Talk:Faisalabad/Archive 2

Section 1: History
Please use this section to discuss and provide sources to the history of Faisalabad. --Ellanorani (talk) 12:58, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the problem with the early history section before was that it was not specific to Faisalabad. I do think including what regions the city was apart of was useful, but the way it was described on a regional level was not very specific to Faisalabad. I am way out of my element, I know nothing of the history of this area and city. I do think it is important to keep the focus on the city though and not on regional/national conflicts, unless they specifically tie into the history of Faisalabad. Was the city known as something else before it was named Lyallpur? If it is without a documented history before that then it may not warrant a whole section to describe. Brief mention of the people who lived in the area that became the city may be useful, but detailing battles/wars that took place elsewhere probably wouldn't improve article. 70.36.233.104 (talk) 15:46, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The other problem is that it was sourced to a caste-based publication, and sometimes they can be aimed at glorifying the caste rather than seeking factual history. (I don't know about this specific one, so apologies to its writers if that's not the case, but it can be a big problem). But yes, some earlier history prior to the name of Lyallpur would be good if we can find it, as the place surely existed before the British turned up. Mr Potto (talk) 15:51, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, looking closer, it seem that Lyallpur was a new town built by the British - but a summary of what was around before they got there would be good if we could do it. Mr Potto (talk) 17:13, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Well this is it! Faisalabad was only fully established as a town when the British arrived. Before then it was mostly a number of villages/tribes. The early history that was deleted focused on what was happening in the region. I have found this link that might help. It is from the District Courts website of Faisalabad. http://faisalabad.dc.lhc.gov.pk/PublicPages/HistoryOfDistrict.aspx --Ellanorani (talk) 08:28, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Check this out. I found a report that might provide us with some guidance on Faiasalabad city profile. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Regional_Profile,Faisalabad.pdf --Ellanorani (talk) 08:31, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * It looks like the first source may have been [once used] before without citation. I googled "Faisalabad was originally known as Chenab Colony, then Sandalbar and then Lyallpur." and it looks like this is copypasted around the internet, not sure where it originates from though. The court's website appears legitimate, but not sure how useful the information is without verifying it's originally from a scholarly source. Given the couple wiki links in the text, it's entirely possible the content was copypasted from wiki, which would be hilarious if we were to cite wiki-plagiarism. The second source appears to be someone's homework, INTERNSHIP REPORT Regional Profile, Faisalabad BY GHULAM MUSTAFA 2005-ag-2087 B.Sc. (HONS.) AGRICULTURAL AND RESOURCE ECONOMICS. I don't know if this can be used as a RS, for an academic paper it is also lite on sources. 70.36.233.104 (talk) 14:39, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * If we do find some good sources for the early history of Faisalabad, it looks like the Sandal Bar/Sandalbar article might also benefit. 70.36.233.104 (talk) 14:53, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Well from your comments it looks like we are not going to find any sources that will "verify" what was around before the British established Lyallpur as a city. Most likely archive material will be hard copy and someone from Faisalabad will need to visit libraries or museums to source this. It is very rare to find material online for a country most likely lost alot of material at time of independence.--Ellanorani (talk) 16:23, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I think it is still worth looking for sources and I'm sure it won't take a trip to Faisalabad to find information on its early history. I think even if this material can't be used it does provide clues as to what to search for, namely Chenab Colony and Sandalbar. I'm hopeful we'll come across something. Clock Tower, Faisalabad, another related articled that doesn't contain any citations. I know next to nothing about Faisalabad or Pakistan in general, but I am looking. 70.36.233.104 (talk) 17:05, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your help 70.36.233.104. I really appreciate your assistance in making this article better. I will try and help but I am too stuck for sources to be honest. Alot of it from blogs, copy/pasted from Wikipedia. Perhaps it would be best to search for "History of Lyallpur" with "India" or "Pakistan". Those kinds of searches are a little more fruitful.--Ellanorani (talk) 08:36, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I have found information on the Lyallpur Museum website http://lyallpurmuseum.gov.pk/lm/ and the Government of Punjab website http://punjab.gov.pk/faisalabad_history and the City District Government http://faisalabad.gov.pk/CityHistory.aspx
 * Some more I have been able to locate, searched for "Lyallpur District" http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/lyallpur_district and http://www.cityfaisalabad.com/city_fsd/index.php --Ellanorani (talk) 09:06, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Just changed the heading to the sections to more inline with the city's timeline and move demography a little higher in the article.--Gopindera (talk) 12:50, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I have worked on the history section to be more inline with the history of this city. Can someone take a look and see how we can continue to improve it? --Ellanorani (talk) 14:54, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Faisalabad. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110622020159/http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x= to http://world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gpro&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-172&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=&geo=437101311
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070325212313/http://www.smeda.org:80/downloads/Cluster_Profile_LightEngineering.pdf to http://www.smeda.org/downloads/Cluster_Profile_LightEngineering.pdf

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MOS - use of now and trivia
Example: See: Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers, and Manual_of_Style/Trivia_sections. I have removed quite a bit of trivia, puffery, irrelevant mentions and there is more that needs to be deleted and/or sourced properly. The article is about Faisalabad - historically, modern day, infostructure, etc. See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cities/Settlements:_Article_structure. Happy editing! Atsme 📞📧 16:15, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Note: The lead should not contain information that is not in the body of the article. Also, as I was working on copyediting, the lack of citations and amount of puffery became overwhelming so I thought it best to tag the major problem areas so collaborators can help with the clean-up. Atsme 📞📧 16:31, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Section 8: Culture
As the previous information was written like a travel book. I have rewritten the entire section from my own experience and some help from online sources. It is my own wording. If you can help improve it then by all means. Ellanorani (talk) 12:38, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * please read WP:NOR, as it is one of WP's 3 core content policies. Also see Core_content_policies. Atsme 📞📧 16:57, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You have to realise this city does not get alot of press nor there is much editorial information on the internet. How do we go about this then? --Ellanorani (talk) 16:34, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, without RS we simply cannot add the information. See WP:NOR which is one of WP's 3 core content policies.  Atsme 📞📧 16:48, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
 * If you can find source you are welcome to improve it but like I said I have asked afew people for help from the Pakistan Wiki Project but after afew months no one helped. Best of luck. Let me know if you need any help.--Ellanorani (talk) 12:03, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * the problem is that if we cannot find RS, the information cannot remain. I'll give it a bit more time and hope we can find some sources that will work.  If not, we may be able to integrate some of the info as general knowledge, like "the sky is blue". Atsme 📞📧 16:23, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * that is what I am hoping for. Its not like I am making the article worse. I just want to show a positive image for my city. I tried to add photos that I had and add the relevant details to go with them but much of it is being removed. A waste of my free time. :( --Ellanorani (talk) 18:02, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Discussion to modify lead
It was suggested that improvements be made to the lead. While I am ok with the lead as is, I am always open to suggestions. Let's discuss it here. Atsme 📞📧 16:55, 28 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Atsme 📞📧 you wont get any help in this article. I have asked a number of people. To be honest with the lack of online material and the detailed history you are unlucky to get far with this article. I will help if required.--Ellanorani (talk) 12:00, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, . I really was hoping we could get this article ready for GA promotion, possibly on up to FA, the latter of which may not be feasable because of the sources.  See Massachusetts and how it was formatted and sourced.  I don't think we're that far off from being there.  Atsme 📞📧 14:35, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Your welcome,, like I said I am willing to help. I will continue to look for online sources and take a look at the article you have listed. Let me know where I can be of some assistance.--Ellanorani (talk) 18:00, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * See WP:INTREF, which is our biggest hurdle. Atsme 📞📧 18:18, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Like I sais Lyallpur is a very young city and the nature of material online is very minimal. Sources are usually travel, biographies from people from the area. Are we really near GA prmotion level?--Ellanorani (talk) 12:18, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Although improved substantially, over the past few weeks, it has a number of issues still to be addressed. There are too many red links, statements requiring supporting references and quite a bit that appears to be original research and overly promotional. Once those are sorted it stands a good chance. I have gone through it several times trying to sort the images for better presentation, and also removing duplicated wikilinks and unnecessary links to common words. One issue that needs sorting in that area is several links through the article to the University of Agriculture those could do with condensing; preferably to one section. Richard Harvey (talk) 13:12, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * like I said, there is little information on the internet for this city and I the same sources have more info.--Ellanorani (talk) 16:10, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * , I am in the process of editing the article to ensure that any statements likely to be challenged are compliant with our core content policies, particularly WP:OR and WP:V.  Those which are not compliant will simply have to be removed.  I have already changed some of the Colonial rule section to be policy compliant, and will be working on the article as time permits. Atsme 📞📧 18:03, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you to both of you. and . I appreciate you guys making this article more inline with Wikipedia rules and regulations. Like I said I want this to become at least a good article and with limited resources I am struggling. If I provide some links/editorials here maybe we can write sometime up and once reviewed we can post it to the main page. In the meantime can we stop all those IP address from ruining the article.--Ellanorani (talk) 22:13, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm actually not having too difficult a time finding RS as evidenced by my recent edits. The research required is rather extensive because you have to read through historic documentation and book chapters.  The article needs to be tightened so it reads less like a travel guide and more like an encyclopedia entry.  What would really prove helpful right now is if you would review the current references and eliminate the duplicates.  Citations that use the  form are easier to keep track of when trying to avoid duplications.  You name the reference, cite it in full one time, then easily use the reference again with a simple  and you're done.  Atsme 📞📧 22:28, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah I learnt something new! OK I will give it a go! :) --Ellanorani (talk) 22:40, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I have been editing for years and still keep learning new things. :) I am keeping an eye on the IP edits, which you cannot stop entirely. Though shoukd they become too disruptive I will apply for a pending changes protection period. Richard Harvey (talk) 10:57, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Guys! You are awesome! --Ellanorani (talk) 11:04, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Found a detailed map of Lyallpur and historical photographs that date back to early 1900s on Wikipedia Commons. File:Map India and Pakistan 1-250,000 Tile NH 43-1 Lyallpur.jpg, File:Lyallpur Goods Shed Staff Circ.1907 British India.jpeg, File:Indian cotton (1915) (14746245666).jpg --Ellanorani (talk) 12:59, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Faisalabad City or City District
,, , and others who have edited and may be watching this article - I would appreciate your input regarding the status of Faisalabad as a City District based on the following: according to Chapter 4 of the Urban Management Initiatives in Pakistan, the major metropolitan city of Faisalabad was restructured into a City District. See page 84 & 85. I attempted to identify it as such in the first sentence of the lede here. It was reverted here with the following edit summary (Astme is confusing Faisalabad District and Faisalabad City in this sentense. The District City link should lead to the Faisalabad District not to the city. This reference should not be added here.) According to the sources I've researched, Faisalabad has received City District status. Based on the edit summary by the IP who reverted me, it appears they may be confused over Faisalabad District vs Faisalabad the City District. It can be a bit confusing so I'd like to get a few more eyes on this for validation either way since it is the first sentence of the lede, defines Faisalabad, and effects some of what is written in the article. Atsme 📞📧 07:52, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I modified the first few sentences of the lede to cover all the bases. I think it works well now so if you will please focus on the RS/N issue below this post regarding the Children's Hospital. Atsme 📞📧 03:04, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

I requested input regarding the WP:V issues of the Tribune over the Children's Hospital information that an IP wants to include. There are censorship issues with the cited source as well as questions I've raised about bias in the interview and contradictions created by dated photographs. What I've seen are photos dated October 2015 that represent stage 2 of what should at least be a 5 stage construction of the hospital before the interior even begins. I've requested RS that will pass the acid test for WP:V. There's also the issue of WP:Puffery. Atsme 📞📧 01:24, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Also see RS/N

External links modified
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 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20151007013956/http://www.pakistanitourism.com/faisalabad_city to http://www.pakistanitourism.com/faisalabad_city

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Revert
Regarding this revert, I have found the statement inaccurate. The source cited discusses attitudes in the overall Punjab region whereas this article is on Faisalabad. The way the statement is worded on this article, apart from being misleading and a generalisation (which is bad according to WP:POV), implies as if this is the norm. It also doesn't take rural-urban culture divides into account, while the source cited extensively discusses rural and urban Punjab. So in my opinion, we have two possible outcomes: either add that the said attitude is something found in the regional culture, or remove it as irrelevant to an article on a city.  Mar4d  ( talk ) 15:23, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll see what I can do about tweaking the statement to satisfy your concerns but I'm not convinced that it doesn't belong in the article because it is indeed part of the culture. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 15:33, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2017
I want to request that as we know that Faisalabad is also known as city of textiles and Manchester of Pakistan so plz write these also below the name of Faisalabad City. Selfloverboy (talk) 09:46, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: "Manchester of Pakistan" is mentioned in the first paragraph of the lead section. As for "City of textiles", provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. regards,   DRAGON BOOSTER   ★  10:50, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

How to control polution in city
We should write ways to control Ahmedaftab12 (talk) 17:38, 12 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Please read WP:What_Wikipedia_is_not. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 18:22, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

City vs. District
Does the lede of the article really need to mention how many square miles is the district's area? It would make sense to include such data about the city or the metropolitan area, but I really don't see the relevance of this data for the much larger district. – Uanfala (talk) 09:34, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, because people who know nothing about Pakistan, Punjab, districts, and cities confuse the two. A comparison of the sizes is helpful encyclopedic information. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 03:08, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Annual GDP
re: your revert of 20% GDP to 7% - how did you arrive at that figure? See Export, and Page 26 titled Town and City Life of Faisalabad, both of which state ''it contributes over 20% towards Pakistan's annual GDP. Faisalabad's average annual GDP is $20.55 billion (USD), of which 21% comes from agriculture.'' ?? I'm no mathematician, but I did see charts where the city contributes a very small amount overall. I usually go by what the sources state - but would like to know how to do the calculation (and what it should be based on) for future reference. I'm wondering if the confusion is because the figures might be referencing Faisalabad district vs Faisalabad the city proper? Most of the work I did on this (verrrrry long article) was copy editing and also worked with the GA Reviewer. I think worked on it back in 2011, and helped with the most recent discussion regarding nomenclature. Thanks in advance. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 23:19, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, I see what happened. It was based on the GDP for 2013. If you use the averages over many years, it is actually a bit higher than 20%. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme 📞📧 04:59, 17 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Neither of these provided links are reliable, and are instead mirrored directly from this page, or this page was plagiarized from those sites. Either way, neither source is credible. Willard84 (talk) 15:15, 16 June 2017 (UTC)