Talk:Faces of Meth

Article development
I'm not sure what to do with this. I created this stub because it is actually quite famous, and was surprised that it wasn't created before. I searched on wiki for it, and it doesn't even seem to be a section of another article. Strange. Anyway, I am at a loss for cats and templates.

I will return to try and fix this bare-bones stub up. Please feel free to speedy it if you think that's best. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 15:40, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I will try and help you when I have free time in the next day. There's a lot of sources, so it should be a quick DYK for you! Viriditas (talk) 11:30, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

According to Esquire, King started working on the project in October 2004. Here is the print version: Viriditas (talk) 11:47, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I will check that out. I'm having trouble finding content. I don't think it will ever be large enough. Also, new DYK rules say that I have to review some others' DYK first. I am about to do the species common name thing, and the Ambassador thing is coming up, plus I have a bit of personal stuff happening. I'm not sure if I will have time. What do you think? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:50, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Not to worry. I'll look for sources tomorrow.  I'm sure I'll find something.  Anyway, you have five days! Viriditas (talk) 11:52, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * If you have time. Many thanks. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:52, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Apparently, there's a transcript of King on Oprah and the National Geographic channel. I think I found the transcript of him on NBC news, but he doesn't say very much. Viriditas (talk) 12:53, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Criticism

 * Note: This is an editorial by Douglas J. Edwards, Editor-in-Chief. It needs to be used carefully, per guidelines. Viriditas (talk) 12:08, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This is an editorial by Douglas J. Edwards, Editor-in-Chief. It needs to be used carefully, per guidelines. Viriditas (talk) 12:08, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

How about this: Douglas J. Edwards, the Editor-in-Chief of Behavioral Healthcare criticized the project's methods stating that permission was not obtained from the subjects, and that the identities of the subjects could have been concealed using black bars to block the eyes.

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 13:52, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It sounds fine to me. I have to log off now, but I can't wait to come back and see the progress you've made! Don't forget to mention the PSA posters that were made. Viriditas (talk) 14:07, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

✅

Quote
Not sure if you want to use this or not, but here it is in case you do: Viriditas (talk) 13:20, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Can we add it as a blockquote? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 13:44, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure, do whatever you think is best. You don't even have to use the entire quote.  Shoreten it if you want. Viriditas (talk) 13:59, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

I personally like these two bits:

What I've observed when kids watch my program is they become pretty uncomfortable. ... People cover up their faces. They can't look...They feel sick to their stomach. But I think the most visible thing is their facial expression or the verbal utterances they make -- gasps in the audience.

"I want that shock value to be there. I want to make an impact that lasts with these people. I want them to not forget what they've seen."

How do we format it? Oh, better question: How are you about to format it? :)) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:06, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Chose whatever format you like! :) Viriditas (talk) 14:07, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Ahh, the ball's back in my court. Well played, my friend. :) Ok. How do I get those cool gigantic quotation marks? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:24, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

✅

Joseph Rose
It looks like reporter Joseph Rose is credited with being the first journalist to use the images in an article. There are several versions of the original article floating around but it would be nice to track down the original. Viriditas (talk) 14:02, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't access the webcache url, and the blog one give just a tiny bit of info. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 15:22, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I added the "blog" as a source, as it is a letter from the editor talking about the two primary moves behind the series. I finally found the full story. It is located in the paid archives of The Oregonian.  It was available for free up until 2009. Viriditas (talk) 01:13, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

DYK
It looks big enough, and interesting enough. Hook suggestion? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 15:19, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm leaving that in your hands, Anna. Viriditas (talk) 10:19, 22 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Okay. I'll cook something up. Wonderful copy editing job by the way. I never thought I'd see it develop so well and so quickly -- thanks to you. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:53, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Suggestions:


 * ...the public education strategy of Faces of Meth became a nationwide trend?
 * ...the Faces of Meth project shows before-and-after images documenting physical deterioration caused by meth use?

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:01, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I like the second one better only because I've been trying to follow up with the first one for almost a day now, and except for that brief snippet about the nationwide trend, I can't find any details about it. It should be added to the lead, however, but without specific details about it, I'm hesitant.  BTW, have you watched the Frontline episode?  If not, I added the transcript as a link.  The Faces of Meth segment on Frontline is very well done. Viriditas (talk) 12:43, 22 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Agreed. The second one is best.


 * Agree on adding "nationwide" to lead. I will if you don't.


 * Yes, I saw the Frontline. It was good. Reminded me of that old saying "Only users lose drugs."

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 13:44, 22 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I added this article to the DYK list using the second hook. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:23, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Good job, Anna! :) Viriditas (talk) 04:11, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Wikiproject templates and The Oregonian
Good call on the templates. Seems just right.

Why remove the Oregonian link?

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:55, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Ack, what did I do? Viriditas (talk) 12:15, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

✅

Logo
Can I snatch the logo to add to the article using this info. I know it doesn't offer much to the article, but I think articles are always better off with some image.

Portion used: The entire logo is used to convey the meaning intended and avoid tarnishing or misrepresenting the intended image.

Low resolution?: The logo is of a size and resolution sufficient to maintain the quality intended by the company or organization, without being unnecessarily high resolution.

Purpose of use: The image is used to identify Faces of Meth, a subject of public interest. The significance of the logo is to help the reader identify the brand, assure the readers that they have reached the right article containing critical commentary about the brand, and illustrate the nature of the brand in a way that words alone could not convey.

Replaceable?: Because it is a logo there is almost certainly no free equivalent. Any substitute that is not a derivative work would fail to convey the meaning intended, would tarnish or misrepresent its image, or would fail its purpose of identification or commentary.

Other information: Use of the logo in the article complies non-free content policy, logo guidelines, and copyright law as described above.

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 13:22, 23 January 2011 (UTC)


 * It might also help readers differentiate between the logo (identifier) from the Oregonian article and the Frontline logo. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 13:25, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, every time you see the "faces of meth" presentation used by the media, it includes a logo/watermark of what I believe is the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office. Perhaps we should use that instead? Viriditas (talk) 13:35, 23 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Excellent idea. Why not both? Here is the junk for the upload of the logo. Note the copyright tag at the bottom. I haven't clicked upload yet.

Pls advise. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 13:58, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I can't find the right copyright tag for the Sheriff's Dept. logo. It is not simple text, and it is not US Fed, so I don't know. I'll guess and add a tag that's restrictive. (Commons' rules drives me nuts. Plus, I'm pretty sure I drive them nuts too. I never seem to be able to get it right, and I can't make heads or tails of their phonebook-sized policy rules.) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:24, 23 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Okay. For what it's worth, I added both images. The commons pages for the images are showing serious amounts of red. I don't know how long they'll last. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:46, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Dang nammit! Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:31, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Heh. You uploaded non-free images to Commons by accident.  Not to worry, as I found a copy of the DVD cover that I'm about to upload, which is probably ideal.  I also have several other images of deputy King from three different productions. Viriditas (talk) 04:31, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Update: I'm debating whether to upload the CD (not DVD) cover. The reason is as follows: 1) The cover does not appear on the product website, and 2) It only appears on an unofficial site, and finally 3) It includes a before-and-after photo on the cover.  These three things together tells me it will be nominated for deletion and removed, so instead of going through all of that, I'm just going to upload a simple non-free screenshot of King at work, illustrating his job. Viriditas (talk) 10:07, 24 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Good plan. And good luck. Those commons guys are snipers. And, figuring out their rules is like reading rental car insurance. By the way, nice job finding the meth template. I didn't know it existed. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:49, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Nah, they are just obsessive nerds, like 90% of the rest of the people here. When in Rome... :) Viriditas (talk) 10:59, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

More images
I got an email back from the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office. They are looking into images for the article. Will report if/when something to report. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 08:46, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Penny Arcade
Um, I'm wondering if this reference is notable for the article. link. GamerPro64 (talk) 23:16, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Minor edit
Removed bugs delusion part in: The images often depict signs of premature aging, facial scarring from picking scabs (caused by the delusion that there are "bugs" under the skin), and advanced tooth decay,

I have yet to see a reliable source saying that's the reason most meth users pick their skin. Repetitive and compulsive behaviour is typical for high dosage stimulant use, referred to as punding or tweaking (See the associated terms section of Stereotypy ). Repetitive scratching is just another example, usually while doing something else like reading, browsing the web etc... It could well be that some meth users when asked why they scratch their face would blame "bugs" under their skin. Sufferers from Body-focused_repetitive_behavior are ashamed about their condition, try to hide the effects and some will deny doing it or come up with an excuse. And detainees may have other motives to exaggerate their conditions DS Belgium (talk) 02:36, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't understand your edit. The anecdote you removed is sourced to physician Tom Barrett of the Howard Brown Health Center who specializes in treating meth patients.  Additionally, this is supported by the medical literature on the subject, which calls it "methamphetamine-induced delusional parasitosis".  Further, this is supported by our own Wikipedia articles on delusional parasitosis and stimulant psychosis.  I am not sure what you mean when you say you have "yet to see a reliable source" on the subject, but the medical literature is chock full of them.  As a result, I'm reverting your changes.  Since the current source already supports the material, I've added more sources for your perusal listed below.  You may want to pay close attention to Ferrand 2009 as it documents cases of delusional parasitosis with photographic evidence of meth addicts who tried to remove the "bugs" from their bodies, with disastrous results.  And just so you know, removing sourced content is not a "minor" edit. Viriditas (talk) 10:25, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Ellinwood EH, Jr. Amphetamine psychosis, I: description of the individuals and the process. J Nerv Mental Dis. 1967;144:273-283.
 * Ferrand, D. C. Delusional Parasitosis and Factitious Dermatitis. Infections in Medicine. 2009;26:84-88.
 * Lineberry, T. W., Bostwick, J. M. Methamphetamine Abuse: A Perfect Storm of Complications. Mayo Clinic Proceedings. 2006; 81 (1):77-84.
 * Perkinson, R. R. Chemical Dependency Counseling: A Practical Guide. SAGE. 2011. ISBN 1412979218.
 * Weisheit, R., White, W. L. Methamphetamine: its history, pharmacology, and treatment. Hazelden Publishing. 2009. ISBN 1592857175.
 * I am saying that no source confirms that delusional parasitosis is the reason the majority of meth users pick their skin. The prevalence of dermatillomania is estimated to be between 1.4–5.4% in the general population. It is well known that dopaminergic drugs can initiate and exacerbate such compulsive behaviour. Is there an epidemiologic study saying that most meth users who skin pick suffer from delusional parasitosis? Let alone ALL of them, like the article is implying now. No time to find sources at the moment, and given the propaganda war probably hard to locate as 99% of search results will be repeating this claim. Haven't checked your sources either, do they confirm what the article claims, that the people shown in the mug shots thought they had bugs under their skin? Here's something to read: http://www.skinpick.com/node/284 I'll be back with sources DS Belgium (talk) 23:42, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You appear to be arguing from your own POV and experience, not from the sources. Could you point me to a good source that questions the correlation between picking scabs and delusional parasitosis in meth users?  As far as I can tell, this is not an issue.  However, if you can show that this has been questioned in meth users, I would be happy to remove it.  Blog sources like skinpick.com about ADHD have little to nothing to do with this topic. As I pointed out above, the sources support this relationship.  I am a bit unclear as to what you call a "propaganda" war.  Are you saying that this claim is akin to "reefer madness"? Viriditas (talk) 00:33, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, I had not heard anywhere that delusional parasitosis was the explanation for the skin. I'd tend to agree with DS Belgium on this one from my experience, but agree that a source would be helpful. Remember that only a portion of speed users become psychotic - there are many with poor skin who have not experienced psychotic symptoms. Interesting fact to source. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:55, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've listed six sources above. What is it about the current material that is either disputed or needs to be changed? Viriditas (talk) 14:26, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't dispute that delusional parasitosis exists, can occur in heavy users and will lead to skin picking, I dispute that it is the only (or most common) cause.
 * It is well known that stimulants increase OCD behaviour and abuse may produce tactile sensations which lead to skin picking. (http://www.childadvocate.net/Skin-picking_and_Self-injurious_Behavior.htm)
 * There is a strong link between impulse control disorders and substance abuse (http://www.forensicpsychiatry.ca/impulse/overview.htm), family history studies of impulse control disorders have consistently found elevated rates of substance use disorders in first-degree family members (www.dsm5.org/Research/Documents/Stein_Trich.pdf), studies show 38% co-morbidity of substance abuse and skin picking. So people suffering from disorders that lead to skin picking are also more likely to abuse drugs.
 * While skin picking with substance abuse include cases of delusional parasitosis, it's not equivalent to it. And while many describe feeling as if there are bugs under the skin, this is not the same as BELIEVING there are bugs under the skin (see for example Restless legs syndrome). Reducing all methamphetamine related skin picking to delusional parasitosis is a gross generalisation.
 * "Heavy use can also lead to what researchers have termed stereotyped behavour: compulsive repetitive behavior such as plucking at some object for hours, disassembling electronic devices, clocks, or motors, obsessive grooming, or picking at the skin (Ellinwood and Kilbey, 1975; Ridley and Baker, 1982)." (www.icjia.state.il.us/public/pdf/researchreports/methethnography.pdf )
 * You could maybe argue this is WP:SYNTH, but I could argue your use of sources is affirming the consequent (at least based on the only source I can access)
 * My issue with picking scabs (caused by the delusion that there are "bugs" under the skin) is that it ignores compulsive repetitive behaviour, increased OCD and impulse control disorders, and simple itching caused by the drug. If you mention one possible cause, you should mention others as well. DS Belgium (talk) 17:59, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, for the time being I'd leave the parenthesized bit out as well, until we can find some sources clarifying it one way or the other. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:49, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * For instance, this article discusses delusional parasitosis and also drug use, but only describes an association and seems to be discussing the delusional parasitosis mainly as a primary condition. Here and here talk about dermatological changes from amphetamine use but neither link or mention psychosis. I concede this article is giving the psychosi as a cause of the skin condition, but it presents it in an anecdotal way and cites that 1967 paper. Will keep looking. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:56, 2 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Okay, to quote the 1967 Study (which I have now read the fulltext of), it states on p. 275, "Hand-face touching and picking....were reported by both psychotic and nonpsychotic groups. In the results on p. 276 both groups had 50% positive (4/8 nonpsychotic and 5/10 psychotic patients) - note this study is essentially a qualitative analysis of 25 patients (and cited by a whopping 335 other articles!). It'd be good to see what else is written. I can't see how that 1967 ref alone supports the inline reference in the mayo clinic article. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:21, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Page 275?? wasn't my intention to put someone through all that over one sentence... I'll see what I can find tomorrow, it's getting late over here. Thank you for your trouble! DS Belgium (talk) 21:32, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I was curious- funny how such a common phenomenon has such sparse material on its pathogenesis....Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:02, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * That's true, and I thought that myself some time ago but didn't think any more of it at the time. DS Belgium recently wrote, Reducing all methamphetamine related skin picking to delusional parasitosis is a gross generalisation, which I also agree with, so I'll remove the material at this time. Viriditas (talk) 02:59, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Controversy
I think there should be some mention of controversy surrounding projects like this. ''There is no empirical evidence to support the claim that methamphetamine causes physical deformities. Of course, there have been the pictures of unattractive methamphetamine users in media accounts about how the drug is ravaging some rural town. The infamous “meth mouth” images (extreme tooth decay) have been widely disseminated. But, consider this: methamphetamine and Adderall are essentially the same drug. Both drugs restrict salivary flow leading to xerostomia (dry mouth), one proposed cause of “meth mouth.” Adderall and generic versions are used daily and frequently prescribed – each year they are among the top 100 most prescribed drugs in the United States – yet there are no published reports of unattractiveness or dental problems associated with their use. The physical changes that occurred in the dramatic depictions of individuals before and after their methamphetamine use are more likely related to poor sleep habits, poor dental hygiene, poor nutrition and dietary practices, and media sensationalism.'' 62.178.24.168 (talk) 23:29, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * This is a self-published essay by a group of psychiatrists. It’s also completely wrong. There is no working scientist in the field of medicine or pharmacology who would make these blatantly false claims. Adderall and street meth are clearly not the same. There’s a reason this is self-published. Viriditas (talk) 19:12, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Recent changes
A user recently changed


 *  The project uses mug shots of repeat offenders to demonstrate the harmful and damaging effects of methamphetamine on its users.

to


 * '' The project uses mug shots of repeat offenders to demonstrate what are claimed to be the harmful and damaging effects of methamphetamine on its users.

The user cited a rationale for their changes based on NPOV and an alleged controversy. Without a source showing such a controversy exists, I have reverted back to the original wording supported by the sources in the article. Using the words “what are claimed to be” in this context, amounts to weasel words, which editors are encouraged to avoid. In addition, such wording wrongly assumes that heavy meth usage might not be harmful and damaging. Therefore, I have restored the original wording. Drug usage revisionism seems out of place and unencylcopedic. We have no good reason to doubt that meth has harmful and damaging effects. Viriditas (talk) 09:06, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Editorial removed
"Rather we discuss how the photographs are largely structured by and embedded within already existing cultural anxieties about the figure of ‘white trash’, reflecting both the dominance and precariousness of white social position." There is absolutely zero social position, let alone a dominate one, when one is an addict of meth. That editorial being added was extremely inappropriate, insensitive, and a perfect example of individuals trying to vilify white people. Even drug addicts. STOP IT. 2601:644:8D81:8690:F4B0:574C:66E:D9C2 (talk) 14:51, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Since when is an article in a peer-reviewed journal "an editorial"? –Skywatcher68 (talk) 15:03, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Peer-reviewed is just leftist double speak for "things I agree with". Considering the person who wrote the editorial tried to equate a D.A.R.E-type progam to "white dominance". Not but ten years ago, such a thing would never make it into an article. 2601:644:8D81:8690:F4B0:574C:66E:D9C2 (talk) 15:21, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * "I'm an employee of the United States federal government who comes here to break up the monotony of my job." LOL no wonder you support such absolute bologna. 2601:644:8D81:8690:F4B0:574C:66E:D9C2 (talk) 15:24, 20 December 2021 (UTC)