Talk:F. N. Souza

Nationality and citizenship
Irrespective of the passports that he held, it seems misleading to describe Souza as a British Asian artist. Wikipedia articles should be based on what reliable sources say, and most sources describe him as Indian or imply that he was. In a British context a distinction is made between nationality and citizenship: citizenship being one's legal status and nationality being more a matter of personal identity, see Nationality of people from the United Kingdom. Souza lived in Britain only for a relatively short part of his life. As a young man he supported the Quit India Movement.
 * "A sale of a painting by the late Indian painter Francis Newton Souza" - BBC News
 * "Overlooked No More: F.N. Souza, India's Anti-Establishment Artist" - New York Times
 * "Francis Newton Souza has become the country’s most expensive artist." - Times of India

I propose that we should change the lead to: I would omit 'nationality' from the infobox. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:54, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Francis Newton Souza (12 April 1924 – 28 March 2002) was an artist from Goa in India. He was a founding member of the Progressive Artists' Group of Bombay. Souza's style exhibited both decadence and primitivism. He was a Portuguese citizen at birth and became a British citizen.


 * In 1967 he take nationality of France! 103.212.159.66 (talk) 08:13, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * No, 1967 is when Souza moved to New York City. But his fellow Progressive artist S. H. Raza had settled in France. 49.15.234.218 (talk) 13:42, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Here's an interview from 1966, he clearly saw himself as British and was upset by lack of recognition:

https://artreview.com/history-lessons-no-10-interview-with-f-n-souza/ "BSP: A painting of yours was recently included in the Tate’s collection. Have you had a raw deal from the Art Establishment in this country? <> FNS: Bloody raw! Where’s my M.B.E.? Where’s the retrospective at the Whitechapel? And ever since I crashed into the Guggenheim Award as one of five painters to represent this country, I’ve been consistently kept out of all the national and international exhibitions. Native jealousy in an effort to dampen a trailblazer who is not English. People say: no, no, it can’t happen in England: people are much too civilised here. In fact, I used to think it could happen in every field except art. I am mistaken....I am told by Denis Bowen that the British Council will never buy or include in their exhibitions abroad any artist who is not British by birth. This ‘British’ stuff and nonsense is a laugh when you think of Leslie Howard, the most English of actors who was Hungarian by birth. And all those Polish grandmothers hanging in the family trees of Englishmen!" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.107.80.29 (talk) 23:19, 22 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I do not read that interview as showing that Souza saw himself as British.
 * "There’s no place for the artist in India" suggests that his main reason for leaving India was the lack of a market for his paintings. This is confirmed by Carvalho.
 * Souza was annoyed by the attitudes to him of many in the London art world, although he suggests that this was sometimes due to his alcoholism (Rothenstein) or his politics (Berger). He was told that the British Council excluded artists who were not British by birth, but racism is not new, nor is it unique to Britain.
 * Souza was not saying that he was British, but that he was excluded from national and international exhibitions on the basis of his origin. When Souza says "This 'British' stuff and nonsense is a laugh" he is mocking British attitudes, and indicating that being British should not be important.
 * Wikipedia articles should be based on what reliable sources say, and not on an analysis of primary sources. I have seen no reliable sources that describe Souza as British. Rangel-Ribeiro says that he held a British passport, but that is not exactly the same thing. Verbcatcher (talk) 16:59, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

India doesn't allow dual nationality, so British Asian is accurate. Souza was also selected as one of five artists to represent Britain (not India!) in the Guggenheim International Award. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:3A80:18CB:8464:2A8A:227D:C706:25C8 (talk) 00:56, 24 November 2021 (UTC)