Talk:Flag and coat of arms of Moldavia

Moldavians

 * Get a life Mr. Dahn. This is a page about the coat of arms of Moldavia. Since you are not a Moldavian you are not entitled to do any changes here.

Adr2ian, can you point me to the Wikipedia policy which says that only Moldavians may edit articles related to Moldavia? :-)


 * I was pointed by an older Wiki user to some comments made by you regarding Moldavia and Moldavians and it's quite clear that you have something against the Moldavians.


 * I will not modify the article again but the vandal here is not me. It's a shame that the Romanians are represented on Wiki by such mediocre people. I don't know if there is a term for phobia or hate for the inhabitants of a different region of the same country but if it exists it sure applyes to you and to many others. We can see it and hear it quite often. That's why Anti-Moldavians should better abstain from changing articles concerning Moldavia.
 * Adr2ian, I do not answer to straw men, especially since the point I had made back then was taken out of context by a user who, I believe, should have received a warning for that (namely, User:Dc76). I would like you to quote me making the "comments made by you regarding Moldavia and Moldavians" which allegedly make it "quite clear that you have something against the Moldavians", indicating the place where "I have said them". Otherwise, this counts as libel.
 * The rest of your argument is dismissable trolling. I will make it quite clear that, if you engage in this sort of diatribes against me ever again, I'll not be willing to let it slide past me. Dahn 18:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Lol, wake up man, you're a nobody, you're as much as a bug to me, how dare you to threaten me? Now, back to the article, four of the pictures used there are my previous contribution on other pages, either scaned by me from a personal history books or colected over the time. You didn't had any remorse using them as we can see. Since it looks that you own Wiki, i regret now making my contributions here and on other pages especially with pictures, since i noticed many Romanian personalities lacked appropriate and authentic pictures. Like i said since you claim this as your project let this page at least as it was before my fist contribution here. Goodbye mr. Ceausescu!
 * Well, bye. Dahn 18:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Dahn is right that Wikipedia is not an image gallery: I'll copy the images on commons and link to the real gallery. bogdan 17:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Aurochs or wisent?
What do the sources say? Looks more like an aurochs. FunkMonk (talk) 20:07, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Official coat of arms of the principality
This is the official coat of arms of the Moldavian principality in 1855. This image is present on the passports of the Moldavian principality (see File:Прінціпатꙋл Молдовеі. Пасапорт.jpg).

This color image is not found in historical documents. In addition, a lot has changed since the time of Stephen the Great. Better to use a more recent (latest) version of the coat of arms. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 20:00, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Similar images are shown in this Romanian source: Dan Cernovodeanu, Stiinta Si Arta Heraldica În România, 1977
 * Fig. 6. Stema Moldovei de pe spätarul stranei domnesti (executate dupà 1821) aflat'6 in biserica mánástirii Neamt. — P. 269
 * Fig. 1. Stema Moldovei (gravatii de Oh. Asachi) in timpul guvernärii generalului Kisseleff (Bible Acad. R.S.R., Cab. stampe). — P. 275
 * Fig. 4. Stema Moldovei pe o diploma de rang din ianuarie 1856 emisă de Grigore Al. Ghica Voievod (colect. Lambrino). — P. 275
 * Fig. 6. Stema Moldovei pe sigiliul din 1858 al Cäimacfimiei acestui principat (Bibl. Acad. R.S.R., Cab. numism., Sigilii, nr. inv. III/111). — P. 275 --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 12:51, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Official flag of the Moldavian principality

 * , to just remove the most commonly known flag is not a good solution. This flag you are promoting is not known by almost anyone and it will most likely be removed by lots of editors who only known the well-known version. Do you know what colors are accurate? As far as I know the flag by itself was accurate, just the colors weren't. I think it is a clearly better option to just correct the well-known one instead of replacing it. Super   Ψ   Dro  13:34, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you propose to leave a fictitious (unofficial) coat of arms of the country, just because it has been in this card for a long time? Did I understand correctly? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 13:44, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * "banderium magnum sericeum, coloris rubri, in quo arma Terrae Moldaviae pulchre auro depicta erant". Translation: "large red silk flag, on which was beautifully painted in gold the coat of arms of Moldavia". Why is this version fictitious? Super   Ψ   Dro  14:03, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * (1) it is an arbitrarily pulled flag from a long story; (2) there is no image of him, and the modern drawing is an artistic fiction of the author. Therefore, it is better to use the official and most recent symbol of the state, as is usually done on Wikipedia. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 14:10, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * "it is an arbitrarily pulled flag from a long story" what do you mean? If you mean what I think, take a look at how cited this fragment "banderium magnum sericeum, coloris rubri, in quo" is. 188 quotes in Google, quite a lot, and also a few books and academic articles. It is not a random sentence I chose from anywhere. "there is no image of him, and the modern drawing is an artistic fiction of the author" that doesn't matter. I don't see any reason why modern reconstructions should be avoided, and specially when it's about simple drawings like that flag. "as is usually done on Wikipedia" there's no policy on this but Wikipedia usually recommends the most common stuff over the most recent one (for example WP:COMMONNAME). Your version has gotten 11 views in the last 30 days while the long-standing one has gotten 55 . "Flag of Moldavia.svg" gets 2,860 results in Google, "Flag of Moldavia in 1831.svg" (your version) gets 93. Both are accurate flags so the most logic option is to use the most common flag.   Super   Ψ   Dro  15:04, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , since you are also questioning the use of this 1831 flag, you might want participate on this discussion too. Super   Ψ   Dro  15:09, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

This is the last officially approved flag.


 * The flags are, as you can see, completely different. (Rgvis (talk) 14:32, 25 April 2021 (UTC))
 * We do not know which flags are shown in this figure. There is no comment that these are national flags. It is likely that these are battle flags. Example 1, example 2. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 14:45, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Once again, according to contemporary sources (cited above), Moldavia did not have any national flag at that time!!! The main flag used by the principality was that of the rulers (which may also coincide with the flags given to various military units). As long as you do not provide any reliable source for you POV and all arbitrary images you have created on Wikicommons, this discussion is futile. As long as there is no consensus, no other flag image will be inserted into the infobox template of the article. (Rgvis (talk) 20:33, 25 April 2021 (UTC))


 * Other contemporary sources clearly explain the situation of the flags of Moldavia and Wallachia, for the 1830-1859 period, and states that the images with the horizontal blue-red flag are considered WP:OR:

"The Treaty of Adrianople (1829) between Russia and Turkey, besides recognising Greek independence and Serbian autonomy, also established free trade for Moldavia and Wallachia with the reopening of their ports to the shipping of all nations. At the same time the creation of a Moldo-Wallachian fleet (both mercantile and military) began. Colours were stated for the two principalities, and at the beginning they were mainly used as lance pennons (red and blue for Moldavia and yellow and blue for Wallachia). This induced some authors to assign horizontal bicolored flags to the two countries (Deppermann and Ruschke, Hamburg, circa 1840), but there is no evidence for their existence."


 * According to Encyclopædia Britannica :

"In 1834 the Ottoman government recognized local flags for use in Moldavia and Walachia, two principalities that later joined to form Romania. Their local flags were based on ancient heraldic banners—blue with an ox head (Moldavia) and yellow with an eagle (Walachia). Walachia also chose a naval ensign with horizontal stripes of red, blue, and yellow, colours later selected for the Romanian national flag."


 * The purpose for which some users try to promote this red-blue flag is one of the political agenda. Contemporary Moldovan scholars about the red-blue flag :

"The red-blue flag with an ox's head ..."is a recent creation, which the communists have been displaying for several years. It is an illegal flag", explains the specialist. According to the historian, the communists previously tried to register it in the General Armorial of the Republic of Moldova, but they did not succeed because they could not prove its authenticity."


 * (Rgvis (talk) 14:11, 26 April 2021 (UTC))
 * This changes it all. Considering the user's arguments for defending the blue and red symbols aren't very strong and their other edits related to Moldova, I am inclined to think that this user has different motivations than it seems. Super   Ψ   Dro  16:58, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

That's just in Russian-language sources. Ru: В армиях появляются национальные флаги и оркестры. Валашский флаг состоял из желтой и красной полос, а молдавский из синей и красной. En: National flags and bands appear in the armies. The Wallachian flag consisted of yellow and red stripes, and the Moldavian one of blue and red. (source: Гросул В. Я. Россия и формирование национальных регулярных армий Молдавии и Валахии // Вопросы истории: ежемесячный журнал. : Nr. 5/2001)

Ru: Сине-красный флаг у Молдавского княжества 1831-1859 гг. En: Blue-red flag of the Moldavian principality 1831-1859 (source: Шорников П. М. Как была принята государственная символика республики Молдова, 2016)

Ru: По условиям Парижского мира (август 1858) между Францией, Россией, Англией, Пруссией, Сардинией и Османской империей для Молдавии был установлен красно-синий флаг. En: Under the terms of the Paris Peace (August 1858) between France, Russia, England, Prussia, Sardinia and the Ottoman Empire, a red and blue flag was erected for Moldova. (source: Спаткай Л. Гербы и флаги стран мира. Европа. Часть II, 2018) --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 17:43, 26 April 2021 (UTC)


 * All reliable sources (based on research studies in the field of heraldry from Romanian, Moldovan, or other European specialists), consider that it is unlikely that your flag variant had been used or even existed (not to mention that some scholars even call it a fake). (Rgvis (talk) 13:36, 28 April 2021 (UTC))

File:Coat of arms of Moldavia.svg
Where did this drawing, strikingly resembling part of the coat of arms of modern Romania, come from? What source indicates that the shield of the Moldavian principality was always red? What time and ruler this coat of arms? Or is it a fantasy of a modern artist, not based on reality? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 08:41, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * You have been given tons of sources and links. You can read them instead of starting another discussion you'll stop participating in later. Super   Ψ   Dro  08:50, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * What kind of discussion with links to sources are we talking about? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 09:10, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The one above. Super   Ψ   Dro  09:19, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * There I saw nothing about this image of the coat of arms. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 09:46, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * These (new other) sources will (should) answer your question:, . (Rgvis (talk) 21:14, 22 April 2021 (UTC))
 * Colleague, can you give specific quotes from sources that support your point of view? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 13:18, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Here are all the coats of arms that I found, based only on historical color illustrations, illustrations with heraldic shading (tincture), or on an accurate historical description. Any original research, paintings by artists and controversial drawings are excluded. And what is the dominant color of the shield? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 14:14, 23 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes, there are many sources for the current flag and coat of arms of Moldavia (as it has often been stated).
 * Principality of Moldavia at crwflags.com (concise and documented):
 * Silviu Andrieş-Tabac-About the flag of Stephen the Great carried on 12 September 1485 at Colomeea (pp. 21-73), with drawings on the page 73:
 * Vlad Mischeva-The national tricolor. Introduction to the symbolism of vexillology:

"In medieval Moldavia, the red color was traditionally the color of the sovereign - the prince of the country. Traditionally, two insignia have persisted on the flags of Moldavia: the aurochs head - the symbol of the Moldavian state and Saint George - the ecclesiastical symbol of Moldavia."


 * presidency.ro - About the Romanian flag:

"The basic color of the Moldavian flag is generally red. ... the flag of Moldavia, during the reign of Stephen the Great, was still red, with the head of an aurochs with a star between its horns and flanked by the sun and moon. From the same period we have the image of Stephen's princely flag in the engraving depicting the battle of Baia from 1467: long and narrow flag, with vertical stripes parallel to the pole (the family coat of arms) and the aurochs head on the rest of the canvas."


 * About Dan Cernovodeanu's work (full of information on this subject), it is almost useless to mention it:
 * Of course, many colors were used, but red is considered to be more common. (Rgvis (talk) 14:38, 27 April 2021 (UTC))
 * Can you provide a link to the image of the coat of arms with a red shield? Or a quote from an authoritative source describing such a coat of arms? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 16:41, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not surprised you don't want to see them. (Rgvis (talk) 13:36, 28 April 2021 (UTC))

Again about the colors of Stephen's coat of arms
About this edit.

This infobox indicates about this coat of arms: Modern reconstruction of a Moldavian coat of arms based on the seals of Stephen the Great, Roman I and others. Above are historical drawings. For the first time, red appears in the coat of arms of Grigore III Ghica's rule (1775). And this color is not the main one. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 14:31, 11 May 2021 (UTC) (Rgvis (talk) 10:02, 17 May 2021 (UTC))
 * Super Dromaeosaurus, can you comment? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 18:20, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Many sources have been provided showing the use of red and yellow on Moldavia's symbols. Current consensus appears to be to keep both pair of symbols. We won't slowly change them to favor one side. Super   Ψ   Dro  19:21, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Sources mostly say that there were red flags (along with others). However, not a single source has been cited confirming the red color of the background of the coat of arms before 1775. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 11:38, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
 * According to [Cernovodeanu 1977, p. 121]: "....the document from 1599 issued by Constantin Movilă in his exile from Poland, in which we find an armored representation of his family coat of arms, over which it broaches a badge in the abyss with arms of the Moldavian principality: in a red field, a golden aurochs head, with a star of the same metal between the horns."
 * However, no other evidence was provided that the simple blue-red flag existed. On the contrary, another source clearly confirms that the respective variant (bicolor stripes, without coat of arms) existed only as lance pennons for the Moldavian cavalry. The only variant of a blue-red flag arranged as horizontal stripes seems to be the one with the coat of arms on it, which was used by the Moldavian river fleet: . (Rgvis (talk) 10:02, 17 May 2021 (UTC))
 * Yes, I am aware of this, but there was no consensus in the RfC so I see no point for striving to remove the blue and red symbols, for now at least. Super   Ψ   Dro  13:52, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Changes in coat of arms colors in the 19th century
Thus, in the 19th century, red, as the main color of the shield, appeared only after the unification with Wallachia (United Principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia). --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 10:21, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Moldavia's history goes back way before the 19th century. Super   Ψ   Dro  17:39, 9 July 2021 (UTC)