Talk:Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse/Archive 1

This archive page covers approximately the dates between March 2004 and July 2010.

Post new replies to the main talk page, and summarize the section you are replying to (if necessary).

Please add new archivals to Talk:Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse/Archive 2 when necessary (probably around 2011). (See How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 02:39, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Horsemen Table
I edited the horsemen table (after another edit had been made). This was intended as temporary as I'm sure some of you will fix it up, I just wanted to avert an edit/undo cycle between calling the first horsemen 1 thing or another. I added 'proposed names' because the table needs reworking anyway. Its misleading to indicate that any but Death has an explicit name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.113.3 (talk) 02:53, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Biblical source
I noticed that revision 242842693, which I made and which was simply an quoting of the biblical passage that describes the Horsemen (Revelations 6 or something), was removed because it was "POV and OT". How is citing the original source either POV or Off-Topic? Thanks. 86.70.151.57 (talk) 18:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Colors
I seem to remember that the first horseman rode a green horse and Death a pale white horse. Can someone check that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.190.134.238 (talk) 18:43, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Pestilence has always traditionally ridden a white horse. Death on the other hand has always ridden a green-pale colour like horse. The first Horseman has never ridden a green horse before in all the depictions of the Four Horsemen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.181.208.168 (talk) 15:26, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Pale=sickly=greenish. 67.188.192.11 (talk) 04:31, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * "The color of Death's horse is written as khlôros (χλωρóς) in the original Koine Greek, which is often translated as "pale", though "ashen", "pale green", and "yellowish green"[6]"


 * Χλω-Ρ-ός = green/tender
 * Χλω-M-ός = pale


 * know the difference --94.65.118.227 (talk) 16:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Rewrite or restructure needed?
Regretfully, I find this one of the least helpful articles in Wikipedia, not least because of the lack of NPOV, lack of sources, and lack of a clear purpose. All these issues have already been noted below. Could I propose a rewrite, or at least a reorganisation?

To me, the key areas to cover would be:

1 Introduction (the core concept, origin of the concept, and a reference to the _popular_ interpretation (famine, plague, war, pestilence, or whatever it is, sourced to something), since this is probably what most people are looking for, without a discussion as to whether or not it is the 'true' interpretation)

2 Original context (ie, the text of Revelation, but without any particular interpretation attached to it, and the Zechariah text)

3 Historical usage (notable, verifiable and sourced usages of the topic, whether theological or artistic, divided as follows:) i Apostolic Fathers and Church Fathers

ii Early medieval (eg, Nennius, Wulfstan, Aelfric (?), etc)

iii Late medieval (any Scholastic or other commentaries, mystery plays, literature)

iv Renaissance (esp art and literature)

v Reformation (eg, interpretations recorded from Luther, Calvin, Melanchthon, etc)

vi Post-Reformation theology (hugely controversial, views should be noted and sourced, without an attempt to assess or defend the 'correct' one)

vii Post-Reformation art and literature (to include eg Ingmar Bergman and Terry Pratchett, but not a 'trivia' section of miscellaneous cultural references)

4 Key movements (ie, notable organisations or movements, current and historical, which have adopted a particular, and sourceable approach to the topic, where this forms a key part of their identity -- this section could well be empty!)

Although Wikipedia editors tend to prefer internet links as sources, it's probably worth attempting to get references to printed and published works, since this is one of the topics which generates endless internet pages whose validity is hard to further verify.

I'm sure I've trodden on loads of toes by suggesting this, so my apologies in advance.Martin Turner 22:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree this article needs significant restructuring, there are multiple contradictions such as the table claiming the first horseman represents the anti Christ and then the first scentence under White Horse stating that this horseman is often erroneously believed to represent the anti Christ. ASA-IRULE 04:14, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Proposed restructure
1 Original text

2 Summary table of horse description - interpretation free

3 Interpretations

3.1.1 Interpretation 1

3.1.2 Interpretation 1 summary table

3.2.1 Interpretation 2

3.2.2 Interpretation 2 summary table

etc.

4 Examination of each horse

5 Interpretation changes over time - include changes proposed by Martin Turner

6 Zechariah's horses

7 See also

8 Notes

Seven Deadly Sins to Four Horsemen?
Pride,Envy,Greed and Wrath lead to War

Sloth leads to Pestilence

Gluttony leads to Famine

One question though :

How can Lust lead to Death?

Discuss. - R.G. 16:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think the seven deadly sins have anything to do with the Four Horsemen. In my opinion, the Horsemen represent the ravages of the world and mankind's helplessness at the hands of God. The sins are something completely unrelated and have no real connection to them. However, if I had to guess, my thoughts are that Greed is the ultimate sin, and every other deadly sin is a result of it. Therefore, it can be said that Greed leads to war (not to mention conquering), pestilence, and famine, which inevitably lead to Death. -- ...Wiki wøw  21:43, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well it would be silly to say that the four *evil* horsemen have nothing to do with the seven *evil* deadly sins, but I personally don't see any direct correlation or individual links between each of them.--ASA-IRULE (talk) 03:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Table and picture overlap
Could someone fix the table/picture overlap so the table can be read, tnx Stmoose 05:33, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Pestilence and Pratchett
Can someone please explain where pestilence came from, since it does not seem to be from the biblical passage?

Discworld's four horsemen deserve mention
 * Then put them in, no? PMC 23:54, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

In Good Omens the old horsemen do not become a biker gang, rather a biker gang becomes the new horsemen.

No, no, you're wrong. The Four Horsepersons of the Apocalypse do in fact become a biker gang. Members of another biker gang join them as sort of junior horsemen.67.142.130.38 15:15, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Why does the text say, pestilence carries a bow with no arrows, while on the picture he does carry arrows? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.5.155.191 (talk) 18:21, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Erm, the Discworld bit is wrong. The horse isn't named Kaos, Ronnie's real name is Kaos. Hang on, let me get my copy of Thief of Time...
 * Ok, let me find the right page/section, it's right near the back. Aha, the section from page 348 in this book, starting "Vanity, vanity, thought Lu-Tze, as the milk cart rattled through the silent street."... Actually, no, wait, the section starting page 354. On page 357:
 * "My customers do depends on me..." Ronnie Soak mumbled.
 * "What customers? That's Soak speaking," said Lu-Tze. "That's not the voice of Kaos."
 * Also, is it worth noting that their horses are different in the Discworld? I mean, it must be mentioned in several books that death's horse would even be called white by horsey-people who would typically call such horses "grey", but I think the others change as well. I think it's in the same book...
 * Ok, page 369, where Pestilence appears:
 * "Am I late, then?" said a voice in the night.
 * A horse walked forward. It gleamed unhealthily, like a gangrenous wound just before the barber-surgeon would be called in with his hacksaw for a quick trim.
 * It doesn't describe Famine's horse, apart from
 * A horse walked out of the darkness. Some toast racks had more flesh.
 * War's horse is still red however.
 * The horse of War was huge and red and the heads of dead warriors hung from the saddle horn.
 * Also, Kaos later becomes Chaos, which is "Kaos with his hair combed and a tie on".
 * Is that worth putting in, or have I just been rambling for no reason?
 * TheDarkFlame (talk) 19:36, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

What was their purpose?
The article didn't explain what or who they were, so I added a short sentence giving some information. Someone elaborate, please, I'm not Christian and have no real knowledge about the horsemen (which is why I wanted the information in the first place). --Spug 13:07, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

* * * What do WAR, TRADE and DEATH have in common? They are the three mysterious Horsemen of the Apocalypse. They represent some of the true forces shaping our world today. Second Seal

"And when He had opened the second seal..here went out another horse that was red, and power was given to him and to him that sat thereon it was given to take peace from the earth, and that they should slay one another: and there was given unto him a great sword." Rev 6.4 This second horse obviously represents war, as there has hardly been a day in the Worlds's history without people killing each other. Horse is red as the color of blood. Third Seal "And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, Come. And I saw, and behold, a black horse; and he that sat thereon had a balance in his hand. Rev 6:6 And I heard as it were a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, A measure of wheat for a shilling, and three measures of barley for a shilling; and the oil and the wine hurt thou not." Rev 6.6 Here we see coming the horse of commerce, the horse of money and heartless capitalism,and with it famine. One symptom of famine is a skin condition called Xerosis, as the condition grows worse, the skin is often mottled, or has dark blotches with different shades of color. Fourth Seal And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, Come. Rev 6:8 And I saw, and behold, a pale horse: and he that sat upon him, his name was Death; and Hades followed with him. And there was given unto them authority over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with famine, and with death, and by the wild beasts of the earth. So the final horse is death in all its forms.

First Seal

And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon had a bow; and there was given unto him a crown: and he came forth conquering, and to conquer. This first Horseman is obviously Jesus, with a crown, all in white, going forth conquering and to conquer. At the time of this revelation the early christians indeed went forward and conquered the Roman Empire. The message of love and redemption more powerful than any human force.

Conclusion In these few verses we have a remarkable description of the true forces shaping humanity today. First and foremost Jesus, the Son of God. Second, War, the total opposite of love. Third commercialism, capitalism, motivated by greed, for the benefit of the few and the exploitation of billions. And finally fourth, Death in all of its forms.


 * The early church was in opposition to the early roman catholic church. Ceasar exploited the image of the church to keep his people under him using a false gospel. So the church did not conquer Rome, but rather Rome reabsorbed the misguided multitude from the church. This was to prevent civil unrest. The four horsemen carry a common theme, subjecation of the people under a rule not of God. This is a similar pattern used against early Israel every time they turned against God. They were conquered by pagans, defeated in war, suffered famines, then death. Many refer to the white horse as pestilence because it follows cause and effect.
 * For example: Pestilence strikes. It kills many with disease, and destroys crops. War follows to control the dwindling resources. When a winner is found, he rations the remaining resources due to famine. Ultimately, the rationing of resources and the disease and starvation of the populations results in massive death. The victims of the four horsemen meet their ultimate judgement in hell (hades).
 * If the first hourseman were Christ, after he's conquered why would he let the rest happen. Then, why would he come to conquer on a white horse a SECOND time. When he's described as on a white horse, he subjegates the anti-christ and throws him into a temporary prison (a demi-hell). -- 206.180.38.20 (talk) 14:08, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Andreas7000

The rider of the white horse is the false prophet (not Christ, as some have claimed). The rider of the red horse represents war; the black horse, famine; and the pale horse, pestilence.

Robert Merlin Evenson/Church of Ouzo bobevenson@yahoo.com

The discussion with a possible interpretation of the colours of the horses added by Dreamyshade on 23 Mar 2002 appears to have been copied from Metaweb:  Is this copying permitted? Just asking...

Dueling interpretations
We need to reach some consensus on what interpretations (and how many of them) we want to include in this article. I'm fairly well read in "traditional" Christian interpretation of Revelations, and I can say without exaggeration that everything I've read agrees with White=Antichrist, Red=War, Black=Famine, and Pale=Death.

The white rider isn't Christ. The horsemen are each released as a particular curse or judgment on the Earth. Even if you're not Christian, and/or disagree with literal interpretation of Revelations, and/or believe it to be divinely inspired, I think you'll have to agree that the author would not have described Christ as a curse.

The "popular" tradition is naming the riders War, Famine, Pestilence, and Death. I can't say how old this tradition is, but it certainly postdates scholarly interpretation of Revelations, which goes back to the 1st century AD. It would be a good research project to try and determine how and why this change took place. (One thought would be that pop culture retained knowledge of the number of horses, but most people weren't familiar with the notion of "Antichrist", and so Pestilence (or disease, or whatever) came in to replace it.)

Calling one of the horsemen "Taxation" is very much a modern (and fringe) interpretation. I don't think it is within the mandate of Wikipedia to document every interpretation which is floated.

I've reverted to my last edit, which includes material from both myself and Dreamyshade (see above). I don't want to be part of an edit war, though, so let's have a discussion here about this. I don't plan to continue reverting to my version.

Jeffr 15:50, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Meaning of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Would the horsemen not be a referance to the angels cast from heaven at the end of the great war. Now twisted in form and released onto the world by Satan, who to my understanding was damned to hell, never to walk the earth, hence the fallen angels, now acting on behalf of Satan, they will walk the face of the Earth doing the deeds of their master. Which would be the destruction of all that is good to spite God, in an effort to redeem himself. As the angels that were cast out of heaven, along with Satan, believed that God loved the human race more than he loved them, now seeking not only redemption, but revenge. In closing, as we look at the world around us can we not deny that the horsemen are not already among us. 4.158.228.212 02:22, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Unrelated I know, but when God created Man he intended for angels to worship them. If god was all knowing how comes he didn't see some angels get pissed off with this? For a forgiving god he was pretty petty in expelling Satan and his gang from heaven. To my understanding, the Great War was triggered by God's ignorance and obliviousness to his angels. If anyone is to blame for this war its God. If anyone is to blame for Satan and the evil that walks the earth its god. Just goes to show - Evil is born from "Good". If you can call it Evil. I'd call it common sense and refusal to worship other flawed lesser beings. When Lucifer built his throne above all others he was making a protest - not a rebellion. The four horsemen aren't the creation of Satan - rather flaws God placed in his flawed creations.

Take 5
I'm thinking this isn't the place for it, but...what about the Fifth Horseman? As I understand it, there's a Gnostic gospel that has him, called Oblivion or Extinction; source I've never been able to find... Anybody? Trekphiler 08:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I have found a passage from Revelation referring to what could be cosidered the fifth horseman "oblivion or extinction" - Jesus returning to wreak vengence upon the earth it seems.

Pagren 23:41, 04 October 2006


 * Can you name it? (Boy, I'm really on top of this, huh...?) Trekphiler 09:12, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

restructure
I think that this article might be easier to read if the different interpretations of the vision section were structured according to which Christian sect or church adhered to that interpretation. I think this could make more sense than lots of sentences that seem to start with "some believe" and "there are those that think"... anyone wanna help? --talkie_tim 08:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Apocolypse Unsealed
Would you take issue with me adding a bit about another interpretation that is based in another religion than Christianity? The Bahai faith considers itself to be to Christianity (among other religions) what Christianity is to Judeaism. A fulfillment. A book was once published called Apocolypse:Unsealed that explains this in a different context.

briefly He is Perveted Religion. The Word of God corrupted. Islamic Extremism? He is still war this one is pretty clear to everyone it seems.
 * The first horseman:
 * The second horseman:

The black horse reveals the dark attributes of this force. Greed and Envy will motivate this horse's rider, and he holds in his hands the unbalanced scales of Economic Injustice. The victim of the transaction is permitted survival rations for his labors, but is denied the commodities of luxury. ''A day's wage for a quart of flour, a day's wage for three quarts of barley-meal! But do not damage the olive oil and the vine!'' He isn't pestilence, or physical death, but he is the spiritual death of unbelief. The same type of death Christ talks about in the gospels when he says thing like "Let the dead bury the dead"
 * The third horseman :
 * The fourth horseman:

If don't see any comment here in a 24 hours I will take it as nobody taking issue with it. and go ahead and write it.

Rahonavis 13:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I think calling Islamic extremism perverted religion is a bit silly and shows your cultural bias. In terms of the purity of the gospel they preach; Both Sunni, Shia and Kurdish Islam, (not to mention the rest) are far less corrupted than Catholicism and its derivatives, which describe Jesus' brother Judas as a traitor in order to discredit the version of Christianity promoted by the original Jewish Christians as opposed to the pagan gentiles. Christmas – pagan, hell – pagan, the abolition of women from the bible over a thousand years after it was written in order to preserve the churches wealth – totally against the word of god.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Great article on four horsemen by-the-way, don't change a thing.

Much content is irrelevant.
Such as the Online Games, Music, and telivision section, at the very least this excerpt is invalid "For a few years, Graal the Adventure (now known as Graal Classic) had a magic system. The evil half of the spectrum consisted of War, Famine, Pestilence, and Death." First off there was no evil half of a spectrum of their magic system, and those were never mentioned in that game, and second of all the GraalOnline article was deleted because it was non notable... Vipercat 19:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

All this has happened before and all this will happen again?
I noticed some similarities to the beginning of the 20th Century;

> 1st Horseman - Flase Peace/Conquers - The build up of the European Empires in the 1800's and the interlocking alliance treaties in the early 1900's

> 2nd Horseman - War - The First World War (perhaps the sword represents a superweapon or tactic that takes more lives than usual in previus wars? use of tanks/machine guns/trench warfare)

> 3rd Horseman - Famine/Unfair Trade - Great Depression, American expliotation of post-war Europe / exceptionally high tarrifs

> 4th Horseman - Sickness, Death - Spanish Flu Epidemic - killed more than the first world war and death of the great european empires

The cycle can then be seen to repeat;

> 1st Horseman - False Peace/Conquers - Rise of Hitler and expansion into Europe whilst others seek peace with him "peace in our time"

> 2nd Horseman - War - Second World War (perhaps the sword represents the atomic bomb?)

> 3rd Horseman - Famine/Unfair Trade - Rising Oil Prices etc / 3rd World Famine (present)

> 4th Horseman - Sickness, Death - Bird Flu? Some greater unseen epidemic? Smallpox?

"Fifth Horseman? As I understand it, there's a Gnostic gospel that has him, called Oblivion or Extinction"

- perhaps the cycle repeats itself until the "arrival of the fith horseman" when life has reached a point where there is so little life left it is impossible to repopulate the human race?.

i think the four Horsemen of the apocalypse might also refer to the four different "corners" of the world.The 1st(white) horse was holding a bow,(symbol of victory)and was bent on conquest,and kill by the sword(justice),so i think this could most likely be refering to the NW corner of th earth,(as seen on a map)which would be America.The 2nd(red)horse was given power to take away peace from this earth and set people killing each other.This I think is refering to the SW corner of the earth (mexico,coloubia,etc.) drug cartels are killing their own people everyday,and have the 2nd plague,which kills by famine. The 3rd (black) horsemen refers to the 3rd, or NE corner(russia,Asia,europe).this horsemen holds a pair of scales in his hand (which I think symbolize communism)and kills by plague(bird-flu and bubonic plague came from Eurasian "NE" continent). The fourth (gray-symbol of death) and final horseman would then be th SW corner(middle east;africa)of the earth. this horseman killed by wild beasts.these "wild beasts" can either mean literal wild beasts,in which poisonous snakes,cobras, and scorpions kill many.OR,these wild beast may symbolize killers,warfare,violence,weapons... im not sure this is the meaning of the horsemen,but its a pretty good guess- BY TONY MICHEL(70.114.32.55 22:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC))

never seen a more ridicule accumulation of half-truths (your timeline is completely off the wall/bird flu orignally came up in south eastern asia, that's pretty far damn away from "NE", etc), misinterpretations (why the hell would anyone even care about where we center our damn world map e.g. do you have any understanding of the meaning of the word "globe") and flawed ideas/images of the world around you (africa the somewhat retarded continent?! america the great victor and defender of freedom of justice instead of any transitional super power (just as so many other cultures were in the past) +++ i could go on for hours.. yeah it's a pretty good guess though... omfg--84.73.71.246 (talk) 23:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

POV
This article is very biased. Just take a look at this little number under "Alernative interpretations" (particularly POV words are bolded):


 * An alternate, albeit incorrect, interpretation, likely based on the eschatological ignorance of the reade[r]s, incorrectly holds the first Horseman to represent War or the Antichrist, the second to represent Pestilence (sometimes called Plague), while the third and fourth riders remain Famine and Death, respectively.


 * Another incorrect interpretation, which is largely drawn from a flawed reading of the descriptions of the effects of each of the horsemen, is that the white represents foreign warfare or conquest (" went forth conquering, and to conquer"), the red represents civil war or domestic strife ("that they should kill one another"), the black represents famine ("A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine"), and the pale represents pestilence or disease in its various forms (" to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth").

¿Ummm?...alright, if people wanna believe this stuff, that's cool, but no one has the right to say what interpretation of the Horsemen or any other part of the Bible is correct or not, especially considering Revelation's overall ambiguity. I'm gonna make this section a bit more NPOV if no one minds. But if you do, please give a reason. --Wikiwøw ­­ 14:30, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

- BY all means go ahead and change it. It looks to me as though somone obviously loves Jesus too much which is why those who believe jesus may be one of the horsemen have been called stupid and ignorant. Thanks for pointing this out! - Pagren


 * Woah, buddy, I never said Christians were stupid, virtually all my friends and everyone I know happen to be "followers of Jesus." But I just think it's a shame that some people have lost sight of Christianity's true purpose, which isn't about prophecies of killer horsemen and tribulation, but to teach peace and kindness and all that other good stuff they show on NickJunior or whatever they're feeding kids these days. To actually argue and claim you know the true meaning of such a trivial part of the Bible as this (and from Revelations nonetheless) is not only futile and pointless in my opinion, but corrupt, as it would elevate religion to the level of a science; when in fact, it's all a philosophy, and passages like these should be taken with a grain of salt. To each his own interpretation, that's what religion is really about. --Wikiwøw ­­ 21:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikiwøw- sorry about that I think you got the wrong end of the stick! :s *hangs head in embarrasment* my point was that wikipedia is here to offer all possible explanations or something along those lines - therefore if there is a wide belief that the fourth horseman is Jesus it should be mentioned. It doesn't necessarily mean its a flawed interpretation or is ignorant as the original article suggested. Wikipedia isn't a church and certainly suggesting Jesus is the 4th horseman isn't blasphemous in my opinion. My super-sarcastic comment was supposed to reflect this. Everyone has a right to their beliefs or opinions. Not just Christians or Musilms etc. Just because someone thinks something is wrong doesn't mean they should start putting everything as Misinformed and ignorant. As for Christianity's true purpose - I think people have lost sight of that since the beginning. Kinda like most religions in general really. They have all been used for the purpose of controlling a population and still are to this day to some extent. All except buddhism - Maybee because there aren't any particular deities involved that you have to blindly worship. As I said before though - everyone has a right to their views. Unless obviously their view is that suicide bombing places is acceptable, preaching death to a country's monarch, its people and its government in the street is acceptable and that Hugh Jackman is a good actor - those people should be shot. - Pagren
 * Hehe, well, sarcasm doesn't convey itself too clearly on a talk page, maybe it was just my bad; and the Buddhism thing, I agree, it is really the only respectable, genuine religion left (er, not sure about Hugh Jackman :-P). But more to the point, as long as we keep all sides of the article in check and treat it just as unbiased as an article on South American tree frogs, it's in good shape. After all, part of the reason I watch over pages like this despite my beliefs is to make sure Wikipedia's religion articles aren't abused or filled with stupid shiite (get it, a pun?). --Wikiwøw ­­ 15:45, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Death's scythe
I want to point out that the fourth horseman, Death, is said to carry a scythe in this article. However, the Biblical account nowhere mentions such or any kind of a physical weapon held by this rider. He is sometimes depicted as carrying a scythe, but the scythe wasn't even a symbol of death back then. Also, perhaps the fact that Death was followed by hell/Hades could be mentioned in the chart, seeing as it seems to be an important feature of him.


 * Quite right. I did the original table and didn't notice I was parrotting popular culture rather than summarizing scripture.  I'll revise. Jeffr 18:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually it was a symbol of death:
 * The portrayal of the scythe originates from a Hellenistic etymological misconception relating the god Cronus with time. Cronus was a harvest deity who is often shown with a sickle, which he also uses to castrate his father Uranus. Etymologists from the Hellenistic period erroneously correlated Cronus with time due to the similarity with the prefix chrono-. From this mistake, Cronus was often depicted as Father Time, carrying a scythe, which is a harvesting tool related to the sickle. The characters of Father Time and the Grim Reaper frequently overlap, leading to the common portrayal of the Grim Reaper brandishing a scythe. [citation needed] As well the conception of the 'harvest' and the reaper reaping the weeds and grain in the field in a parable by Jesus, describing Final Judgement.


 * its also a symbol of death in the book of revelation itself and the harvest is a well known symbol of death in the rest of the bible. Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 04:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Covenant From Hell
The white horseman is carrying a bow, in the Greek it is 'toxon'. The only other place it is used is in Genesis 9, where God uses it as a token of a covenant with Noah. Daniel 9:27 says the antichrist enforces a 'covenant', known as the 'covenant from hell'. BMurray 19:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Notre Dame
I know it seems like blasphemy to many, but should we be offering a see-also reference to the old Notre Dame squad at the top of the page? In a modern context, that Fighting Irish team is often simply referenced as "The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse..." Editor Emeritus 22:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Darf ich auch kommentieren?
Matthew 24

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Tell us, they said, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? ... 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

Matthew 24

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Luke 21 7 Teacher, they asked, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place? 8 He replied: Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and 'The time is near.' Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away. 10 Then he said to them: '''Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.''' Revelation 12

7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down- that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. 12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short. (Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow- servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. - Revelation 6:11)

Revelation 6

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. (And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14) 10 They called out in a loud voice, How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood? 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow- servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

1st Horseman - Jesus Christ as King. (1914 ->)
Revelation 19 "16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:king of kings and lord of lords." "the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ."

"what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" (1914);

"Michael and his angels fought against the dragon";

and why this 3 horses following:
The great dragon was hurled down- that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.... 12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! '''But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.''' (Satan and his demons do not make eartquake, but other things. "There will be great earthquakes") Jesus says eartquake as sign.

4th Horseman - "pestilences in various places" and killers, terror, slaughter, etc. (1914 ->)
2 Timothy 3

1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God- 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

Not in 1914 but in Armageddon:
Isaiah 24

21 In that day the LORD will punish the powers in the heavens above (For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. - Ephesians 6:12) and the kings on the earth below. 22 They will be herded together like prisoners bound in a dungeon; they will be shut up in prison and be punished after many days.

Zephaniah 1

14 The great day of the LORD is near- near and coming quickly. Listen! The cry on the day of the LORD will be bitter, the shouting of the warrior there. 15 That day will be a day of wrath, a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness, 16 a day of trumpet and battle cry against the fortified cities and against the corner towers. 17 I will bring distress on the people and they will walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD. Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like filth. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD's wrath. In the fire of his jealousy the whole world will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live in the earth.

Revelation 6

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig-tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?

In Armageddon and 1000 years later after Armageddon:
Revelation 20 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations any more until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Sorry, I dont speak english. --88.247.183.234 21:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

OR
Is it just me, or does this reek of original research?


 * Inevitably, original research is going to play a role in almost any given biblical subject, since there are so many opinions and perspectives on the matter. Nonetheless, something should be done to weed out all this original research and stick to what the Bible says. -- ...Wiki wøw  16:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't really see why original research is needed in a Biblical subject. More has been published on the Bible than any other book: it shouldn't be too much to ask for people to state which book they are getting their stuff from. Martin Turner 23:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Redirect
Hey, don't know if anyone noticed or not, but Four horsemen and Four Horseman both redirect to a dab page (contradicting the italicized statement at the top of this page). Just a heads-up. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.252.169.228 (talk) 03:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC).

Meaning of Four Horseman
It seems to me that there is a lot of original research here. As far as I know, the four horsemen go like this:

1st is white, represents conquest, carries a bow (which at the time was seen as a symbol of military power), most likely refers to the antichrist, not some agent working on Christ's behalf as this article suggests is the most common view (not the case) He wears a crown, but a different type than the one that is worn by God at he end.

2nd is red, represents strife (war), has a sword and the power to turn people and countries against one another.

3rd is plague, carries scales, the prices for grain that are mentioned are equal to the average daily wages for men at the time (so a person would only be able to pay for his own food, and not support a family.)

4th is sallow (pale green) represents death, is followede by hell.

no idea where some of the information on the page comes from, and no clue how some conclusions were made. (clarify somewhat?)

Some people beleive that the horseman are not to be interprated literally, but rather symbolicly. In otherwords, the four horseman represent four parts of the human mind, Spirtual, Emotional, Intilectual, and Physical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.6.79.45 (talk) 15:08, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

"O king, and there before you stood a large statue- an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance."

 * 1- Babylon - The head of the statue was made of pure gold


 * 2- Medo-Persia - its chest and arms of silver


 * 3- Greece - its belly and thighs of bronze


 * 4- Rome - its legs of iron


 * 5- Anglo-America (Great Britain-America) - its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay

Daniel 2

24 Then Daniel went to Arioch, whom the king had appointed to execute the wise men of Babylon, and said to him, Do not execute the wise men of Babylon. Take me to the king, and I will interpret his dream for him. 25 Arioch took Daniel to the king at once and said, I have found a man among the exiles from Judah who can tell the king what his dream means. 26 The king asked Daniel (also called Belteshazzar), Are you able to tell me what I saw in my dream and interpret it? 27 Daniel replied, No wise man, enchanter, magician or diviner can explain to the king the mystery he has asked about, 28 but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in days to come. Your dream and the visions that passed through your mind as you lay on your bed are these: 29 As you were lying there, O king, your mind turned to things to come, and the revealer of mysteries showed you what is going to happen. 30 As for me, this mystery has been revealed to me, not because I have greater wisdom than other living men, but so that you, O king, may know the interpretation and that you may understand what went through your mind. 31 You looked, O king, and there before you stood a large statue- an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. '''32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing-floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.''' 36 This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold. 39 After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron- for iron breaks and smashes everything- and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay. '''44 In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure for ever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands- a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and the interpretation is trustworthy.''' 46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell prostrate before Daniel and paid him honour and ordered that an offering and incense be presented to him. 47 The king said to Daniel, Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery. 48 Then the king placed Daniel in a high position and lavished many gifts on him. He made him ruler over the entire province of Babylon and placed him in charge of all its wise men. 49 Moreover, at Daniel's request the king appointed Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego administrators over the province of Babylon, while Daniel himself remained at the royal court.


 * As King Jesus Christ = Michael

Daniel 7

1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying on his bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream. 2 Daniel said: In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea. 3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea. 4 The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it. 5 And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, 'Get up and eat your fill of flesh!' 6 After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule. 7 After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast- terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns. 8 While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 9 As I looked,thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. 10 A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. 11 Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.) '''13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.''' The Interpretation of the Dream 15 I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me. 16 I approached one of those standing there and asked him the true meaning of all this. So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things: 17 'The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it for ever- yes, for ever and ever.' 19 Then I wanted to know the true meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws- the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. 20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell- the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favour of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom. 23 He gave me this explanation: 'The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. 26 'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed for ever. '''27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him. 28 This is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was deeply troubled by my thoughts, and my face turned pale, but I kept the matter to myself.

Daniel 12

'''1 At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people- everyone whose name is found written in the book- will be delivered.''' 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge. 5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled? 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand towards heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives for ever, saying, It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed. 8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, My lord, what will the outcome of all this be? 9 He replied, Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand. 11 From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. 13 As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.


 * Kingdom of God

Revelation 12 7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down- that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. 12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.


 * Armageddon - "they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty."


 * False Religion - God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

Revelation 16

10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony 11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done. 12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed. 16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. 17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, It is done! 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21 From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.


 * United Nations and all states: (The beast and the ten horns)


 * False Religion -> All false religions: (Prostitute-Babylon the Great )


 * This title was written on her forehead: mysterybabylon the great the mother of prostitutes and of the abominations of the earth.


 * The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled.


 * United Nations and all states destruct all false religions before Armageddon.

Revelation 17

1 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2 With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries. 3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5 This title was written on her forehead:mysterybabylon the great the mother of prostitutes and of the abominations of the earth. 6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7 Then the angel said to me: Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. 9 This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. '''10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen -> (In time of Apostle John - Egypt, Assur, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece), one is -> (Rome), the other has not yet come -> (Anglo-America); but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11 The beast -> (United Nations) who once was -> (1918), and now is not -> (1939), is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction. 12 The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings- and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.''' 15 Then the angel said to me, The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. '''16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.'''--88.240.139.133 21:04, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Revelation 19

1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, 2 for true and just are his judgments. He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.


 * In Armageddon:

Revelation 19

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no-one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron sceptre. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in mid-air, Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 '''so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great. 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.''' 20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshipped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulphur. 21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Revelation 11

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshipped God, 17 saying:We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18 The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great- and for destroying those who destroy the earth.

Revelation 20

1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations any more until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.--88.243.24.15 18:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

and why this 3 horses following:

 * against Jerusalem "...to kill its men..."

Ezekiel 14

21 For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments- sword and famine and wild beasts and plague- to kill its men and theiranimals!


 * against the earth and the sea

Revelation 12

The great dragon was hurled down- that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.... Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! '''But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.''' --88.242.219.225 14:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

which one is pestilence?
Revelation 6:1-8 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Okay I'm pretty sure the fourth one is Death, the third one is Famine, but how does the first or second one refer to diseases or anything related to Pestilence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.225.108.24 (talk) 15:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * P. Pestilence is a modern concept, not from the original text. --81.233.196.49 (talk) 18:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

4th Horseman symbolize unexpected death, untimely death.

 * which one is pestilence? It is plague. (Plague = death)

The translations are different:


 * to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


 * to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Revelation 6:

7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, Come! 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.


 * with death: through disease; earthquake


 * a) with the beasts of the earth: through killers, terrorists (persons),


 * b) with the beasts of the earth: slaughter, wars (through persons (Zephaniah 3:3)and states (Daniel 7))

after this comes Hades (grave) the deads to gather --81.214.119.175 19:58, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Have antichrist a crown?
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. - 1 John 2

1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, Come! 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest. - Revelation 6 --88.241.163.205 19:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The three tags on this page
Regarding the three tags on this page: I placed them there. There are no sources cited for the interpretation of the horses. There are words in there like "Appears to be" ,"likely" which look to be original research also there appears to be synthesis in this article as well.

The article is well written, and I myself am a student of the Bible and enjoyed reading it. That being said, this article doesn't conform to the rules of Wikipedia, and therefore it cannot remain in it's current condition. There must be references, especially in the interpretation other than the author's showing where the interpretation came from. Thanks KoshVorlon  ".. We are ALL Kosh..."  17:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Why remove the pictures
Who thought it improved the article to remove the pictures? Jeffr 15:07, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, restored. Cheers, Ryo 06:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Personel opinion? or Is there any verses?
[The] White Horse <=> "Antichrist or other warriors"


 * Is there any vers?

Pestilence <=> Antichrist:

--88.244.41.226 20:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Which relation? Is there any vers?

Alternate view of the Horse Men
This is an alternate view of the horsemen taken from the teachings of one sect of Christianity. Since they are greatly different then everything else that has been discussed I think it behooves me to add it in here in case someone wanted to add it to the article. This view is a historicist view that is taken from the beginning of Jesus' ministry to the second coming of Jesus Christ. This view denotes each seal as a period in time that must occur before the “book” can be opened. It is taken from photocopies that I have of the originals, and is therefore hard to source. That is also why it is incomplete.

First Seal: 30 CE to 70 CE.

“The period of time covered by the First Seal is approximately from AD 30 to AD 70 – the 40 years that the Early Rain Church was in perfect order under the leadership of the apostles of the Lamb.” (Book 4, Rev 6, pg 3 of 13 ???)

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. (Rev 6:2)

Metaphors that are used to support this view: White: A symbol of righteousness and purity. (Rev 19:7-8, 14) Horse: A symbol of the Church. Bow: A symbol of the Covenant of God with His Church. (Gen 9:11-15) Crown: A symbol of the ruler-ship of Jesus over His Church. (Mt 21:5) Conquering and to Conquer: A symbol of the power of the Early Church to conquer their own “fleshly lusts.” (Rom 8:31 and Rom 8:35-39)

Basically this view states that a church in perfect order with Jesus as its head existed for approximately 40 years.

Second Seal: 70 CE to 311 CE.

“The period of time covered by the Second Seal is approximately from AD 70 to AD 311 – from the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans to the beginning of the favorable treatment given Christians under Emperor Constantine.” (Book 4, Rev 6, pg 4 of 13)

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. (Rev 6:3)

And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. (Rev 6:4)

Horse: A symbol of the Church Red: A symbol of man. (According to this book “Adam” comes from the Hebrew אדם [Aw-Dawn] which is related to or derived from red-earth. Also red is connected with sin in Isa 1:18 “...though your sins be as scarlet they shall be white as snow...” Peace from the earth: Denotes the absence of truth, and therefore the absence of God's peace.  Great Sword: unknown

This view relates the second seal to a church that began to lose the truth. Man's doctrine began to replace the truth of Christ leading to a “red” church. The “peace” of Christ began to leave the church. “The color red replaced the color white.” (Book 4, Rev 6, pg 5 of 13 ???)

Third Seal: 311 CE to 538 CE. “The period of time covered by the Third Seal is approximately from AD 311 to AD 538 – from the reign of Constantine to the establishment of the Papacy in Rome.” (Book 4, Rev 6, pg 6 of 13)

And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. (Rev 6:5)

And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. (Rev 6:6)

Black: Symbol of absence of understanding. Black being the opposite of white. Horse: Symbol of Church. Balances: Denotes the influence of economics and politics. Commercialism began to enter the Church. A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny: The truth of God (wheat) is one third as much present as the doctrine and tradition of man (barley). Oil: God's Truth. Wine: God's Spirit.

According to this view of the seals: “By and large, during this time the correct meaning or interpretation of the word of God was lost, leaving [only] the written word....The emperor Constantine embraced Christianity as it existed in his day, and as a result the church and the state were united under his leadership. It became politically and economically wise to profess Christianity....God still had a righteous line through which He would preserve His Truth and Spirit” (Book 4, Rev 6, pg 7 of 13 ???)

Fourth Seal: The information about the fourth seal and onward is unknown by this writer save for one paragraph:

“The period of time covered by the Fourth Seal is approximately from AD 538 to AD 1798 (or 1260 years, [which is of significance prophetically]) – from the time that the Papacy began to exercise its unrestrained and persecuting rule over the inhabitants of the earth, until it was dealt a wound unto death by France.” (Book 4, Rev 6, pg 8 of 13 ???)

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. (Rev 6:7)

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. (Rev 6:8)

From this I would hypothesis that this view connects the beast and 666 with the Papacy and the        Pope respectively (see also Babylon Mystery Religion Ancient and Modern, by Ralph Woodrow)however this is merely conjecture.

Sun.stalker (talk) 18:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

White Horse
Reading this talk page, full of random prophecies and such, I'm not surprised the article is so bad. But in what segments of literature and culture I've picked up in 27 years of life, I have only ever seen the white horse as "pestilence", not antichrist or conquest. Google sets seems to agree. Perhaps the list given is more common in theology or whatnot, and so we need to keep things very clear, what the four horsemen are in different contexts. I unfortunately don't have the knowledge to provide this clarity, or the time to defend against the likely attacks of the sorts of people who seem to frequent this page. I hope such a person will arise to bring unity to the discussion. -- 71.81.192.247 (talk) 18:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I would question you having read anything then. Go read the book of revelations, in fact, that bible passage is Revelations 6:2 "I looked and there before me was a whie horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest". Something which threw me off on this page is the fact that in the table he is reffered to as Pestielence, yet in the actual part of the article on him he is only ever referred to as conquest, conqueror or the antichrist. The idea here being he is essentially a 'false prophet' of peace, in that he comes and conquers in the name of peace, but only heralds/makes way for the second horsemen, war. -- 9:22, 5 April 2008 (EST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.188.243.181 (talk)

Quicksilver
I noticed that the alternative view of the White horseman says that he could represent the Holy Spirit or Quicksilver. I checked the disambiguation and couldn't figure out what the Quicksilver link was supposed to point to. Any thoughts? 164.107.219.76 (talk) 03:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Sentient beings or elemental forces?
If the rider on the white horse represents Christ,or even the/an antichrist; would that not imply that all the riders are what we would consider self-aware? Further implications might be that the named horseman Death is one of the known angels of death (Samael, Azrael/Sariel, or those not mentioned by name) meaning that the first and fourth horsemen are not necessarily antagonistic. Hades pursuit of Death could mean either Hades/Hell/Sheol becomes indistinguishably part of Earth, or could allude to the mythological demigod ruler of that realm. If any of the five mentioned are in fact sentient beings, i would presume that they are angels, devils,or something parallel or similar to them. 12.146.22.19 (talk) 01:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

On what authority?
I don't know where some of the interpretations came from in this article. It often does not represent Christian viewpoints accurately (for the majority mainstream Christians that is), and it does appear to contain a lot of unfounded original research that is not attributable.

I propose a rewrite be done on this article that provides better insight into the most popular interpretations of the Four Horsemen. As mentioned in comments before mine, discrepancies such as which horse is Pestilence need to be worked out. I find the original work here to be intriguing, but there is little to back it up. T geier (talk) 14:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * <.< Let me guess. More "White isn't Conquest," right? What part of "conquering" (from the very source text) is unclear? Pestilence doesn't conquer. It infects/weakens. White has been interpreted as Conquest for dsecades--if not centuries--and not by this articule exclusively. 03:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.140.189.253 (talk)

The Four Horsemen of Atheism
I expect some opposition, but I think this "new atheist" movement deserves a mention here. Searching Google for the term the four horsemen leads to this Wikipedia article as the first result. I clicked into it looking for information on Dawkins, Dennet, Harris and Hitchens.

I've since found my information elsewhere, but if Wiki's aim is to be the sole provider of knowledge on the web, it might pay to have something about this. And this is something that's caused a lot of public acrimony. Dawkins's latest book sold 1.5 m copies in hard cover. People are writing books in response. Et cetera et cetera - what I'm saying is this is a lot more enclopedic than most of the pop culture that litters most articles here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.138.32.33 (talk) 23:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * the biblical concepts of the Horsemen are the mean usage. A disambig page has always been available for uses like that little movie/book. Wikipedia has problems, but this ain't one of them. 03:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Order and interpretation
Looking at this from an entirely non religious viewpoint; wouldn't it make more sense for it to go in the order of: War, Pestilence, Plague/Famine, then Death? Also, I do believe there was mention of an angel (or something of the sort, normally interpreted to be Hades) either in front of, or behind them? Representing either hope or life? I forget the specifics, but there was one painting that really showed it clearly, essentially making the entire concept being an ouroboros. Anyone who knows what I'm referring to, please elaborate? -NemFX (talk) 07:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Revelation 6.1-8 is where this image comes from, and in the source material they are ordered: White, Red, Black, Pale. And also, if you've read Milton's Paradise Lost, then you would know that in no sense of the word could Hades be called an "angel." 96.229.63.68 (talk) 02:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, the first Horseman is Conquest. Pestilence and Famine are the same guy. Your own comments illustrate this, as you use the the word "Plague" synonymously with Famine, when it really has more to do with Pestilence. 03:24, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Links to WikiSource
Could somebody please add the appropriate links to WikiSource? I think we have four different Bible translations there that would be appropriate. Thanks. -- 201.37.229.117 (talk) 18:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

White isn't Disease
I've just read Revelation 6.1-2, the verses about the White horse, and nowhere do I see the words "plague," "disease," or "pestilence." I think this "power" should be removed from the comparative box-chart on the article. If anything, I think his power is a bow: "A white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow." Maybe representative of technologically superior weaponry or something...? But not plague. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.229.63.68 (talk) 02:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Several idiots try to turn Conquest into Pestilence. I think it has something to do with the alt interpretation of Conquest as a good guy. 03:20, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The bowman (on the white horse) kills with arrows but is described as having power to kill 'with the beasts of the earth'. Perhaps the arrows he shoots are symbolic of serpents. Lightning or 'fire of God' would fit the pattern too. Does the bowman shoot lightning bolts? "His arrow shall go forth as the lightning" (Zec 9:14) Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 04:04, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Removed "Interpreted as Historic and Contemporary Events"
I've removed this section for three reasons: 1) it is off topic, 2) it violates NPOV, and 3) it is completely unsourced.

First reason: this is an article about the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. It is not a collection of interpretations. This article, and any such articles, will quickly become unwieldy and unnavigable if one includes any given interpretation.

Second reason: including this interpretation implies that it is somehow essential or more relevant than those that are not included. This is not at all the case. It should be noted that this essay - almost as long as the rest of the article - not only represents a quite specific perspective (that of "Eschatological Historicism") but of a very limited subgenre of Eschatological Historicism, specifically a politcally conservative twentieth and post-twentieth century American perspective. Wikipedia is not a soapbox.

Third reasons: sources would be helpful. I would say that sourcing this section would be a very minimal first step towards any possibility of re-inclusion, though I suspect that sourcing it will immediately identify its NPOV origins. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.174.73.30 (talk) 21:01, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

"Riders as nations" sections
I've removed this. It's clearly a rather fringy opinion and does not seem to be sourced to any serious scholarship, which in an article like this should be the minimal criterion for inclusion. Some neo-evangelical Bible "paraphrase" does surely not qualify. 81.151.198.47 (talk) 21:45, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I second this action, this is a minority view that does not belong on a page about a mainstream topic.

Justification: this is a modern day interpretation that almost exclusively circulates amongst American conservative Christians. It is based on a minority interpretation that requires viewing of Biblical texts through the prism of Neo-conservative political thinking and cold war ideology. It therefore does not pass notability nor relevance criteria to be included on this page.

It should thus be excised from Wikipedia unless a place can be found for it on a page that specifically covers a related topic to which it is both notable and relevant. For example a page covering end of days belief.

CrazyChinaGal (talk) 08:27, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Paul Humphries' book is about the four horsemen. The relevance is 100% or as perfect as anything in the article. Yes, it is a minority view too. Uikku (talk) 12:03, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There was also | an article about the book, but it was deleted. Uikku (talk) 12:16, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but there is no scholarly backing for this interpretation. Humphries book is not a scholarly source, it does not pass WP:V and WP:RS for this page or even WP:Fringe. It may have a place on an article specifically about fringe views or End of Days beliefs, but this page isn't about End of Day's it's about the Biblical Horsemen.


 * CrazyChinaGal (talk) 13:00, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

SO. The White Rider.
Like a few other people have mentioned, I don't understand why the White Rider is called Pestilence in this article. If anything, it seems to me that "Conquest" would be more accurate. Someone probably mentioned something about how the modern interpretation is more popular, but I don't see why that should matter. Honestly, the whole idea of naming them seems pretty silly to me anyway, since "Death" is the only one originally named. No one ever gave the Minotaur a name (if you're going to say, "But Minotaur is a name!", note the 'the', indicating a title rather than a name). On another note, the "alternative interpretation" which defines the White Rider as Pestilence does not cite any reference that even implies the White Rider is Pestilence (in fact, the reference explicitly states that the White Rider is "the conqueror"). TheDestitutionOfOrganizedReligion (talk) 14:45, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Horse and their riders section possible problem
I understand the idea of putting the horseman in the table to give a quick overview of the horsemen but i it has a few possible mistakes and perhaps the titles could be changed.

Issues: As I noticed in another post death is the only one actually named in the original text. The title name is a little misleading. Conquest as the name for the first rider due to the line Rev 6.2 "he went out conquering and to conquer" doesn't really fit. The title power also seems wrong as having a crown and conquering isn't really what i would call a power.

The "powers" of death in Rev 6.8 as "over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth". I think is wrong in my Gideons 2000 edition of the new testament before the line mentioned above the text reads "And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth etc. The line them would suggest that these are the "powers" attributed to all of them. The powers could have been meant to be allocated War - kill with sword, Famine - hunger, Death - death and To kill with beasts of the earth could mean to kill with plague and viruses like what pestilence would do.

Proposed solutions:

The names and powers as with my interpretation are all quite speculative so i think a more accurate table could read something to the effect of; instead of Name, Commonly Used Titles,and include both conquest, pestilence and any others names used for each horseman.Alsoinstead of power, Powers and Tasks and include the description given at the introduction of each horseman and the powers described in Rev 6.8

Not really major changes its just that as it is it seems over simplified and less open to interpretation of the original text.

Please leave some feedback, Cheers. 144.132.131.237 (talk) 15:33, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

bow&scythe=Crescent whereas sword&balance=Cross
The Sword and the balance resemble the Cross. The bow and the scythe resemble the Islamic Crescent. Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 04:07, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

The Greek may be incorrect
The article has "The color of Death's horse is written as khlômos (χλωμóς) ... " The Greek NT has χλωρóς (from which we get chlorine, so named because of its greenish-yellow colour). I can't find χλωμóς in the NT. 150.101.114.154 (talk) 12:03, 14 September 2009 (UTC)Contributor

Shape up
You guys are really doing a crap job with this article. It seems that just recently you saw fit to re-add the two best images of the four to this mess. Don't ask for references to information that obvious (see pestilence, et. al. section). And try to keep a closer eye on this thing in general, since idiots obviously like to come by and add OR. In a word, sloppy, gentlemen. VERY sloppy. 22:11, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Correcting the Greek Text
As noted by another contributor above, the Greek word for "pale" or "pale green" describing the color of Death's horse is spelled incorrectly: it should be "χλωρóς" and not "χλωμóς," so I've changed the Greek text and the transliteration accordingly. You can verify the spelling in two different versions of the Greek text, the Textus Receptus (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=6&v=8&t=MGNT#8) and The Morphological Greek New Testament (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=6&v=8&t=TR#8). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Akasanof (talk • contribs) 00:07, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Colors of the horses
The colors of the horses are acording to the eyes or inverted colors, white for black and red for cyan(or pale).Twentythreethousand (talk) 18:18, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Slight Question
In the paragraph from Revelations above the White horse says that the rider will conquer, yet in the section for the Red horse it is stated that he will conquer. Neither of the claims seems properly sourced, and due to the edditing conflicts that sometime appear on this page I am curious about whether it is right, so is it right? If so can we properly source it. --Reflections of Memory (talk) 01:21, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Wiktionary
Hello, we are trying to improve the definition on Wiktionary for the idiom Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. If you are knowledgeable and would like to contribute, please do so on the idioms discussion page. Thank you WritersCramp (talk) 19:02, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Gods
here Small Text


 * 1) REDIRECT Celebrate the world —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.193.233.66 (talk) 19:32, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Hypothetical Interpretations
Perhaps the four horsemen could also represent the progression of a terminal condition. Let us assume that the horsemen themselves represent the affliction, and the horses are the afflicted. If The first arrives on a white horse and is associated with pestilence, that could represent the infection of a pure body. The second horseman and his violent red steed could represent the subsequent fever, a flushing of blood through the skin and/or perhaps increased aggression. the third horseman on his sickly black horse, associated with famine, could represent an insatiable hunger and thirst as the body is consumed by the disease; perhaps the afflicted loses weight, organs fail, the body itself begins to decompose, and they are in constant pain as they become increasingly weaker. Finally, Death on the pale-green horse, whose color is often associated with that of a corpse, is when the afflicted dies. Perhaps the statement that "Hades follows" involves the emotional trauma of those closest to the victim, and/or the spread of the illness to others.

It is also possible to interpret the four horsemen as levels in a caste system. The first horseman, on a white horse with crown, is the monarch. the second horseman, on red horse with sword, are law enforcement and/or the monarch's warriors. the third horsemen, on black horse with scales, are the civilians and/or middle-class. Finally, the fourth horseman, death on the pale horse, are the lower-class/untouchables, or some equivalent thereof.

With regards to the article itself, one part describes the third horseman as portly and his mount as sickly, representing gluttony and hunger, respectively. in the same paragraph, perhaps it would be beneficial if the second horseman's interpretation were elaborated as well, with the horseman and his mount representing violence and anger, respectively.

your thoughts? 98.221.25.52 (talk) 03:59, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Not "damaging" the oil and the wine
The interpretations for the concept of "damage" given in the article are good and thought-provoking. One is missing, however. The intended meaning may be much simpler than those previously suggested. That is, “damage” in the sense of "to touch so as to diminish." Meaning, quite simply, that no one shall be permitted to have any oil or wine with their bread. In the Mediterranean region during Biblical times, oil and wine were common household foodstuffs, not luxury items reserved for the wealthy. Oil and wine were two commonly used sops for bread. The passage may simply be meant to suggest that people shall be left to eat “unbuttered” bread -- a rather hard swallow.

NB: the term “unbuttered” is used here in the historical sense of the word. That is, to be accompanied by condiments from a buttery, a buttery being barrel stores of durable goods, usually fermented liquids and oils.

I do not have the time to go out and gather supporting citations for this interpretation of the Biblical phrase in question. I would appreciate other scholars doing so such that this interpretation may be rightly included within the main article. Thank you. MrWhysir (talk) 00:02, 27 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Isn't this splitting hairs, though? >.> Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 01:27, 14 December 2010 (UTC)


 * How is this splitting hairs? This point adds a different perspective and a different interpretation. Rajakiit (talk) 14:43, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

The talk page (wiki vets can skip this [maybe])
Firstly, I'd like to remind everyone of these guideline, per Wikipedia's official decrees:
 * Start new topics at the bottom of the page: If you put a post at the top of the page, it is confusing and can also get easily overlooked. The latest topic should be the one at the bottom of the page. (To do this, click the + or “new section” button at the top of the page.)
 * Making a new heading for a new topic: It will then be clearly separated into its own section and will also appear in the TOC (table of contents) at the top of the page. A heading is easy to create with == on either side of the words, as in == Heading == . The "Post a comment" feature can be used to do this automatically. (If you are using the default Wikipedia:Skin, you can use the "+" tab next to the "Edit this page" tab instead.) Enter a subject/heading in the resulting edit page, and it will automatically become the section heading.
 * Keep headings on topics related to the article. It should be clear from the heading which aspect of the article you wish to discuss. Do not write simply "This article is wrong". Address the specific issue you want to discuss.
 * Never address other users in a heading: A heading should invite all editors to respond to the subject addressed. Headings may be about a user's edits but not specifically to a user. Also never use headings to attack other users. While NPA and AGF apply everywhere at Wikipedia, using headings to attack other users by naming them in the heading is especially egregious, since it places their name prominently in the Table of Contents, and can thus enter that heading in the edit summary of the page's edit history. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 02:36, 30 September 2010

The article (or "front page", as I call it)
The main issues with this baby are the same as when I was watching it regularly, I think. It needs a more dedicated, research-prone editor to make it shine (and keep it that way). The primary concern for me is ensuring that the "lineup" of Horsemen stays Biblically accurate. Pestilence is not a Horsemen. The closest equivalent to that name is Plague, and it was given to a the last rider (Death), not the first (Conquest). Perhaps the introdice can be fixed to reference this, without implying (as past intros did) that Conquest is a mutable name/element.

Really, I'm not some zealot. I just want things to be accurate. Like, movies. Only viewing the thing will confirm plot elements summarized in articles. Making sure such data is clear, correct and neutral can thus be hard (especially on opening day). Here, though, we do have a reliable source text. Is any Horseman but Death explicitly named? No, but all the other names follow the text. The conquerer is Conquest, the warmonger is War, and the guy starving people is Famine. Simple, right? Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 02:36, 30 September 2010

However, as with most leitmotifs, the "Four Horsemen" is more culturally complex than this topic's treatment within its purported original source within the Christian Bible. The notion of a definitive literalist interpretation of an English translation of an originally non-English source text is untenable as there is no straightforward one-to-one definitive translation of verbal/conceptual vocabulary between the two languages involved. Furthermore, many layers of cultural meaning have accumulated over the millennia, and many (re)interpretations of this subject have had profound cultural impact. The article is meritorious in its discussion of the well-documented fact that there are different interpretations, some theological and some popular, of these symbols of cultural ubiquity. To elide mention of them because they do not conform to one particular translation in conjunction with a literalist theological perspective would be an untenable form of censorship. Even if some of the various interpretations that have arisen and attained cultural presence and support are incorrect from a particular perspective, they nonetheless exist, and information about the alternative uses/interpretations/perspectives should be offered in any good encyclopedic presentation. As long as the material presented herein has legitimate source documentation, then those manifestations have real existence and can be of strong cultural import, and thus are worthy of mention here. In fact, this article will benefit greatly by expanding as far as possible beyond one particular Biblical interpretation so as to document the vastness of this leitmotif's impact upon our collective cultural imagination. MrWhysir (talk) 23:29, 26 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll be honest. My primary concern with this article is ensuring that the popular readings of the subject are represented (and sourced). By that, I mean presenting the information as it was read in the Bible. I've read these particular book (Revelations) in 4 major translations. There aren't many substantive differences between each. The Greek word translated as "Conquer" could also be rendered as "Victory". Nevertheless, "Conquer" is used in three out of four versions. I don't think this is a big difference. So, I'm not concerned with the minutiae of "this word actually means something similar, but different." Sorry.


 * And ultimately, I think this article represents views that are in line with all of them. You might say there should be more in the way of alternate views. Maybe so, but since neither you nor I wants to bother sourcing such things, I don't see the point in debating it. The article is what it is. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 01:27, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Is there any particular reason to mention and link to one small group that has a specific view of the relevance to contemporary events? Better simply to say that other groups support this. Otherwise, sounds too much like a commerical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lynxx2 (talk • contribs) 19:00, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The individual is notable, so it's not promotion but simply stating what a notable individual has to say on the subject. The source only indicates that he believes that, not "some groups." Ian.thomson (talk) 19:05, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Role of the First Horseman in Stuttgarter Erklärungsbibel vs. role of the Second Horseman
In the text for the First Horseman it says
 * The German Stuttgarter Erklärungsbibel casts him as civil war and internal strife.

and in the text for the Second Horseman it says
 * The second horseman may represent the war of conquest as opposed to civil war that the first horseman brings.

Doesn't that seem backward? The First Horseman is called Conquest and the Second Horseman is called War. Rajakiit (talk) 14:57, 16 February 2011 (UTC) I have the exact same question. Or perhaps it's the translation of the horsemen into English that is incorrect (ie. the first white horse is War (civil strife), and the second red horse is Conquest (foreign invasion))? Another possibility is that the order of the white and red horses was switched by accident in the translations from the original text (ie. the red horse (War) was first, the white horse (Conquest) second)  Acefox (talk) 01:46, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems a previous editor has mixed things up. Several sources identify the white horse with wars of conquest, and the red horse with civil strife. -- 202.124.73.21 (talk) 22:59, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

The name of the second rider
Slaughter is more appropriate than War I think, because:
 * It's taken directly from the text ("slay"), and therefore avoids contentious interpretation.
 * It's more widely used in scholarly circles.
 * It's more general ("Slaughter" includes "War", but also includes other forms of violence).
 * It avoids picking an interpretation of the first rider, and hence is more NPOV (the second rider tends to be called "War" by those people who don't see the first rider in terms of military conquest). -- 202.124.73.58 (talk) 07:09, 24 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The book by Mounce cited in the article also gives arguments (based on the Greek text) for this horseman referring to civil conflict rather than war per se. -- 202.124.88.183 (talk) 11:19, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Firstly, no, it's not. "Slay" is not the same as–or even vaguely related to–"slaughter". (They don't even have a common etymology.)
 * Second, I see no basis for that. Mostly, it seems like you've cited a couple books which use different verbs. What we need is sources which use specific names. The vast majority of those have opted for "War", period. Besides, I'd hardly call a few books a scholarly consensus.
 * Third, I'll give you generality, but I'm not sure that's a positive. Death is violent–especially where the Horsemen are concerned–and Conquest carries a weapon. If anything, renaming War makes him seem more generic and redundant to the others. Put simply, changing the names does not change the text. Those who see Conquest and War as overlapping will almost always have that perception. We could call them "Victory" and "Defeat". People would still insist they're too similar. Whatever. It's not something we should be worrying about. The text is what it is.
 * Fourth, honestly, the main issue for me is the name used in the intro and majority of the article. While all this stuff about an alternative name/interpretation might be okay for the "second rider" section, it looks out of place elsewhere. I mean, like I was trying to say in an earlier edit summary, it's hard enough to keep people from changing the name "Conquest" every other week. The last thing we need is another fight over titles. If you want to mean that War could also be referred to as "Slaughter," that's fine. Just not in the intro. It clashes with the rest of the article and citations, most of which still refer to the second rider as War.
 * All that said, I've parsed the article, added some refs and tried to strike a compromise (even in the intro). "Conquest, War, etc." is still what we should lead with, (and still something people would try to contradict,) but I won't say we can't mention alternate names/takes. First example, Death as "Plague" and Conquest as "Victory". It just shouldn't be treated as the common interpretation.
 * Basically, what the only principle(s) guiding how this article looks should be:
 * What the Bible says, verbatim.
 * Common interpretations which follow the text, such as those that name the Riders and discuss their natures.
 * Beyond that, everything becomes a bit iffy. Neither of us may be "wrong," per se, but I'd rather stick with an approach that keeps the intro static.
 * Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 21:47, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Third Opinion
There seems to be an edit war over the citations to www.apocalypsis.org. Seems to me clearly not a WP:RS, but also seems to be a clasic case for dispute resolution.

If it is a WP:RS, the tag should be removed, if it is not the citation should be removed. I note that there are plenty of reliable book references already. 202.126.111.22 (talk) 00:54, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * No discussion was found, 3O has been declined. May I suggest that you refer the actions of the editor in question who is claimed to be conducting an Edit War to the appropriate noticeboard. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 04:52, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * In any case, the site is actually www.apocalipsis.org. And it's clearly a WP:FRINGE site, with bizarre 9/11 stuff. The citation needs to go 139.130.39.54 (talk) 08:37, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Eh. I wasn't concerned with the entirety of the site. Whatever, though. Link's gone. Really, I think this was less a war edits than laziness. The simple answer was to add/find new citations and move around some old ones. I've admitted to be lazy and/or busy these days, so... yeah. No clue why the GIPU could do all this bureaucratic stuff but not just fix the problem. Oh well. Done. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 16:36, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

"book"/"scroll"
In the King James Version, The Revelation 5:1 refers to a "book sealed with seven seals". In later and recent Bible versions, it is a "scroll". Therefore, to cover both, it is referred to as the "book"/"scroll". - Brad Watson, Miami 65.3.238.158 (talk) 02:29, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

the most evident explanation viewd in its context.
When viewed in the historical situation in which the writers were situated, it is easy to see the most evident explanation: - A king (or usurper of the throne) is on a conquest spree: spreading his point of view as the righteous bringer of good news. (A new age under a new reign) - This conquest brings the inevitable terrors of war: slaughter, havoc and mayhem. - The lands or regions suffering these wars are plagued by the typical result of foraging armies: famine. Whine and oil are excellent items to give to your (mercenary) troops together with other loot (and food) - Famine combined with the terrors of war lead to a massive death toll, compared to every day hardship and occasional natural disaster)

For people living in those times, there was nothing worse than this: no amount of praying, no sheltering in religious buildings could spare you the evil of war. Especially if those conquesting hordes follow another religion.

The story of the mythical figure Jesus breaks those four seals and unleashing these four riders could be interpreted as the ultimate evil set forth on man with disregard of his/her religious beliefs. Only in death will the devout follower be rewarded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naughtynimitz (talk • contribs) 08:29, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:CITE and WP:NOR. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:18, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Another Possibility for the Role of the White Horseman
I'm surprised not to see the general Evangelical Protestant interpretation mentioned here at all. In that interpretation, the rider on the white horse is seen as the Antichrist; hence, his attributes look somewhat like Christ's. His role is to conquer, and hence he is seen as a great victor. He conquers the world, but without an excessive amount of bloodshed. The red horse is warfare, and it comes second because it represents rebellion against the Antichrist's rule, when his kingdom begins to unravel into civil war, leading to unimaginable bloodshed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GnatsFriend (talk • contribs) 02:32, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * New stuff goes at the bottom. If you can find a reliable source (as described here) to summarize and cite, we could add that.  Ian.thomson (talk) 03:21, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Bible versions?
What Bible version(s) is/are being used here? The article says "NIV", but the wording differs from the NIV in some cases. -- 202.124.73.21 (talk) 22:34, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It's probably supposed to be all NIV, I'll get around to straightening it out in a bit (although you're welcome to), but sometimes people change translations to different ones without changing the name of the translation. It's an unfortunate problem with any article that deals with any translation issues, especially Bible related articles. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:59, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually it's fine, it's just the older edition of the NIV. -- 202.124.73.21 (talk) 07:15, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

The NIV, in all its versions is not the most published version of the Holy Bible, as the article claims. It is the Authorised Version, also referred to as the King James or KJV. Most scholars consider the NIV unsuitable for serious study due to inconsistencies in methods of translation used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.203.101.28 (talk) 20:14, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

A modern interpretation
One of the articles subarticles lacks any sources or verification. Its entitled "a modern interpretation"

It almost seems as if this is merely an editors personal interpretation. I recommend it be taken down.

Its written informally and gets quite dramatic. Not wikipedia material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saintobalys (talk • contribs) 08:36, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. That was added a few days ago, and I just removed it. Johnuniq (talk) 08:46, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

"One should mention"
I've removed the uncited "One should mention" paragraph again. It would be fine to provide a contrasting viewpoint from one or more other scholars, but an uncited criticism like this is just original research. It also doesn't really make sense. What does "out of any religious-scientific relations" mean? Mattflaschen - Talk 16:33, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * One should mention - that's a good call. Rklawton (talk) 18:04, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

"Conquest" horse????
Shouldnt that be pestilence/disease? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.114.72.103 (talk) 18:34, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * That's a very modern interpretation, relatively speaking. It's noted in the article. Rklawton (talk) 18:05, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

In-line notes
The in-line notes that say "DO NOT add Pestilence, that is a later misinterpretation not based on the source text!" and the like seem a tad inappropriate to me, and a little OR. Interpretation of ancient texts is secondary research, and it seems that whoever is adding those notes is privileging his or her own interpretation of the text over a very common interpretation. In the context of mythological figures, it's a little 19th century to suggest that a popular interpretation is wrong just because it's different from the original source text. "In most accounts..." doesn't seem like an accurate way to summarise the different viewpoints. I would suggest, "academic interpretations based on Biblical text" say Conquest, whereas "another popular interpretation" says Pestilence. --62.189.73.197 (talk) 13:05, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Origin of "Pestilence"
I notice one pretty big gap in the article: why and when did people start referring to Pestilence as a horseman? It doesn't seem to be a recent misconception (unless you consider Dürer recent), so how did this idea begin to take root, and how did this idea with apparently little to no textual basis become so dominant in popular reckonings? --BDD (talk) 23:21, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I've edited the lede to have "Conquest" as the white horse, which is what the cited source says. I'm not sure where "Pestilence" comes from. The MMA caption for the Dürer woodcut names "Pestilence" as the rider with a bow, but this seems to me to be an error, as pestilence/plague doesn't seem to relate to a bow at all. Reliable sources name Dürer's 4th horse as "Conquest," and pestilence/plague is in fact one of the attributes of the pale horse. -- 202.124.75.225 (talk) 11:49, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The oldest example I can find of this (mis)interpretation of the white horse as "Pestilence" is a 1916 novel by Vicente Blasco Ibáñez. Given the two films of the novel, this may have started the idea. -- 202.124.73.112 (talk) 08:42, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Apollo is associated with the bow, which he used to spread pestilence: http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad1.htm#_Toc328052743
 * I added text and sources for the Apollo precedent as well as the Rig-vedic deity Rudra. The ancient association between arrows and disease supports an early source of the white horseman as pestilence interpretation. -Wormcast (talk) 02:46, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I think that the pestilence interpretation should be given under the White Horse section, next to the other two interpretations given. It seems odd to pull this out and leave the others there, particularly since there is at least a prima facie case for there being an ancient basis to this interpretation. What say you? Wormcast (talk) 04:26, 30 January 2014 (UTC)


 * did this. Wormcast (talk) 14:57, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Biblically supported or not the Pestilence interpretation is the most culturally relevant and herefore the most important — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.121.6.113 (talk) 22:02, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Google translate
besides incorrectly identifying ζυγὸν (look it up in a greek dictionary...) or "yoke" as "scales" which is a popular error in contemporary translations if one is open to the original one might consider allowing this part of the text it's own words... wikipedia already has the weakness of allowing for pathological disinformationists and kith to manipulate facts to suit popular versions of truth... frankly this article is so wrong as to be unusable and I might request its removal... this is my bible as well and frankly some of the opinions people have of it are reinforced by a rather well intentioned version of expertise which falls humorously short of meaningful. Besides murky and muddling these errors are frustrating the bibles efforts to allow understanding. unless -of course- you want to cause harm why don't you check your translation using a third "uninvolved" party? good luck. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.61.131 (talk • contribs)
 * Wikipedia does not use original research. What you found on Google translate does not beat out what professionally published mainstream academic works have assessed is the correct translation for KOINE Greek. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:31, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

rather arbitrary analysis allows that conclusion yet in every other part of the bible the word is correctly tranlslated as zygon/yoke not zygos/scales... the error on the part of the translator is in conflict with the actual greek wording ... clearly a yoke is different from a scale... to ask a sacred religious text as this to be doctored into compliance with popular opinion is to violate it. for the by the way Thayer's Greek Lexicon:STRONGS NT 2218: ζυγός ζυγός, ζυγοῦ, ὁ, for which in Greek writings before Polybius τό ζυγόν was more common (from ζεύγνυμι); 1. a yoke; a. properly, such as is put on draught-cattle. b. metaphorically, used of any burden or bondage: as that Of slavery,

so even strongs, thayers etc. agree with me on this, is this wiki to be factual or ? does what I have found on Thayer's Greek Lexicon or Strongs biblical concordance matter to this editor? Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears THE words of the prophecy of this scroll: IF anyone adds anything TO them, God will add to that person THE plagues described IN this scroll. 19 AND IF anyone takes words away from this scroll OF prophecy, God will take away from that person any share IN the tree OF life and in the Holy City, which ARE described in this scroll.

In short let the words alone. meaning even popular translators are not authorized by this book to manipulate it... thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.61.131 (talk • contribs)
 * No. Wikipedia does not use original research, we rely on mainstream academic sources written by real historians instead of your analysis based on outdated sources and an honestly ridiculous confusion of how translation works.  Ian.thomson (talk) 01:41, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

I would like to suggest that wikipedia remove the article for the reason that it is poorly rooted within inaccurate opinions held by outdated expert historians. As it stands anyone reading it will discover it's worthless. remove it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.61.131 (talk) 02:49, 27 July 2016 (UTC) the four horseman article is in need of removal. It is offensive to read this mistranslated "mainstream" crap. besides contradictions such as the lion is the lamb and etc. a general dislike for the venerable book and a pointed agenda of dating or worse yet modernizing it makes it inaccurate and weak. Its own desires to remain unadulterated seems ignored. My bible tolerates less of this shabby garbage than Wikipedia's version for some reason. It would be better to remove this crap. rather than risk defacing the good book. Please respect the bible. thankyou.

Please see WP:NOTCENSORED. Wikipedia is not censored. If you have a legitimate concern over the content that would be actionable under policy. Take it to the article talk page. --Cameron11598 (Talk) 03:14, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

so in asking wikipedia to maintain standards of accuracy the vow comes forth "Wikipedia is not censored" ha-ha-ha... seriously this makes me smile. This article is incorrect and offensively. remove it for the sake of your crediblity. It's expertise is laughable. commentary lazy. points pointless. You are damaging a sacred text with liberties it specifically requested omission of. If I may say so the "censorship" I am suggesting is simply not. Correctly represent the bible...with THE bible... using its actual words not a version suited to an expert (debatable) translator. Besides being insulting to intelligent people, quietly affirming false facts with colluding sources then describing truth as censorship. Any serious bible scholar can easily find in any reputable place the word for zygon meaning "yoke" as in: Matthew 11:29 "Take My yoke(zygon) upon you and learn"... evident wisdom for "experts" this is truly a laughable version of encyclopedic article. the bible cannot use it's own words to represent its meaning? Please remove, correct, or at least admit the obvious error in presuming to insert words into a document of this gravity. ho-ho-ho. such trolling! good heavens! oh no we need to be accurate?! censorship! stop clowning around ha ha. what a joke!

should Mathew 11:29 read " take my scales(zygos) upon you and learn? seems silly. to me. though. snakey. like scaley. scaley snakes scaling ladders scaling stacks of expert crap.

What this buffoon would like to add is that he appreciates the appearance of genuine interest in this most challenging of texts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.61.131 (talk • contribs)


 * Your suggestion that this page be deleted because it doesn't agree with your unprofessional and unaccredited opinions is in direct contradiction to WP:NOTCENSORED. See also WP:No personal attacks -- if you aren't willing to communicate with others in a civilized manner, you don't belong here.  Ian.thomson (talk) 19:17, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

horae apocalypticae
how does a text written by a discredited biblical scholar qualify for entry here? this entry is irrelevant except to illustrate the folly of this obscure independent. should be removed.?Wikipedia does not care about you or me (or Edward Bishop Elliott) being qualified scholars. Wikipedia is not a scholarly site, but a summary of sources that speak for themselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AaronottoJennings (talk • contribs) 04:18, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Lion of Judah
Editor User:69.178.61.131 removed mention of the Lion of Judah from the lead. I agree that the text is confusing, since it appears to equate the Lion of Judah with the Lamb of god, but since the lion is in the text (Rev 5:5), I consider this removal to be unjustified.

Also, User:69.178.61.131, please follow WP:TALK guidelines. Not signing your additions and inserting your additions into unexpected places in previous conversations makes following the discussion here much more difficult.  &#8212;jmcgnh  (talk) (contribs)  07:03, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

While the lion is mentioned; “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” ...the scrolls are opened by someone who is of the tribe of Judah... the lion of the tribe of Judah is (Elohim) one of the four animals of the earth from which humanity was made. in Genesis "God said, “Let the land produce living creatures ... then (to the living creatures) God said, “Let us make mankind in our image". the lamb in the throne room is standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures (from Genesis) and the elders. The first living creature was like a lion and is the ancestor of the lamb. He is a seraphim, the lion of the tribe of Judah. So while this means the lion of the tribe of Judah has triumphed, it is through his heir, the lamb. this substantiates a few things the first is that this messiah is of the Jewish family of David thus he is a true Jewish messiah according to Jewish prophecy... the Jewish messiah is to be of Judah as King David was... secondly it allows for the lion of Judah who is a fallen seraphim to restore his place in heaven with God ... thus fulfilling Quranic prophecies concerning Iblis and the end times return to God... then it gives us insight into the nature of the messiah himself who is to be initiated into the mysteries of death by his symbolic slaughter at the claws of this lion. "Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain," the (symbolic) slaughter of the lamb is through the return of the lion who is the lamb's ancestor. The Lamb is "dead" and in an afterlife world where he is to be anointed by A multitude...Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” And so the Messiah discovers his secret role... up until that point no one not even the lamb knew who he was... “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." Mathew 24:36 So with much fear and trepidation everyone fell down to worship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.61.131 (talk) 09:22, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, none of that justifies removing the Lion of Judah from the lead of this article.  &#8212;jmcgnh  (talk) (contribs)  19:46, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I've already got the block window open with WP:NOTHERE as the reason. Just waiting for one more example.  Ian.thomson (talk) 19:53, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

makes no difference to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.61.131 (talk) 20:29, 27 July 2016 (UTC) in some context one can include the lion. I might suggest you block me. save me some trouble. My best efforts are of no avail. reasonable conversation seems unlikely... the article is in error. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.61.131 (talk) 23:10, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * If that's what you think, you should just leave then and not be a bother to the site. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:18, 28 July 2016 (UTC)1

"I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals." that is what it says. no one but the lamb. whoever keeps adding the lion is not quoting from the book. I'm not just trying to be stubborn.Wikipedia does not care about you or me being qualified scholars. Wikipedia is not a scholarly site, but a summary of sources that speak for themselves...What the Bible says, verbatim.
 * please follow WP:TALK guidelines, in particular the part about signing your additions.
 * I understood your stance here to be that you were willing to go along with the consensus view, at which point I undid your removal. Apparently that was a misunderstanding; I was surprised to see that you immediately undid it. I suggest that the discussion here continue before we get into rule-breaking territory.
 * This is a text widely acknowledged to be difficult. The apparent identification between the Lion and the Lamb is worth mentioning in the lead.  &#8212;jmcgnh  (talk) (contribs)  04:51, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

the lion did not open the seal. yes he has a relationship with the lamb but the lion did not unseal anything. Yes the text is difficult. if you want to incude the lion we should do so by quoting the proper verse which is revelation 5:5... then elucidate what the relationship between the two might be. 69.178.61.131 (talk) 04:55, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

death or thanatos?
Because i'm wanting to keep an open mind here i would like to ask why we are linking the rider on the pale horse to "death" when he is better known as "Thanatos" remember that the bible gives his name as thanatos... thanatos ( the name) is an actual greek mythological figure whereas death (state of being dead) 'is' not a person but more of a state of being. I'm inclined to believe that we should not second guess the bible's naming of the pale horse rider. The name should remain Thanatos... 69.178.61.13169.178.61.131 (talk) 05:28, 30 July 2016 (UTC) (talk) 05:21, 30 July 2016 (UTC) So better stop me cause im gonna do it...69.178.61.131 (talk) 05:21, 30 July 2016 (UTC)http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/6-8.htm69.178.61.131 AaronottoJennings (talk) 05:48, 30 July 2016 (UTC)(talk) 05:28, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 * This is getting pretty confusing. Are you, AaronottoJennings, claiming the edits by User:69.178.61.131? It would simplify things if you consistently made your edits while logged in.
 * Part of having an open mind is being open to the idea that this WP article attempts to represent a broad collection of (previously published) interpretations without representing that one or the other is the "correct" one. In a collection that includes Pestilence, War, Famine, it makes sense to use the English word Death.  &#8212;jmcgnh  (talk) (contribs)  06:32, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 * AaronottoJennings is 69.178, per and Jennings's other behavior.
 * Between "So better stop me cause im gonna do it..." and "I might suggest you block me. save me some trouble", his continued insistence that his Bible (and his alone) is the Word of God and the constant refusal to acknowledge WP:NOR or WP:RS all lead me to believe that the user is either incapable of or uninterested in working collaboratively. The screed he has posted on his user page is the final nail in the coffin. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:48, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Behavior was not uniformly disruptive – I had reached out in response to the user page screed in an attempt to rein in some of that disruptiveness. I'm afraid that it will take some time to comb through the remaining attempted changes to revert the ones that don't belong. "Lion", "scales", and "Death" are ones to look at in this article. Elsewhere I see some stuff about hypertension.  &#8212;jmcgnh  (talk) (contribs)  07:31, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

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conquest is not one of the four horseman.
Pestilence, War, Famine, and Death are the four horseman of the apocalypse.
 * Seconded — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.121.6.113 (talk) 22:00, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I also have know the "popular" knowledge to be Pestilence or Plague as the first Horseman. I believe that is the most common understanding to those who have not done extensive research.  Would love to see the article reference that.  Apriestofgix (talk) 21:45, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
 * To the IP editors: There's some collections of books all called "The Bible." In the versions of the Bible used by Christians, there's a book called "Revelation" or "Apocalypse."  In the the sixth chapter, the Four Horsemen are described for the first time.  The first horseman is described with "behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer."  Nothing about pestilence there.  The rest (war, famine, and death) are close enough, though.  The "Pestilence" version is a later mistake.  Maybe you could try learning about the Bible by actually reading it instead of getting your information from video games and movies.
 * it would be nice for the article to explain how the later misinterpretation (combined with a reordering) came up, as long as it's reliably sourced. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:37, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Oddly enough I can't seem to find anything that cites the change. It seems there are some references as it being interpreted as Pestilence due to the bow representing Plague, but nothing thereafter.  Most theologians seem to agree that Conquest is the name, but differ on what that actually means, while the majority of the media (TV, movies etc.) reference Pestilence.  I assume this is simply due to it thematically fitting better to have 3 "negatives" followed by death, but can't find any documentation to back that up.  However it might be worth mentioning that due to the prevalent use of Pestilence in pop culture, that is where the "common knowledge" incorrectly comes from.  I know the article addresses this to an extent, but due to the continued requests here to fix this "error" improvements could be made to help explain this a bit more I believe.Apriestofgix (talk) 18:13, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
 * This would be my proposed edit:


 * (Current): Although some interpretations differ, in most accounts, the four riders are seen as symbolizing Conquest (Sometimes also identified as Pestilence, the Christ or the Antichrist),War, Famine, and Death, respectively.


 * (Proposal): Though Theologians and Popular Culture differ on the first horseman, the four riders are often seen as symbolizing Conquest or Pestilence (and less frequently, the Christ or the Antichrist), War, Famine, and Death, respectively.


 * I then think that leaving the section below as written would be correct. It gives a good point of view from both sides.  However I feel that the opening should be more inclusive to what readers will assume, and thus help setup the facts that are laid out below.Apriestofgix (talk) 23:49, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

It is appropriate to call the first White horse "Conquest" - Rev. 6:2 - "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer." It mentions "conquest" - It says nothing of pestilence... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:204:C001:5B08:7CB8:90B7:AE46:DE5E (talk) 06:06, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Correcting Color of Death's Horse
I've changed the Greek text from "χλωμóς" to "χλωρóς", and changed the transliteration accordingly. "χλωρóς", meaning "pale green" or "green" (from which we get "chlorine") is the correct reading, which can be easily verified by looking at any number of Greek texts of the New Testament, such as the Textus Receptus (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=6&v=8&t=MGNT#8), The Morphological Greek New Testament (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=6&v=8&t=TR#8), and the Online Greek Interlinear Bible (http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev6.pdf) among others. Akasanof (talk) 05:35, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * You are right, of course. Is χλωμóς even a word? -- 202.124.73.21 (talk) 23:04, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Some mention of actual horse colors, such as dun, palomino, or roan, should be added; the others are natural horse colors, allowing for 'white' as commonly used, 'red' for a chestnut, etc. Chloros can mean yellow, a range that includes several possibilities.Cyranorox (talk) 20:41, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
 * This analysis offers another insight:
 * It is more generally rendered pale, but this is still less adequate to its real spirit; it means that green-sick, wan, and exanimate hue which is pathognomically descriptive of the disease termed chlorosis.
 * Think palish- but something to remind us it was once green, perhaps?--Lmstearn (talk) 04:11, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Most interpretations or most *official* interpretations
The article says that "most interpretations" identify the horsemen as "Conquest, war, famine, and death". This may be misleading. While that is likely the opinion of most legitimate theologians and denominational dogmas I had always gotten the impression that the typical person was more likely to be familiar with the first as pestilence, however upopular the idea may be with church authorities and theologians — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.121.6.113 (talk) 04:32, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
 * There might want to be a new section on interpretations per culture. For example, this, of Nordic origin:
 * And they were empowered to exterminate a fourth part of the earth with sword, and with famine, and with pestilence, and with the wild beasts of the earth.
 * It may not necessarily be construed as a depiction of the cardinal #horse order, however…--Lmstearn (talk) 05:10, 24 November 2018 (UTC)