates are emigrants? Or the other way around? Or something else entirely? Robofish (talk) 15:49, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe that expatriate refers to a person living abroad, where that person could have chosen to do so (be an emigrant) or much less often, have been forcibly resettled (be an exile). See the question at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:25, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Category cleanup needed
Per my comments above and here, I believe that Category:Emigrants should become a subcategory of Category:Expatriates. Currently category emigrants says "Emigrants, as opposed to immigrants or expatriates (each of which mean something else)". It is my understanding that those terms are not contradictory to expatriate, they are just more detailed. Expatriate is somebody residing abroad; (e/i)migrant represent a category of people who have done so willingly (whereas Exiles and Refugees had less choice). I also think that Category:Refugees and Category:Immigrants should become subcats to expatriate. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:34, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

The following is a summary of what I plan to add to the Wikipedia Expatriate page:
I believe that what the Expatriate Wikipedia page is lacking is information on how expatriates should prepare for their experience as an expatriate. About 40% of expatriates fall into failure upon working in a new country. However, this is not due to incompetence in the workplace skills or tasks, but rather due to inability to adapt to the foreign culture. That being said, the need for expatriate preparation is extremely high. So, I have compiled some information on how to do so, as preparation is necessary for success as an expatriate. There are 6 basic steps to becoming an expatriate. These steps should be followed in order to prepare for expatriation. The first is to decide where you want to go, who will accompany you, and how long you want to go for. The second step is to find a job in your country of desire. Step three is to apply for the visa that you will need for your stay in that country. The next step is to wait for approval from the country. In order to be adequately equipped, future expatriates must acquire knowledge about the culture they are entering into, become aware of the differences in culture they will encounter in their new place of living, and obtain competence in communicating cross-culturally. All of this does not happen immediately and adequate preparation time is needed before departing from one’s home country. Some of the most psychologically challenging areas of expatriates are verbal communication behaviors, nonverbal communication behaviors, and work styles. Therefore, communication is the most important aspect for expatriate adaption, as it promotes benefits to psychological health upon entering into new cultures and countries. Future expatriates must be trained on the knowledge and understanding of how their host cultures function in communication. This will allow for success in expatriation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akupratis (talk • contribs)

The following is an expansion for information about Expatriate preparation
As I previously stated, in order to be adequately equipped, one of the things future expatriates must do is acquire knowledge about the culture they are entering into. The following is an explanation of some of the ways a person could go about in acquiring that knowledge. Before entering the host country, an expatriate must come to an understanding of the values, norms, beliefs, and behaviors patterns of the host culture. Then, they should develop an appreciation, understanding, and acceptance of those things. One way to acquire knowledge about the host country, is to take the Cognitive Approach. This includes learning information about the country through lecture-type orientation. Another way of learning is through fact-orientation. This involves briefing of the environment and becoming oriented with the culture so that the expatriate may understand things of the host country such as the history, the geography, the religion, the people, and the economy. One of the best, most recommended ways to acquire knowledge about the culture is through experiences. This can be done through experiential exercises and cultural assimilators. One may undergo field simulations or attend assessment centers to take part in experiential training. Other forms of experiential training include role-playing, workshops, and simulations. Taking part in the experiential training will allow the expatriates to develop a better understanding of the details, and host culture as a whole. This will then contribute to the success of the expatriate. Field experiences can also be done in order to acquire more knowledge about this host culture. This is where the expatriate goes into another culture for a short period of time, to get used to the feeling of being out of their homeland. ==References==

Akupratis (talk) 17:14, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Please read the policy WP:NOT, particularly the section WP:NOT. This section violate that policy when it says "First, you should do X. Second, you should do Y...etc." We do not have articles on how to bake a cake, do your taxes, or repair your car. The "how-to"part has to go. That includes the following part of the "preparation" section:

"The following is information on how to do so, as preparation is necessary for success as an expatriate. There are 6 basic steps to becoming an expatriate. These steps should be followed in order to prepare for expatriation. The first is to decide where you want to go, who will accompany you, and how long you want to go for. The second step is to find a job in your country of desire. Step three is to apply for the visa that you will need for your stay in that country. The next step is to wait for approval from the country.[25] In order to be adequately equipped, future expatriates must acquire knowledge about the culture they are entering into, become aware of the differences in culture they will encounter in their new place of living, and obtain competence in communicating cross-culturally. All of this does not happen immediately and adequate preparation time is needed before departing from one’s home country.[26] Some of the most psychologically challenging areas of expatriates are verbal communication behaviors, nonverbal communication behaviors, and work styles. Therefore, communication is the most important aspect for expatriate adaption, as it promotes benefits to psychological health upon entering into new cultures and countries. Future expatriates must be trained on the knowledge and understanding of how their host cultures function in communication. This will allow for success in expatriation.[24]

In order to be adequately equipped, one of the things future expatriates must do is acquire knowledge about the culture they are entering into. The following is an explanation of some of the ways a person could go about in acquiring that knowledge. Before entering the host country, an expatriate must come to an understanding of the values, norms, beliefs, and behavior patterns of the host culture.[26] Then, they should develop an appreciation, understanding, and acceptance of those things.[26] One way to acquire knowledge about the host country, is to take the Cognitive Approach.[26] This includes learning information about the country through lecture-type orientation.[26] Another way of learning is through fact-orientation.[26] This involves briefing of the environment and becoming oriented with the culture so that the expatriate may understand things of the host country such as the history, the geography, the religion, the people, and the economy.[26] One of the best, most recommended ways to acquire knowledge about the culture is through experiences.[26] This can be done through experiential exercises and cultural assimilators.[26] One may undergo field simulations or attend assessment centers to take part in experiential training.[26] Other forms of experiential training include role-playing, workshops, and simulations.[26] Taking part in the experiential training will allow the expatriates to develop a better understanding of the details, and host culture as a whole.[26] This will then contribute to the success of the expatriate. Field experiences can also be done in order to acquire more knowledge about this host culture.[26] This is where the expatriate goes into another culture for a short period of time, to get used to the feeling of being out of their homeland.[26]" Maybe it can be rewritten. I note that it cites an article on "Step by step preparation guide" so I wonder if it might be a copyright violation.  Also, it is annoying when it says "There are 6 steps which must be followed," then it presents only 4 numbered steps followed by a block of text. Edison (talk) 22:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Left Wing expats fleeing Nazis?
According to the article: During the Nazi era, the German government deprived many left-wing and intellectual opponents of citizenship through expatriation, such as Albert Einstein, Oskar Maria Graf, Willy Brandt and Thomas Mann, often expatriating entire families

I'm not able to verify the references because I don't have the books. Perhaps someone else could verify them. My concern is that the article is saying that the Nazi government told them to leave. As far as I know, they were fleeing persecution. The Nazi government didn't expatriate them; they expatriated themselves. All of them decided to leave because they feared the alternative.

As we know, this wasn't unique to left-wingers or intellectuals. I'd say that they were more "assylum seekers" or "displaced persons" than "expatriates." --Lacarids (talk) 15:19, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Expat Directory?
According to the article:
 * The Expat Directory is currently collating information on expatriate movements to provide a statistical overview of expatriate origin and destination countries. Current statistics show that the majority of expatriates originate from the United States. The questionnaire aims to provide further information or key destinations and the length of time that expatriates spend overseas. The survey will remain open ended with monthly snapshots collated from March 2010

The paragraph is about a survey on a social media forum. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's not too encyclopedic. It appears to be nothing more than SPAM or shameless self-advertisement. --Lacarids (talk) 15:28, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

definition of expatriate
I would say the definition of expatriate in the article is too broad. Tina Arena a Notable Expat? Having lived abroad for +20 years I have only considered myself a expat when living in countries where there is a difference between my first language and their first language and as a general rule, in these circumstances, there is often a large cultural gap also. To proclaim one English speaker as an expat when living in another English speaking country is certainly a soft use of the term - as the risks to their lifestyle and the diversity of their cultural experience are much more limited than those who bridge different languages and cultures — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.40.6 (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Bias
The Guardian article used in the intro (http://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/mar/13/white-people-expats-immigrants-migration) is clearly biased. It claims that 'In the lexicon of human migration there are still hierarchical words, created with the purpose of putting white people above everyone else.' and goes on about how white people are 'above' the rest. This, firstly, is a matter of opinion (not fact) and is clearly the POV of the author. As well as this it is factually incorrect. In the UK, EU immigrants (white) or non-EU European (white) immigrants are called 'immigrants' and not 'expats' despite being white. Therefore this article should be removed as a source page. It is biased and not factually correct, clearly just the POV of a certain writer (Mawuna Remarque Koutonin, who by the way is black, which explains his obvious bias). I mean what he writes is racist filth. "Most white people deny that they enjoy the privileges of a racist system. And why not? But our responsibility is to point out and to deny them these privileges, directly related to an outdated supremacist ideology. If you see those “expats” in Africa, call them immigrants like everyone else. If that hurts their white superiority, they can jump in the air and stay there. The political deconstruction of this outdated worldview must continue." He has clearly already decided all whites are racist and against Africans. This author is the true racist. 92.24.203.143 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:48, 13 July 2015 (UTC)


 * An article from the WSJ giving different viewpoints on what a expat is. ‘Expat’ Under Fire: The Word Is Not Racist, Argues A Global Nomad Wayne (talk) 07:19, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Merge with immigrant/migrant worker
Reading this article, I can't see a clear distinction between its topic and that of immigrant, and, to a lesser extent, migrant worker. Unless we are to emphasise the debate regarding the two terms (discussed above) and describe it in detail, it would be appropriate to merge this article. --LukeSurlt c 16:02, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I have proposed the merge and started a discussion at Talk:Migrant worker. --LukeSurlt c 16:30, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Rewrite in progress
I've begun rewriting this page, in line with my comment in the merger discussion. I've added a 'To do' list at the top of this talk page. Feel free to add suggestions to the list, or discuss them here if you prefer. Thanks. -- Meticulo (talk) 04:49, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

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Third opinions requests

 * 1) Talk:Overseas Pakistani.
 * 2) Talk:British Pakistanis.

Disagreement about deletion of section and sources. Requesting third opinion per WP:3O

Bookku (talk) 07:00, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Expatriate categories
Specifically, Category:American expatriates in Italy. What is an expatriate? What about a student who studied for 4-6 years in Rome and came home to these USA right away, is that an expatriate? Does he qualify to be perpetually categorized as an expatriate even though he has returned? Does the category apply to everyone who has ever been an expatriate at any point in their lives? Elizium23 (talk) 19:41, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Race?
Why does everyone say that "expat" is just a white illegal migrant? 79.106.203.92 (talk) 08:06, 29 May 2024 (UTC)