Talk:Flying Spaghetti Monster/Archive 18

Semi-protected edit request on 17 April 2018
Change "social movement" to "religion"... Wikipedia should most certainly NOT be a place for bias!

Change "misleading graph" to just "graph"... again... this is BIAS!! - NOT acceptable! 2A02:C7D:3E83:600:610E:83D7:D583:8161 (talk) 23:26, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: The graph is intentionally misleading to show the corresponding relationship between two completely unrelated variables, and per the sources, higher FSM figures have been quoted in ways that lead to it being identified as a social movement against religions in general —   IVORK  Discuss 23:38, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 May 2018
Under the subject MARRIAGES:

After the second sentence (which reads: "Pastafarians say that separation of church and state precludes the government from arbitrarily labelling one denomination religiously valid but another an ordination mill."), it should be noted that FSM marriages were legally recognized in California as early as May 2014: Should add: "Marriages performed by ministers identified with the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster were legally recognized in California at least as early as May 2014.".

If you seek a reference (and you should) the only thing I can offer is my own marriage certificate on file with the County of Santa Cruz, California (License and Certificate of Marriage, Registration Number 4 201444000534) - Phillip Robert Leary and Andrew Richard Bono, 5/31/2014, officiated by Minister Christopher Beem of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (see attached image). We may have been early adopters, but I'm pretty sure we were not the first. Incidentally, ours is considered a mixed marriage, as Phillip maintains a belief in His Saucy Redness, whereas I am a member of the Reformed Church of Alfredo. We make it work.

The last sentence reads "The first legally-recognized Pastafarian wedding occurred in New Zealand on April 16, 2016", which might imply that the very first Pastafarian wedding *anywhere* took place in New Zealand on this date - this I know to be inaccurate as I was married 5/31/2014 in California in the Church of FSM. Please replace it with "The first legally-recognized Pastafarian wedding in New Zealand occurred on April 16, 2016.[6]"

Thanks! LOVE Wikipedia, and this is my first edit recommendation. Cheers!

Dervish99 (talk) 06:14, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. "Reliable sources" in the Wikipedia context means reliable secondary sources. Your image of your own marriage certificate is not a secondary source.   Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:25, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

NOT recognized as religion in NL.
The header says it's recognized as a religion in the Netherlands, quoting a tabloid source. That's plain wrong. That source quotes a letter from a Chamber of Commerce, out of context. Obviously, a local Chamber of Commerce does not decide if something is recognized as a religion or not. Can't edit it myself because the page is protected. Could someone look into this? Thanks, 2A02:587:A606:1400:5C0C:2BDC:BD1B:4941 (talk) 19:33, 15 August 2018 (UTC) Adding to this Council of state has rejected idea the Pastafarianism as a religion. This might be an ongoing event as the Council of state has referred to the echr as the next stage in this battle for Pastafarian rights 2001:1C00:2608:BF00:4051:6489:E421:6541 (talk) 05:50, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Seconded. It should read that pastafarianism is registered as a denomination by the Chamber of Commerce in the Netherlands, which it is. Wjd90 20:45, 16 August 2018

Also: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/16/pastafarianism-is-not-a-religion-dutch-court-rules 2A02:587:A61A:EC00:DFD:2A3E:D0D2:1899 (talk) 11:42, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 August 2018
Under 'Legal status', the article reads the following: "Pastafarianism/FSMism is recognized as a religion in the Netherlands." This is not true. The English-language source, which is quoted here, is wrong. What happened, is that the Dutch Chamber of Commerce (Kamer van Koophandel) registered Pastafarianism as a (church) denomination. However, Dutch law doesn't require a denomination to be religious. Actually, the highest Dutch administrative court ruled against a Pastafarian woman who wanted to wear a colander on her ID photo. It was explicitly stated that Pastafarianism is a satire on religion, and not a religion itself. Therefore, religious exceptions are not applicable to Pastafarians. The sentence should therefore read: "Pastafarianism/FSMism is registered as a denomination in the Netherlands." Source (in Dutch): https://nos.nl/op3/artikel/2083186-vanaf-nu-telt-het-vliegend-spaghettimonster-geloof-echt-mee.html Wjd90 (talk) 18:56, 16 August 2018 (UTC)


 * More info, in English, at https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/16/pastafarianism-is-not-a-religion-dutch-court-rules 2A02:587:A61A:EC00:DFD:2A3E:D0D2:1899 (talk) 11:41, 17 August 2018 (UTC)


 * I've removed the sentences claiming FSM is recognized as a religion in the Netherlands.  Y intan  06:23, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 August 2018
Note 131 is wrong. That's another court case. So far there have been three separate court cases about photo IDs in the Netherlands, that led to five verdicts, plus a case for the Human Rights board about wearing a pirate suit to a PhD ceremony. Besides that, two persons did succeed to get photo IDs with a colander in it. In Belgium three people tried to get a photo ID with colander, but all three failed. None of them went to court. See the Dutch Wikipedia for more info. Let me know if Google Translate lets you down ;) Jasper82 (talk) 19:27, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2018
Hi, I would like something to be added to the article about the Australian Guy Albon, who wore a colander on his head for his gun licence photo, but subsequently had his guns and licence taken by the police: https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/man-who-wore-colander-on-his-head-for-gun-licence-photo-says-it-is-part-of-church-of-the-flying-spaghetti-monsters-religion/news-story/96524c8269dce92f89fd3aadc5e532b1 Thanks, Caroline 103.10.48.222 (talk) 03:23, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 13:55, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Pastafarian official as a celebrant in a controversial LGBT friendly mass in Poland
See the photo here (the celebrant on the left) https://m.niezalezna.pl/275094-sprofanowali-msze-sw-a-teraz-sie-tlumacza-kuriozalne-slowa-organizatorow-marszu-lgbt and a more RS info here: https://www.tvp.info/43012941/dzialacz-lgbt-odprawil-msze-na-paradzie-rownosci-polska-rada-ekumeniczna-odcina-sie-od-niego

Is it worth to include already? Zezen (talk) 07:30, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Edit request to change Federal Court to Local or District Court.
The use of the word Federal in this case is a miss-use to represent the USA as a Whole. However the facts from the article that it points to show that it was a local court, not a Federal Court. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IraTor19 (talk • contribs) 13, 25 July 2019 (UTC)


 * According to the source, it was the U.S. District Court of Nebraska, which is a federal court. Just plain Bill (talk) 23:31, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2019 - Wording on marriage celebrants in New Zealand
Hello! I would like to change this section of the first paragraph under "Legal status"

In New Zealand, Pastafarian representatives have been authorized as marriage celebrants, however members of other movements considered to be "alternative philosophies" rather than religions are also recognized as celebrants under New Zealand law.

To this:

In New Zealand, Pastafarian representatives have been authorized as marriage celebrants, however members of any organisation deemed to uphold or promote religious beliefs or philosophical or humanitarian convictions may be accepted as an approved organisation under New Zealand law.

Justification

The section on marriage talks about "movements" with "alternative philosophies" that are accepted by New Zealand law. This is pretty good, and it draws directly from the existing reference material, but I think we could be a little more precise in what exactly is accepted by NZ law.

We have two kinds of celebrant in New Zealand: individual celebrants and organisational celebrants. For the purposes of this article, we're only interested in the latter. To be more consistent with the definitions, I think we should use the term "organisations" rather than "movements" and we should use the wording from the relevant legislation rather than the "alternative philosophies" quote from before. What do you think?

Thanks!

(PS: This is my first content contribution to Wikipedia, so I'm sorry if I got the format wrong or I've raised this in the wrong place! Please let me know and I'll try to get it right next time.)

Garethsime (talk) 12:12, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Yellow check.svg Partly done: : Thanks for your contribution! I've edited the article along your lines, but with a different wording because the word "however" implies there's some sort of contradiction, which the sources don't seem to bear out. What do you think to the change of wording? Sceptre (talk) 17:07, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 November 2019
The text following the (appropriately) italicized "The Loose Canon, the Holy Book of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster" continues to be italicized. The source needs to be with the appropriate end italics mark
 * Yes check.svg Done Thank you, - FlightTime  ( open channel ) 00:04, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 November 2019
I think we should remove it. It's very wrong, and fake. Sanjay2133 (talk) 15:36, 19 November 2019 (UTC)


 * ❌. See WP:AFD for the process to propose deleting an article.  However, being real or fake isn't the standard, it's whether or not it's notable, which the FSM clearly is.  We have an article on the Tooth Fairy despite it not being real.  –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 16:06, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Not to disagree with the thrust of your argument, but the Tooth Fairy is as real as the Jesus depiction, any of the Buddhas, the FSM, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.125.168.2 (talk) 20:28, 2 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The Tooth Fairy is way more real than Jesus, the Buddhas, FSM etc. I got actual real money from the tooth fairy back in the day, never got squat from any of the other guys. Chuntuk (talk) 09:47, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

190.219.244.97 (talk) 20:00, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
This are my thoughts, they're a little incoherent. This is mocking christians... I would have suggested that it should be deleted, but I think that's too extreme... Just saying, this mocks christians. I thought it would have been great if I could get this article deleted because I donated money to wikipedia, but I thought that was hypocrite and I would have been criticised, I know I don't get special privileges here for donating. Even becoming admin won't give me such an authority to delete this, I though, but becoming admin woulkd have been great, I love wikipedia more than FB. Ultimately, this article is a satire.


 * At least the topic of the article is satirical/humourous. And on WP, there's nothing wrong with having an article on such a topic. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:20, 29 January 2020 (UTC)


 * As a Pastafarian, I can say that there is absolutely *nothing* about Pastafarianism that mocks Christians. Most of my family is Christian, and at no point since becoming a Pastafarian (five years ago) have I mocked my family, nor has my religion mocked them. Pastafarianism is a religion of it's own, separate from other religions, and does not mock, nor does it promote the mocking of, other religions. Beside, think of this: I am sure there were Jews around 2,000 years ago that thought Christians were mocking them, and the Romans certainly seemed to think the Christians were mocking the Roman religion with all those killings that happened. Yet, Jesus Christ did not seek to mock anyone, and his followers did not seek to mock either. Today, Christianity is, rightly, recognized as a real religion of it's own. You might want to keep that in mind before making such comments about my religion: early Christians were persecuted because they practiced a faith that the rest of society did not agree with, and now you -- and other Christians! -- are persecuting Pastafarians because you do not agree with our religion. So please, stop mocking us and, if you cannot accept our faith as your own, then at least tolerate it and accept it as the faith of others. ~Piki (talk) 20:59, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Edit request to address being a parody or satire not precluding being a religion
A small edit request or discussion. Instead of classifying Pastafarianism only as a social movement, I would request that it be delineated as a religion in the initial description. There does not appear to be a barrier to classification of a religion simply because it may be satire, parody, or that some people would rather it just not be called a religion. Wikipedia has no qualms about listing other parody religions as religions (see Jediism, others). In other words, if a religion is satirical, it is still a religion. If a religion is a parody, it is still a religion. It would easily be argued that the two concepts are not related, satire and parody being a variable, religion being a completely different variable. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.125.168.2 (talk) 17:10, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Based on what sources?Charles (talk) 17:43, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I think "religion" should be defined first. Then, if it fits the definition, classify Pastafarianism as such.  Liberty5651 (talk) 18:02, 16 April 2019 (UTC)


 * That would be WP:OR. The only thing that matters is what reliable secondary sources say.


 * Pastafarianism: The Newest Dutch Religion
 * Spaghetti injunction: Pastafarianism is not a religion, Dutch court rules
 * Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster breaks another milestone in New Zealand
 * Jedis And Pastafarians: Real Religion Or Just A Joke?
 * Is Pastafarianism a real religion?
 * Court to spaghetti: You are not a god


 * --Guy Macon (talk) 18:14, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
 * There is no consensus on what constitutes exact parameters on what a religion is, or is not. The religion wiki page states so.  The articles Guy Macon offer are mostly from reliable sources, but focus primarily on NZ and Dutch legal decisions.  Some countries require legal authority to be a recognized religion.  Some reliable sources term the FSM as a religion.  Others don't. There is no absolute consensus across all reliable sources on whether FSM is a religion.  Likewise, there is no evidence that legal recognition is required for something to be real (i.e., same sex marriage has occurred for centuries, but has only recently been recognized by some countries.  Prior to legal recognition, same-sex marriage still existed).   For a Wiki, to offer that some beliefs are religious and others are not, based upon unrelated opinion (parody, satire, etc.) is discriminatory.  Perhaps an allegory could be made that if a page on Islam were edited to state that it is not a religion, as some reliable sources (perhaps some Christian based publications) state that it is not a religion.  Such an example is extreme, of course, but to the larger point.  FSM as a religion cannot be denied simply because some individuals think it is a parody or if it is indeed a parody (as per reference to Jediism above).  I don't believe it is the job of a wiki to discriminate.

https://www.ulc.org/ulc-blog/about-the-church-of-the-flying-spaghetti-monster https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/church-of-the-flying-spaghetti-monster-conducts-first-legal-wedding-new-zealand-a6987971.html https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/01/us/pasta-strainer-license-photo-trnd/index.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.125.168.2 (talk) 15:29, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Where were these courts 2000 years ago as Christianity developed into a religion, or 3000+ years ago when all manner of gods and creatures were worshiped as religions? Because we have current religions means to worship shouldn't preclude new ones from forming. Liberty5651 (talk) 21:26, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
 * What about the court of Pontius Pilate 2,000 years ago which ruled what was and what was not a religion? — kashmīrī  TALK  23:08, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
 * That's good, diverse, source material. Liberty5651 (talk) 13:38, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Merrian Webster on Religion: (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural, (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is a religion and this encyclopedia should reflect as such. Opinions of a few random journalists cannot change reality. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion Clifford Geertz, one of the most famous and influential anthropologists of all time, notes that religion is defined as a special system of symbols that establishes powerful "moods and motivations" in people, formulates a "general order of existence", makes these conceptions appear as fact, makes these moods and motivations seem "uniquely realistic". Geertz, C. (1965). Religion as a Cultural System In Reader in Comparative Religion, William A. Lessa and Evon Z. Vogt. Clearly the FSM does all these things, as evidenced even in the journalists depictions provided thusfar. Emile Durkheim, one of the pinnacle sociologists of all time and a primary researcher on religion, defines religion as; "...a unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things, that is to say, things set apart and forbidden – beliefs and practices which unite into one single moral community called a Church, all those who adhere to them." Durkheim, É. From The Elementary Forms of Religious Life (1912). Again, clearly FSM does all these things. Formal request to edit initial sentences to the following: "The Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) is the deity of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Pastafarianism. Pastafarianism (a portmanteau of pasta and Rastafarianism) is a religion that opposes the teaching of intelligent design and creationism in public schools. Pastafarians believe the tenets of the FSM provide a general order of existence, believe their conceptions to be fact, and are unified in belief under sacred practices of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster." The two subsequent statements should be moved to the legal status portion of the article and have no business in the introduction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.125.168.2 (talk) 16:47, 3 October 2019 (UTC) I, too, think that the article should mark Pastafarianism as a religion. If there is someone who claims belief in a religious as a real religion, and we have no way to disprove that claim of belief, it is a religion. The article itself admits that there are people that claim it as a real religion, and I am one of them. It is true we have no way of proving that our deity or any of our religious teachings are true, however the same can be said of any other religion that is considered a "real religion". Personally, I believe the teachings of Pastafarianism to be true, and thus I claim it as my religion. ~Piki (talk) 21:08, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Request July 5 2020
Please detail Ramendan, the holiday of eating tons of ramen noodles

Please detail Pastover, a celebration of when the first pirates made their first ship, The Venganza. On this day, You prepare a large "Heaping bowl" of pasta, Smear some tomato sauce on your doorstep, And then eat the pasta, If you can't finish it, you have to give it to your in-laws

Please detail Holiday as basically CHristmas

Add that the FSM is okay if you eat vegan meatballs instead of meat meatballs

PLease update the statistics of how many people are part of the chruch of the FSM. More than just a few thousand. Add the belief that the FSM presses his noodly appendages on each person's head to stimulate gravity, but people are getting taller because there are more humans and less noodly appendages

the FSM made the world look older than it was by placing dino bones.. humans were decended from pirates mention that the beer in hell is also lukewarm 2601:646:8600:C310:C942:F18F:2D7E:22F3 (talk) 21:12, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * IP editor, we need sources to make any of these additions. Also, the holiday that is being satirized per the name and your description is Passover, not Christmas. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 21:17, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting comment.svg Note: Setting to answered for now. You can reactivate the request later by setting . Please also remember to state the specific changes you want made. In this case, this probably means writing out any sections you want added, so that the editor responding to your request ideally only needs to insert them into the article in the right place. See also Edit requests. Rummskartoffel (talk) 21:33, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅ I found a source that supported thei inclusion Of the two holidays you mentioned, plus International Talk Like a Pirate Day. If you wish to expand further, please be specific about the changes and what third-party sources support them. BiologicalMe (talk) 21:50, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Cultural impact vs. trivia
Should the Flying Spaghetti Monster's appearance in 2020's Rock of Ages 3: Make & Break be documented in the wiki page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.127.254.99 (talk) 19:43, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Only if it it actually can be demonstrated to have a strong cultural impact through discussions (not mentions) in published third-party reliable sources. The difference between trivia and general-interest cultural impact is overt discussion beyond isolated enclaves on the internet. Based on my cursory search, the answer would be no. BiologicalMe (talk) 20:31, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 August 2020
as pastafarian like wear colanders and colander Came in all shapes, sizes and colors so if we cant get access to a colander we are able to dye are different colors so we can fell closer to the Flying Spaghetti Monster Mythic897Dragon (talk) 09:07, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Chaheel Riens (talk) 09:12, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Evolution News
Although not considered a reliable source it can of course be used with attribution for someone's opinion where relevant. There were two instances but I removed one that did not appear to be in proper context or due. The other seems fine that describes FSM as a parody of Christian beliefs in another section... — Paleo Neonate  – 05:29, 8 September 2020 (UTC)