Talk:Finwë and Míriel

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 * Escudo de la Casa de Finwë.png

Requested move March 10 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved  (t &#183; c)  buidhe  21:35, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Finwë → Finwë and Míriel

I am surprised that this short article is untouched by the wave of PROD's, AfD's and merger proposals across the Middle-earth project between 2019 to 2020, since Finwë has always been more of a plot device then a fully formed character and he dies very early in the story. Anyway, reading the prose as well as sources provided on the current version of article gave me the impression that the only significant out-of-universe discussion about Finwë is his story with his first wife, with a whole section under Concept and creation about their contributions to the backstory of their son and its narrative significance, and the complicated circumstances behind their deaths which ultimately inform Fëanor's motivations and the fate of the Noldor. I am not sure if there are further sources which specifically discuss Finwë, but I did find a few more which specifically discuss Miriel here and here, and a full length article with their relationship as the headline here. If such sources were to be added to the article to expand the analysis about the story of Finwë and Míriel and make a case of its significance (and ultimately inclusion on Wikipedia as a notable topic), it makes sense to me if the article is renamed and reworked to include a broader range of sources. Haleth (talk) 12:58, 10 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Probably just overlooked (best not to draw attention to such things, really). The article was however already reliably sourced a year ago, though page numbers would have been nice... I've no objection to the renaming, as you know, but there is no reason why Miriel could not be included under the current title. I'd equally not object to merging the article as it's barely justifiable as it stands, though that might change if something substantial can be said about the pair of them.


 * There are not many sources for either of them (Finwë + Tolkien ~198, Finwë + Miriel ~77, Mir iel + Tolkien ~177, but most of these are minor mentions).


 * The Amelia A. Rutledge article you mention "'Justice is not Healing': J. R. R. Tolkien's Pauline Constructs in 'Finwë and Míriel'" is easily the most substantial of the sources so far, and it'd certainly be worth looking out the full text. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:11, 10 March 2021 (UTC)


 * It mainly comes down to the nature of the sourcing, and there are more search results in Google Books. For example, I neglected to mention that the Drout-edited encyclopedia actually lists both Finwe and Miriel together as an entry. There's also the in-universe so-called Statute of Finwë and Míriel which Tolkien wrote as part of his Laws and Customs Among the Eldar essay, which have been discussed in some of the scholarly sources. Miriel is already included and discussed under this article for years now, even going back to the last AfD back in 2011 which ended in no consensus, and this particular section takes up almost half of the article prose. Creating an article about Miriel does not make sense since she is as much of a background character as Finwe, and they are often discussed together in many of the reliable sources. Renaming the article, in my view, means we can freely apply sourcing for both topics as part of one article without any undue issues; it doesn't make sense for an article specifically about Finwe to have more then 50% of the content discussing Miriel and vice versa. Haleth (talk) 15:56, 10 March 2021 (UTC)


 * If that's right - and it doesn't reflect the article as it is now - then the choice is to merge or to rename. The Matthew Dickerson entry in Drout is half a page, but not at all bad; Dickerson oddly puts Flieger's Splintered Light in his 'Further reading' section without explanation (must be a Wikipedian), and I see that Flieger mentions Finwe twice – each time briefly but (as usual for her) usefully. Perhaps we can find a way to making this article notable. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:09, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I take the view of renaming this article and expanding the prose. At least two to three in depth sources are good enough for me. I don't see a point merging it to Noldor, or Feanor, when I can already see a scope for expansion. Haleth (talk) 16:17, 10 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Then let's develop the article ("expand" is far too much like "inflate", to my ear) and see where it takes us. Perhaps in a few days' time it will be obvious to everyone why the renaming will be a good thing. Actually finding and using sources is way more persuasive than argumentation, I find. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:39, 10 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Support, Míriel is tightly bound to the story of Finwë and his sons, with all the disastrous consequences of their decisions. She has a full place in the article, reliably sourced, and should be named in the article's title. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:40, 11 March 2021 (UTC)